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General Discussion  » EQN: DG -"Holy Grails" and "Things Hated" In MMOs

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52 posts found
  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2587

6/29/13 7:22:28 PM#21

A game world without any instancing at all. I can't believe that's a holy grail now, when it used to be the norm...

 

Maybe a holy grail would be an interactive player influenced monster ecology like early UO used to have. Food chains, mobs looting the player and wearing their stuff...

 

 

Things hated? Well.. instances. Also, quest based leveling. Quest "systems" in general need to go. GW2 was the first MMO in a long time that had a quest system worth a damn, then they ruined it with hearts and the instanced storyline.

  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

6/29/13 7:43:45 PM#22

Holy Grail:

1.  My first Holy Grail is more of a concept that never actually managed to be completely realized in an MMO (that I am aware.)  But the only game in which I ever experienced it was in SWG.  Again... the foundation for this was there... the Devs just never went anywhere with it.

Anyway, there was this term we used to throw around: player interdependency.  Essentially, the classes or "Professions" in SWG were built in such a way that each one contributed in some way to the economic infrastructure of the game.  Each one provided a particular kind of service.  Even if the Profession was combat oriented, it still provided a service.  So basically, what it does is it provides your character with importance and roles even when you aren't in combat.  And even better - it wasn't necessarily crafting, unless you were a crafting profession to begin with.

More than a fun mechanic, it essentially gave players a reason to interact and be social with one another.  I'm not going to get into explaining it too deeply, but it's something I really, really miss.  And given how this new age of MMO's practically goes out of its way to make sure you never have to speak to anyone, ever... I think it is very much needed.  I think this, beyond all other factors, is what gave the game that Sandbox feeling people are looking for these days.

2.  Metroidvania questing:

Basically, I don't want an "!" over some NPC's head telling me he has a task for me.  I want there to be storylines that unfold off of a simple quest.  "Your quest is to save the princess."  Well... in order to do that, I have to go to 8 difference labyrinths and collect these Tri-Force parts so that I can unlock the barrier to the final evil tower where the Princess is being held.  Any hints I get to how to find these labyrinths are given to me organically in the game.  Whatever levels I gain or mobs I kill along the way are purely circumstantial.  I might even have to travel through areas that are way too strong for me - the point is to just get through them.

I can't really explain it well, but essentially, I just want some oldschool Metroidvania problem solving instead of this Themepark BS.

 

Things Hated:

I'm mostly just tired of the general philosophy of MMO's.  Designers are thinking way too digitally and simple and they aren't being very analog with their design.  This gets into what my Holy Grails are all about.

  xxxxxx1

Novice Member

Joined: 7/26/06
Posts: 95

6/30/13 1:55:29 PM#23

Holy Grails -

Massive world called "Norrath" in a single server - Exploration is once again FUN!

Meaningful, intelligent combat gameplay that is absolutely fun. (aka world environment could be deciding factor...)

Sandbox-style quest system that requires your thinking to embark an adventure that may be successful or a complete failure.

Massive underground dungeons where you can easily get lost.

Mounts could be killed and they are not stored in your pockets.

Very detailed crafting system that is absolutely relevant and fun.

Casting spells that require reagents no matter what. (providing that they are very beneficial)

Player characters need to learn skills through interactivity and get better over time.

Things Hated -

Instances

Map Radar (this is fantasy world, not sci-fi world.)

Instant Travels except very rare spell - Teleportation that requires hard to find reagents

Auction Houses

Level Up!

Quests that ask you to kill 10 rats or pick up 10 poops

Group, Dungeon, Raid LFG Finders - these systems destroy the communities in the game world.

 

There I said it.

 

 

  thedood123

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/12
Posts: 149

6/30/13 2:08:39 PM#24
How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that
  skeaser

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 3694

Don't die mad, just die.

6/30/13 2:13:05 PM#25
Originally posted by thedood123
How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that

Simple, you get rid of static dungeon spawns and static mob loot. Dungeons become about exploration, not farming.


A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

  thedood123

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/12
Posts: 149

6/30/13 2:16:31 PM#26
Originally posted by skeaser
Originally posted by thedood123
How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that

Simple, you get rid of static dungeon spawns and static mob loot. Dungeons become about exploration, not farming.

I am all for that somewhat, I do however like farming a lot... like killing the same thing over and over for a specific item. I also wish that instead of basing most gear off of boss drops that they make crafted just as good

  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1823

"I shall take your position into consideration"

6/30/13 2:21:23 PM#27
Originally posted by baphamet

in order for it to truly be "the largest sandbox style game ever made", it almost has to be a single server.

my holy grail is simply being able to continue leveling up my single character for years like you could in EQ via the AA system and a slow leveling curve.

most hated would have to be lame character models like EQ2 had or even worse, the Asian anime style mmo character models.

can't stand em.

This holds for me as well.

Interesting longterm vertical character progression is probably the most important aspect of an MMORPG, for me. I miss slow leveling curves.

The design where you quickly level your character to max level where the vertical progression stops and you are confronted with "endgame" is what I hate in the MMORPG. I did not hate it in the past, but now when more and more games are adapting this model, I became really fed up with that.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Mendel

Elite Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 638

6/30/13 4:03:37 PM#28

Holy Grail:

  • A game system not based on Hit Points.  This would include combat, magic and healing effects.   Ideally, this aspect alone would help make the game more resistant against Mudflation.
  • A game world were magic was rare.  There would be fewer than one magic user per 1000 characters, including PCs, NPCs and others.   Magic should be difficult to learn, to use and would not overbalance the game.
  • No in-combat healing, barring the rare magic effect or religious miracle.   It should take a considerable amount of in-game time to recover from a serious wound, and activity and moving around would be detrimental to healing.  The healing alone should make combat an undesirable thing.
  • A variety of alternatives to the combat treadmill -- politics, religion, social activities, etc.
  • Crafting should be very restricted.   Each political entity should regulate the number of crafters in the area, and who can sell their crafts and what prices can be charged.   No character can work in multiple crafts (and there should be difficult restrictions on alts) to encourage player-to-player interaction.
  • In-game mechanisms to help promote role-playing -- strong emote mechanisms, voting mechanisms, ability to evaluate items, prices or performances (enabling judged events).
Things Hated:
  • Characters being independent, not needing to rely on others, either in combat or crafting.
  • Overly abundant healing (potions in particular),
  • Easy and cheap travel.
  • 'Safe' areas, where the content no longer poses a danger to the adventurer.

 

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  Entinerint

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 717

6/30/13 6:47:49 PM#29

HOLY GRAILS

1)  Real-time combat

2)  Viable first-person with hands/animations

3)  Classless and levelless progression with just capped point-based attributes and skills

4)  FFA PvP with full-loot offset by a heavy-penalty crime and punishment system (never been done right)

5)  Player driven economy with player vendors

6)  SWG/Vanguard style housing but with enough provisions so the world doesn't be come a parking lot

7)  Player guild wars with non-instanced sieging and capture mechanics

8)  Completely 100% seamless world including dungeons

9)  Naval combat a la Darkfall

10)  A good, engaging, multi-dimensional story that allows for player choice and freedom

11)  Players shaping or breaking the world (a more advanced version of Wurm)

12)  Truly unique monsters and items, as in there is 1 of this extremely hard-to-kill world boss and once it's dead it is dead forever, or there is only 1 of this named artifact sword and whoever has it has a great weapon but had better watch out for others trying to take it from them

13)  Plenty of non-combat activities, including being a bard/dancer like SWG

14)  Unit Collision Detection with contingencies to prevent griefing (a la Warhammer/Mortal)

15)  Need to eat/drink regularly

16)  Major focus put on RP fluff

 

RED FLAGS

1)  Instances

2)  Loading screens (beyond the one where you first log in)

3)  Auction houses

4)  Dungeon finders

5)  Instanced PvP

6)  Instanced Dungeons

7)  Static mobs

8)  Boring tab-target or hybrid combat

9)  Lack of Unit Collision

10)  Race-locked factions with no way to defect

11)  Levelled zones/areas

12)  Retarded immersion-breaking emotes like the airguitar in Darkfall or modern dances in WoW.

13)  Lack of RP-focused elements

14)  Cookie-cutter WoW-cloned lack-of-vision re-hashed design

  Telil

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/09
Posts: 271

6/30/13 7:05:24 PM#30

Holy Grail = World to adventure in and explore with no hand holding ( Everquest )

Things hated = Quest hubs/dungeon finder.

 

World to adventure in = Everquests draw was "your in our world now" and it was true, you felt like you were living in the world of Norrath. As a level one you could go and see a Dragon if you were smart. At level fifty you could go to Crushbone and slaughter Orcs. You didnt have to grind, you could just adventure. You came across other groups in dungeons and made friends. You sat in a camp and chat for hours with new friends. You went on epic journeys across dangerous lands, just to because you wanted to reach that far away dungeon.

Quest hubs/Dungeon finder = With quest hubs you are automaticall taken to an appropriate leveled area ( that is usually full of mobs that you could solo five levels ago ) There is no exploration and due to this, it does not feel like a living world. Dungeon finders again destroy the immersive feeling that Everquest created. There is no need to even leave the main city as you just join and explore the internet until you are grouped. I remember grabbing my friends in Kelethin and telling them about a newly discovered dungeon in Kunark. I took great deal in leading them acorss dangerous lands and telling them to trust me and step into the water.....when we reached Dalnirs crypt and spent the next week there it all seemed worthwhile.

 

The game was a challenge like we are unlikely to ever see again. Remember walking into a dungeon and being able to fight the mobs at the entrance but having to work your way up to be able to battle the tougher mobs....thats before you even thought of trying the names. When you managed to clear your way from start to the end and kill each named in a dungeon it felt a real achievment.

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2587

6/30/13 7:21:45 PM#31
Originally posted by thedood123
How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that

Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.

Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.

 

 

It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.

  SavageHorizon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1568

6/30/13 7:28:24 PM#32
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by thedood123
How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that

Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.

Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.

 

 

It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.

I wouldn't  just say the golden age, Vanguard has no instances and vast dungeons spanning many levels. Above ground and underground, if anyone needs an example then download Vanguard.

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  Masterfuzzfuzz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/13
Posts: 176

6/30/13 7:33:29 PM#33

Holy Grail

Tera-style combat. It's beautiful, interactive, fun, and skill based to a point.

Hated

Literally everything about WoW. I liked not having a lot of skills.

i HATE quest chains, or even quest trackers. I want 90% of my xp to come from mobs not quests.

Easy Set items. I loved inspecting someone and seeing them have random gear from all over the place. Questing for a set, sure. But I hated defiant gear. There was no reason to farm anything anymore

 

  Fangrim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/12
Posts: 476

6/30/13 7:42:13 PM#34
Originally posted by azzamasin

What are your "Holy Grails"?

  • Exploration Centric Gameplay
  • Dungeon Finder/LFG Tool if game features instanced Progression Dungeons
  • Fast Paced Combat, preferable Action Combat but definitely no 4-6 rows of hot bars.
 
 
 
What are your "things hated"?
 
  • Slow combat, turn based or tab target with zero mobility (i.e. like EQ2 or Vanguard- horrible combat)
  • 4 to 6 rows of abilities and skills
  • linear quest hubs
 

I can just swap yours around to what i like apart from linear questing.can't stand console type combat with 1 hotbar faceroll bullshit combat for 5 year olds.

  Kuanshu

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

6/30/13 9:11:35 PM#35

Pwnage

Immersive Indepth Balanced PvP

Dynamic uncanny formidable artificial intelligence in PvE

Immersive Environmental Settings players can fully interact with, to escape and lose themselves in

Collateral Damage

Mounts of all kinds, shapes, sizes for single, multiple, crowd travel and transport

Skills & Dynamic Player Movement/Actions

Real time bartering, selling, buying, trading, disenchanting

Anything that enhances the COMMUNITY!

Real Time Combat

Sandboxes

Suckage

Crowd control

Holy Trinity

Overpowered Gear & Player Templates

Invulnerablity of any type

Teleportation or Fast Travel

Levels & Hit Points

Auction Houses

Turn Based Combat

Queues & Timesinks

Instancing

 

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2587

6/30/13 9:41:07 PM#36
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by thedood123
How exactly is no instances supposed to work? "I am going to go do this dungeon real quick" ... "Oh wait there are 100 other people there" what fun is that

Dungeons in Golden Age MMORPGs do not function the same way they do in WoW clones.

Dungeons are massive underground zones with people playing together cooperatively, existing in the same space. The whole point of going into a dungeon is to socialize with other players, and to team up to take on bigger monsters deeper down. You don't "do" a dungeon, because they aren't linear scripted tiny instances. You choose your own objective when you go in. There are several bosses you can fight your way towards, and they all have reactive AI rather than scripting.

 

 

It makes me really fucking depressed to think that people can't imagine a world without instances, because there has only been ONE type of MMO for so long.

I wouldn't  just say the golden age, Vanguard has no instances and vast dungeons spanning many levels. Above ground and underground, if anyone needs an example then download Vanguard.

Vanguard is an exception. A glorious exception.

  deveilblad

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/13
Posts: 152

6/30/13 9:53:12 PM#37
Originally posted by Mendel

Holy Grail:

  • A game system not based on Hit Points.  This would include combat, magic and healing effects.   Ideally, this aspect alone would help make the game more resistant against Mudflation.
  • A game world were magic was rare.  There would be fewer than one magic user per 1000 characters, including PCs, NPCs and others.   Magic should be difficult to learn, to use and would not overbalance the game.
  • No in-combat healing, barring the rare magic effect or religious miracle.   It should take a considerable amount of in-game time to recover from a serious wound, and activity and moving around would be detrimental to healing.  The healing alone should make combat an undesirable thing.
  • A variety of alternatives to the combat treadmill -- politics, religion, social activities, etc.
  • Crafting should be very restricted.   Each political entity should regulate the number of crafters in the area, and who can sell their crafts and what prices can be charged.   No character can work in multiple crafts (and there should be difficult restrictions on alts) to encourage player-to-player interaction.
  • In-game mechanisms to help promote role-playing -- strong emote mechanisms, voting mechanisms, ability to evaluate items, prices or performances (enabling judged events).
Things Hated:
  • Characters being independent, not needing to rely on others, either in combat or crafting.
  • Overly abundant healing (potions in particular),
  • Easy and cheap travel.
  • 'Safe' areas, where the content no longer poses a danger to the adventurer.

 

Looks like you're waiting for World of Darkness

  deveilblad

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/13
Posts: 152

6/30/13 9:55:18 PM#38
I saw more than a few people saying their hate a game with HIT POINTS... How exactly does that work in you head lol? When do you die ? How do you kill anything ? One hits ? I don't get it...
  stayBlind

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 511

6/30/13 9:58:23 PM#39

Like to see: Automated combat system.

Don't like to see: Automated trade system.

Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  thedood123

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/12
Posts: 149

7/01/13 7:20:11 AM#40
If there is no auction house then how are people on PS4 (should it be on that) supposed to trade efficiently? The whole point of being on a console is so that you don't have to plug up a keyboard or mouse. Don't see that happening.
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