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EverQuest Next

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General Discussion  » How do you envision EQN to balance PvE and PvP - A Poll

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99 posts found
  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 650

7/01/13 3:54:52 AM#41
Originally posted by Margulis
It's interesting that the VAST majority want a PvE focused experience, but it seems like PvP people are vastly more vocal on forums. 

It is also interesting how so many of them interpret muddling along cheerfully with your PvP flag off as being selfish while ganking is not.  Also positively interacting with people in a cooperative manner becomes "socially awkward" while sneaking up on someone, killing them and tea-bagging their corpse all the while yelling noob noob noob becomes the epitome of good social behavior.

  Akerbeltz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 157

7/01/13 4:16:41 AM#42
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Margulis
It's interesting that the VAST majority want a PvE focused experience, but it seems like PvP people are vastly more vocal on forums. 

It is also interesting how so many of them interpret muddling along cheerfully with your PvP flag off as being selfish while ganking is not.  Also positively interacting with people in a cooperative manner becomes "socially awkward" while sneaking up on someone, killing them and tea-bagging their corpse all the while yelling noob noob noob becomes the epitome of good social behavior.

 

A person who lacks in rational arguments will tend to oversimplistic extremism. You are obsessed with ganking ffs.

 

As I've already said: there's much, much more in a FFA OWPvP model with a strong consequence system (RPG narratives, politics, interdependency networks, worthy trading on a risk/reward basis, bounty-hunting...) than the possibility of being ganked. About the latter, I emphasize the "consequence systems", "perma-ban system", "server with flag/unflag for PvP rules" parts.

 

An atributte of the short-sighted is that the trees won't allow them to see the forest.

 

Now, the choir of the chickens can keep on with the ganking hysteria. *cluck-cluck, bok-bok*

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 650

7/01/13 4:35:00 AM#43
Originally posted by Akerbeltz
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Margulis
It's interesting that the VAST majority want a PvE focused experience, but it seems like PvP people are vastly more vocal on forums. 

It is also interesting how so many of them interpret muddling along cheerfully with your PvP flag off as being selfish while ganking is not.  Also positively interacting with people in a cooperative manner becomes "socially awkward" while sneaking up on someone, killing them and tea-bagging their corpse all the while yelling noob noob noob becomes the epitome of good social behavior.

A person who lacks in rational arguments will tend to oversimplistic extremism. You are obsessed with ganking ffs.

As I've already said: there's much, much more in a FFA OWPvP model with a strong consequence system (RPG narratives, politics, interdependency networks, worthy trading on a risk/reward basis, bounty-hunting...) than the possibility of being ganked. About the latter, I emphasize the "consequence systems", "perma-ban system", "server with flag/unflag for PvP rules" parts.

An atributte of the short-sighted is that the trees won't allow them to see the forest.

Now, the choir of the chickens can keep on with the ganking hysteria. *cluck-cluck, bok-bok*

The interesting thing about having "consequences" for ganking is that some poor sod has to be ganked before the consequences start to kick in. From what I have seen in fact lots of poor sods get ganked before the consequences kick in.  As for the consequences they often look like rewards for those that like to gank, prestige badges, special features etc. Also "bounting hunting" is simply rewarding ganking the gankers.

As for flag/unflag for PvP how can a system that included this be called FFA OWPvP? In fact the main difference between flag/unflag PvP and FFA PvP seems to me to be ganking.

While I do not like PvP I regard consensual PvP or a game that provides separate PvP and PvE servers to be a fine compromise.  Even to the extent that having a FFA OWPvP server in a game does not bother me, I will not play on it but if there are enough people who like that sort of thing let them have it.

  Akerbeltz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 157

7/01/13 5:24:34 AM#44
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Akerbeltz
 

The interesting thing about having "consequences" for ganking is that some poor sod has to be ganked before the consequences start to kick in. From what I have seen in fact lots of poor sods get ganked before the consequences kick in.  As for the consequences they often look like rewards for those that like to gank, prestige badges, special features etc. Also "bounting hunting" is simply rewarding ganking the gankers.

As for flag/unflag for PvP how can a system that included this be called FFA OWPvP? In fact the main difference between flag/unflag PvP and FFA PvP seems to me to be ganking.

While I do not like PvP I regard consensual PvP or a game that provides separate PvP and PvE servers to be a fine compromise.  Even to the extent that having a FFA OWPvP server in a game does not bother me, I will not play on it but if there are enough people who like that sort of thing let them have it.

 

With regards to your first line: any game pretending to survive and keep on thrilling the players on the long run must work on the basis of the risk-reward equation - risk-reward is what creates interdependency, brings community together and promotes true heroism, on top of being more realistic from a RPG perspective. The alternative would be reward-reward, consensual-everything and extremely convenient: That is the crap we've been getting for the last 8 years, games so shallow and unfilling that don't have meat nor soul to last for more than 3 months.

 

I see the rest of your paragraph as highly especulative and exaggerated: I haven't seen a consequence system as the one you mention (a consequence system that rewards ganking in a RPG game is just stupid). Your comment about bounty hunting is extremely reduccionist in my view.

 

I agree with you that a compromise must be made: My bet was a PVE oriented server where players would freely choose where/when to flag/unflag for PvP and another server with full FFA (with strong conequences ala UO, or an EVE similar system). 

 

Even a PVE exclusive server for the PvP obnoxious would be fine I guess - although, I insist that removing systems that give a game its appeal on the long-run is never a good idea. All of us lose, the players and the RPG genre.

 

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

  ice-vortex

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

7/01/13 1:09:19 PM#45
Originally posted by Ecoces
Originally posted by Akerbeltz

No, you cannot have sandbox in a PvE only game.

sure you can, SWG Pre-CU was a very PVE oriented sandbox(oh please argue with me that its not a sandbox). Sandbox does automatically mean FFA PVP, nor does it mean no PVP at all either.

 

thats the problem with this forum is people on it don't even know what a sandbox game is.

SWG was also not a very good game. When people praise SWG, it was only a handful of features that they praise. People love to wallow in nostalgia.

  User Deleted
7/01/13 1:47:54 PM#46
Originally posted by Akerbeltz

No, you cannot have sandbox in a PvE only game.

 

In fact sandbox by its nature implies FFA OWPvP, as it provides with the only model for players to engage in complex interaction narratives: rogue factions, treason, espionage, counter-intelligence, piracy, mercs, bounty-hunting, worthy trading, serious politics... That is, the only viable way of ""endgame". And this is what sandbox is about, isn't it?

 

Ideally, this system (OWPvP FFA) would go along a complex consequence/penalty system to prevent/punish ganking and abuse. Removing it would dramatically damage the game's long-term sustainibility, it'd be much less game and an immersion breaker from an RPG point of view. In other words:  you'd castrate the sandbox to turn it into another thing, something quite dull and lame i can tell you.

 

Why so many people don't understand this?

 

I'm going to chime in on this because it boggles me to no end...   

 

I'm just not sure why anyone thinks that sandbox and PvP of any kind are related or implied to need one for the other to exist.   The only pure online sandbox I've seen is Second Life.   Oh and yes I heard the snickers about furries etc..   what I'm getting at is that someone buys a sim and can entirely build it.   If they have the tools and ability there is literally very little limit to the world they can create.   Which is of course exactly what a sandbox is...

 

As close as we get in standard MMO's is a little dungeon quest tool or perhaps a housing area.   Where you can have some user created content. 

 

For a "sandbox" there is no requirement other than the ability for the user to create content.   In other words combat... which includes PvP is not required in a sandbox... ever.   Obviously it can exist but it is not a requirement of a sandbox.

 

As to the OP and poll...   My point of view which has been shaped over the years (going back to seeing Habitat on Quantum Link back in 1986..) and up through current times is like this...   If they really want to make a PvP game then it has to be built from the ground up for PvP.   Every single aspect of the game (economy, crafting etc) has to be deisgned around it.   This is how you would make a really good PvP game.

 

The problem with including PvP and PvE in the same game... Well look at something like Dark Age of Camelot.   A class is considered OP'd in PvP but in PvE its sub-par.   They nerf the class due to PvP and totally destroy it for PvE.   This simply pisses off customers for having their character destroyed over an aspect of the game they never take part in.

 

^^  In that case the only thing I've seen is something like in The Secret World.   In PvP you have the uniform system which Funcom never really took advantage of in my opinion.   Simply because all of the PvP balance issues (aka nerfs/buffs) could have been adjusted there and it would have not affected you outside of the PvP areas.

 

For reference Ultima Online in the days of FFA PvP full loot on death (even mobs looting you) along with snooping/stealing from players.. was my favorite MMO time period of all.   So if I seem anti PvP in posts.. its not that at all.   I just have certain opinions after watching how things have gone over the years.

  ethion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 2877

 
OP  7/01/13 8:17:08 PM#47
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by ethion
There has been other threads with discussion of PvE vs PvP so I thought creating a Poll would be interesting.

Guess you missed out on the Rallos Zek server. That was PvP and not just dueling. Granted the PvP was limited to four levels below and four levels above.

Not at all.  I've been playing MMO since they day they were created.  So there isn't really much I've missed out on.  Well recently thats harder to say but anything that has any substantial popularity I've played.  I've even played the PvP oriented ones although in recent years I've become pretty frustrated with PvP for the reasons I've mentioned, that it tends to degrade PvE experience which I find more enjoyable overall.

ethion21 Xfire Miniprofile
  ethion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 2877

 
OP  7/01/13 8:27:16 PM#48
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Margulis
It's interesting that the VAST majority want a PvE focused experience, but it seems like PvP people are vastly more vocal on forums. 

It is also interesting how so many of them interpret muddling along cheerfully with your PvP flag off as being selfish while ganking is not.  Also positively interacting with people in a cooperative manner becomes "socially awkward" while sneaking up on someone, killing them and tea-bagging their corpse all the while yelling noob noob noob becomes the epitome of good social behavior.

Wish I could +1 a post :)

This is soo true.  There is a certain sick thrill you get from killing other players.  I remember once upon a time I was doing pve in shadowbane leveling and some guy stealthed up on me and killed me.  He did it several times and I was so pissed about it cause he just wouldn't stop.  I finally logged.

The next day I took advantage of a feature in shadowbane where when someone kills you it logs their name.  You can also find them with some ability I don't recall.  In any event I pulled in my guild for a little help and tracked this guy down and killed him numerous times.  After awhile it became an obsession to track him and kill him.  I out leveled him as his evil ways made it hard for him to progress.  After a few days I just suddenly realized what I was doing when he asked me to stop and said he was sorry.  

It really made me feel bad and it definitely brought out the worst in me.  For me that was a major turning point on my attitude toward PvP.  It is a negative experience.  Now warzones are less of an issue as I think of them more like a sport or even a team sport.  But even they can be upsetting at times with bad behavior.

Where buy contrast thinking back to EQ killing a boss is a challenge that involves team work and everything working together to achieve something.  Sometimes you got greed and drama but mostly it is a positive experience.

ethion21 Xfire Miniprofile
  TheJoda

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/10
Posts: 492

"Yes...... that's a Duck Staff of D00M!!!"

7/01/13 8:32:08 PM#49
Game will be like EQ loot rules, with some modern pvp rule set Im sure.  I don't see full loot, it makes no sense for a game like this.

....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2544

World > Quest Progression

7/01/13 8:37:10 PM#50
Although I never advocate for non-consensual PvP having it there where you CAN engage in it makes the world that much more dynamic IMO. I'd much rather have 30% OWPvP (racial borders between kindoms, contested areas, etc.) than to either choose a 100% OWPvP or have it relegated to instanced battlegrounds.

I still hope they use phasing to bring the different servers (or shard channels) together in various points in the world. That way everyone gets what they want.
  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1115

7/01/13 8:52:14 PM#51
Originally posted by Margulis
It's interesting that the VAST majority want a PvE focused experience, but it seems like PvP people are vastly more vocal on forums. 

PVE people spend more time enjoying the game and socializing, while PVP people are constantly in rage mode on the forums cause X Y Z aren't fair in game (I've been there myself sadly).

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1115

7/01/13 9:27:19 PM#52
Originally posted by Akerbeltz

I agree with you that a compromise must be made: My bet was a PVE oriented server where players would freely choose where/when to flag/unflag for PvP and another server with full FFA (with strong conequences ala UO, or an EVE similar system).

That's what it comes down to. There is no single ruleset that is going to please everyone. Simply offer multiple choices, but not too many to thin out the population. One is bound to cater to almost everyone.

I'm against a laundry list of "rules" and safeguards on a FFA server. I would much rather have a FFA... we make the rules, we suffer the consequences. No safety net. DAoC FFA servers were great, but died a sad death, because even in a PVP centric game, FFA doesn't work well or last long (majority of the time). Make a pop up when you log in "You will die in this world, a lot" "Do you wish to continue?" DAoC's site even said something like, if you have a problem, solve it with the PVP tools you have.

Sadly the risk-reward goes away very quickly when you either are on the winning or losing side. Better guilds usually band together to dominate and then fight amongst themselves, then quit once that has lost its fun. Bringing the majority of the not so good players along, because we all want to be like them...

Now a days, I prefer consensual PVP and like the random PVP encounters against others that are like minded. I'm done with the mindless gankging and steamrolling that comes along with FFA. Even given a strict FFA ruleset, if there is any chance for those that don't want to play nice to take advantage, they will.

No need for us to lure in PVErs, "It's okay, you'll be fine, look at all these rules" when in reality they are just fodder for those that can't win against the good PVPers and need an outlet for their anger.

Consensual could work very well in a Sandbox. PVE can do the back end work (crafting, city building, politics, resource management, etc) while PVPers can be the attack force and do the destroying and what not. Pretty much like real life. You have the people at home doing what they do and those that get sent off to kill some random other group of people. Seems to work well, at least if your on the winning side...

 

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1823

7/01/13 9:46:37 PM#53

In a sandbox pve and pvp are one and the same. Balancing won't be much of an issue. It seems to me most forget or perhaps never even knew why recent mmos even have seperate stats and mechanics for both. It is because pvp was seperated into it's own progression path and you couldn't have maxed out pve players switching over into pvp with better gear they earned through another progression system.

 

In a sandbox this doesn't happen and therefore you do not need to worry about many of these issues. There may very well be dual purpose powers that work differently in pvp and pve and there may very well be additional perks earned through either play style but in a craft driven system all gear is typically useful in all areas of the game.

 

If you have played a sandbox style mmo you likely would have noticed the seemlessness between pve and pvp. It is amazingly immersive not having to jump between mini-games such that exists in themepark mmos. I played Asheron's Call for years and never once was there an issue brought up between pvp and pve. Balancing powers and classes are their own thing and will always exist. The heated discussions between pve and pvp is a thempark blight only.

 

If SOE is smart they will go out of their way to keep the game within one play area (albeit huge) and lessen isntanced game play (eveidently this is confirmed). They can avoid all the pitfalls of a themepark game and even classes are not required to be balanced against each other as so many class types will be playing together at once it won't even matter (i.e. rock/paper/scissor vs mirrored or copied classes).

 

Pvp within the main game world is just an extension of pve and nothing else. Pve is redefined when it comes to sandbox games. The environment IS the world otherwise you are just playing a large FPS-style map. It wouldn't be a roleplaying game if the world wasn't alive. Living and dying within that world is the RP part of the game and it doesn't matter how you died or to who. Hard to wrap your head around it if playing nothing but themepark games.

You stay sassy!

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 650

7/01/13 9:59:02 PM#54
Originally posted by Tamanous

In a sandbox pve and pvp are one and the same.

Err no.  Not a t all.  PvP and PvE are both optional features of a sandbox.  PvE is closer to being "required" in a sandbox game but PvP is just plain optional.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7646

7/01/13 10:04:35 PM#55
FFA world with an instance/questing area.
  hayes303

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/04
Posts: 368

7/01/13 10:14:17 PM#56

I would like to see pvp servers and pve servers. Dueling only on the pve servers. 

Would be nice if the endless pvp balancing act didn't screw up all the classes until they are all a flavorless gruel, but thats probably asking too much.

  LacedOpium

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/12
Posts: 485

7/01/13 10:42:17 PM#57
Originally posted by ethion
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Margulis
It's interesting that the VAST majority want a PvE focused experience, but it seems like PvP people are vastly more vocal on forums. 

It is also interesting how so many of them interpret muddling along cheerfully with your PvP flag off as being selfish while ganking is not.  Also positively interacting with people in a cooperative manner becomes "socially awkward" while sneaking up on someone, killing them and tea-bagging their corpse all the while yelling noob noob noob becomes the epitome of good social behavior.

*snip* After a few days I just suddenly realized what I was doing when he asked me to stop and said he was sorry. *snip* 
 

 

Forgive me for chopping up your post but I just wanted to focus on this sentence as this has been my experience and the main reason why I always advocate with the PvE crowd in PvE vs PvP debates.  I am a PvP player at heart, and can very much lean toward hardcore PvP, but your above scenario is precisely the reason why I limit my PvP to PvP-centric FPS games. 

 

It has been my experience that in MMORPGs with PvE player bases it always seems like the PvP is always so skewed.  For the most part, it is always against another player who is either not prepared or simply not possessing of any real PvP skill.  As a result, I tend to feel guilty when i come up against, and easily destroy the player.  The worst part about it is that most of the time these players are not even interested in PvPing.  Often times they just half willingly fight back or simply not fight back at all.  In so many instances, I've even had players nicely ask me if I would please not engage them again  because they would like to finish quests or simply play in peace.  It's really not fulfilling at all, and I simply fail to see the enjoyment that some of these "so called" hardcore PvPers see in forcing their PvP unto players who are not interested in PvPing.  It just seems so callous to me.

 

Now on PvP centric games, where there is no question that a game is forced non consensual OWPvP, this should not be a problem.  But you would be surprised how much of this behavior is prevalent in those games as well.  Not all PvPers are equally skilled, and trust me I have had some very good challenges and on many occasion experienced defeat.  But it just pains me to no end when I come to the realization that even in those forced non consensual PvP centric games, ,more often than not, there will always be a portion of the population that are either very young children, or simply not skilled enough, on whom I am instilling great misery.  Increasingly, the downer that I feel in those instances far outweigh the thrill I feel when I win.

 

No game should ever force non consensual PvP on those who do not enjoy it.  It is absolutely bad game design.

Prettying-up wrong by dressing it up as opinion does not negate the fact that it is still wrong.

  JayFiveAlive

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/04/09
Posts: 488

7/01/13 11:13:58 PM#58

Why wouldn't EQN be like the others in terms of PVP? Consentual PvP except on PvP server. Rallos Zek was the best server back in Original EQ days. No need to try to alter that. ;)

  Hrimnir

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1206

7/01/13 11:29:41 PM#59
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Margulis
It's interesting that the VAST majority want a PvE focused experience, but it seems like PvP people are vastly more vocal on forums. 

PVE people spend more time enjoying the game and socializing, while PVP people are constantly in rage mode on the forums cause X Y Z aren't fair in game (I've been there myself sadly).

What he said.  So many people make the mistake of assuming that the loud squawking birds number more greatly than the ones who don't make themselves seen.  This is usually not the case.

People who enjoy pure FFA PVP are roughly 5-10% of the MMO population.  People who enjoy PVP in mmo but preferred structured PVP whether thats RVR or Battlegrounds/arenas, etc, are closer to 30-40%.  The majority of MMO players are PVE people, and there is a lot of overlap between people who enjoy PVP and PVE in an mmo.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

7/01/13 11:34:56 PM#60
Originally posted by bcbully
FFA world with an instance/questing area.

God, I hope not.  If it is the same over instance stuff we have been getting, I probably won't even try it, even though it is free. 

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