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News & Features Discussion  » [Dev Journal] General: Have MMOs Become Too Easy?

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391 posts found
  cyrician

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/14/10
Posts: 152

6/28/13 7:53:52 PM#141

Yes way to easy I mean god forbid people have to use their brain to play a mmo and the worse thing is when mmo devs actually bring a challenge to their games. 8times out of 10  they are are scorned for doing so . I still remember when tsw came out and people had to actually use their brains to work out the puzzles and didn't have little arrows pointing to quest destinations.

 

cyrician Xfire Miniprofile
  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3541

6/28/13 8:01:15 PM#142
You dont have to look any further than quests to know that MMOs are much easier today than they were in the past (well since WoW anyway).......I think most children 5 and above could solve the quests in most mMOs today......They simply dumbed the games down so much that there really isn't much of a challenge not does it take much intelligence to play them anymore.
  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

6/28/13 8:23:37 PM#143
Originally posted by caetftl

:Looks at OP and thread:

:Sees typical "ours does it right":

:Sees blast against wow:

:Sees third person shooter:

:OP loses all credibility:

Your entire game is based on the dumbing down of gaming in general, not just the MMO genre.  Third person shooters are all the rave because of the dumbing down of a genre (fps)

I appreciate the edgy little bite you are trying to give your game by being so outspoken against the big bad giant mmo.  But I think one thing the hardcore mmo community, which has been let down by tons of devs making the same claims you now make, has learned is that we will let the product speak for itself.  Less gimmick advertising, more real content plz. 

Did you find out who wrote this feature yet and what they worked on previously?  Or still figuring that out?

El Psy Congroo

  TheJoda

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/10
Posts: 492

"Yes...... that's a Duck Staff of D00M!!!"

6/28/13 8:39:32 PM#144
One word, yes!

....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

  Novusod

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 840

6/28/13 8:43:39 PM#145

Have MMORPGS become too Easy? Yes, YES, and absolutely YES. Where was this article ten yes ago when the dumbing down tend first started. Reading this article now is like shutting the barn door after the horses ran away.

 

I would like to see a game that is so hard you can't even get to the level cap without decent social skills. Game developers often only think in terms graphics, numbers, experience gain, and damage ratios. That is fine when you are making a single player game but in a MMO there is a social puzzle as well. The problem starts with player characters being so powerful they can solo everything to the point there was no need to interact with other people. Design niche classes again so players can't do much on their own and have to party together to get things done. After a decade of instant gratification gamers actually need to be socialized again. We don't need gear checks or even skill checks. Games need socialization checks. Putting up a socialization check is akin to putting a huge sign up that reads: No TROLLS beyond this point.

 

Take the Everquest Epic for example. No anti-social TROLL ever got their Epic because no one would help a ninja-looter or someone who mouthed in public chat. Committing to do the EPIC quests required a large time investment and lot of trust between different people working together to help ONE person get an update. Reputations mattered as much or even more than gear did. That is what is missing from modern "easy" MMOs reputation and social standing doesn't matter anymore. There has to be trust that the friend would reciprocate the action and help you when your turn came. WoW on the other hand is populated by the worst of the worst of the XBOX live crowd. Foul mouthed little 14 year olds or adults acting like 14 year olds with no manors get decked out in full purple gear because the game is so easy and rewards their anti-social behavior.

 

Please stop catering to the instant gratification crowd and make socialization games again.

  johnjec

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 16

6/28/13 9:00:54 PM#146
Very well written article and clearly gets to the heart of the matter. Here's the thing though. Most are not going to understand what you are writing about because they never played EQ. They never experienced real death. They never lied dead in the middle of a mob infested region hoping and praying that someone would rez them and get them the hell  out of there. I have never felt the sense of accomplishment that I felt in those early games. Only one question remains now. When we say that we want a real experience today, do we really mean it? Will we be able to deal with losing our life or maybe even a level? We have fostered such an environment of spoon fed gaming that I don't know if we can ever go back to reality. What a shame.
  johnjec

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 16

6/28/13 9:04:06 PM#147
Originally posted by Novusod

Have MMORPGS become too Easy? Yes, YES, and absolutely YES. Where was this article ten yes ago when the dumbing down tend first started. Reading this article now is like shutting the barn door after the horses ran away.

 

I would like to see a game that is so hard you can't even get to the level cap without decent social skills. Game developers often only think in terms graphics, numbers, experience gain, and damage ratios. That is fine when you are making a single player game but in a MMO there is a social puzzle as well. The problem starts with player characters being so powerful they can solo everything to the point there was no need to interact with other people. Design niche classes again so players can't do much on their own and have to party together to get things done. After a decade of instant gratification gamers actually need to be socialized again. We don't need gear checks or even skill checks. Games need socialization checks. Putting up a socialization check is akin to putting a huge sign up that reads: No TROLLS beyond this point.

 

Take the Everquest Epic for example. No anti-social TROLL ever got their Epic because no one would help a ninja-looter or someone who mouthed in public chat. Committing to do the EPIC quests required a large time investment and lot of trust between different people working together to help ONE person get an update. Reputations mattered as much or even more than gear did. That is what is missing from modern "easy" MMOs reputation and social standing doesn't matter anymore. There has to be trust that the friend would reciprocate the action and help you when your turn came. WoW on the other hand is populated by the worst of the worst of the XBOX live crowd. Foul mouthed little 14 year olds or adults acting like 14 year olds with no manors get decked out in full purple gear because the game is so easy and rewards their anti-social behavior.

 

Please stop catering to the instant gratification crowd and make socialization games again.

Very well put sir.

 

  zellmer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/09
Posts: 406

6/28/13 9:13:27 PM#148

The original/basic idea of the story, yeah, MMO's have become absurd and almost "Console like' in how fast the content is blown through with no challenge..

MMO's that try to rely on being a community or run by them usually fail because they're so casual.. 

"Work together and meet people.......for the 3-10 minutes you group with them" 

or

"Party with and meet new players....for an hour before you all gain 3-10 levels and never see each other again"

 

Even the few games that changed todays casual formula eventually adopted it in expansions and the like sadly..

Same for the EQ servers that where going to keep the original "hardcore" EQ, and only add in further expansions as the current patches big boss was defeated on the server.  Only took a few months before the expansions where back to the WoW like changes...

 

  johnjec

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 16

6/28/13 9:15:49 PM#149
I thought of one more example that I wanted to bring up. You know we blame WoW and even EQ2 for the dumbing down of the original gaming experience but it has gone well beyond even those days. Let me quickly illustrate. When i started playing WoW and EQ2 I still had to have a second screen available to look up how to finish particular quests. Some were actually challenging. Granted they were not EQ but they were still challenging. Fast forward to today. I started playing Neverwinter Online about 1 week ago. I hit 60 last night and I wasn't trying to hurry. How many times did I have to ask someone for help or look up a strategy to get past a certain point? A big donut hole! The quests have no body to them. Hack and slash, pop a potion, hack and slash, etc. It is no wonder why people are drawn to the professions because it's the only thing that actually takes time to do and will provide the gamer some sense of accomplishment. It's so frickin sad! Please, will someone in the industry listen and grow a set and build us something that doesn't insult our intelligence?
 
  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 965

6/28/13 9:32:02 PM#150

The real problem I see is one of few alternatives.  Given the cost of development, companies have to go for a large group of players.  With obvious design effect.   The folks who want a particularly different style or difficulty level have far less choice of things to patronize.    Of course, if you don't subsidise anything, nothing is what you'll get. 

 

If you are going to go for a game style that appeals to a smaller player base, there are going to have to be corners cut still further to make it doable on a smaller budget.  I see people here, all the time, complaining about game animation or art style, big swords or bad magicks.....  You are going to have to put up with some deficiencies if you want to be able to play a game with a less broad appeal. 

 

 

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  sanshi44

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1022

6/28/13 9:44:00 PM#151
Originally posted by me0n

Yes and no. EQ was (is) very special, it's the only mmo that has literally had me on the edge of my seat. It also had a bucket load of sitting around waiting though. Serious hours upon hours of waiting, and grind groups where you barely think.

EQ did a lot of stuff right though. As you mentioned in the article, dying in the noob zones was something that happened lots and that was great. It also had mobs that would follow you across a zone, and the way the zones were laid out this invariably meant you weren't invis and would aggro other mobs, and this added to the excitement. On that, there were "trains to zone" where some poor sucker would have dragged half the zone to a zone exit, escape, leaving a bucket load of angry mobs wandering back to their starting points, usually eating players they found on the way.

 

I like what WoW has,  in the structured missions that lead you through, I'd just like to see the gameplay changed to make it more exciting, make everything less safe. I liked going to one of the non combat zones in EQ to chill, but in any zone with mobs, you were always at risk.

When is WoW 2 coming btw? It must be due.

 

Titan was there next MMOP and it was delayed till 2016 at the earliest, EQN is the next thing to look forward to imo.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

6/28/13 9:46:01 PM#152

OP: I'm certain you mean well. But the question you're asking as akin to asking any man if his wee-wee is bigger than average. 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Electro057

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/09
Posts: 533

6/28/13 9:46:35 PM#153
No, they are simply less of a grindy time sink these days. I mean, they are easier in that you can quest and solo to max level. But the mechanics have evolved in some instances with complex class mechanics and the like....A lot of the time sink in grinding and camping for 10 hours is gone though. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

--Custom Rig: Maker's Forge---
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  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6482

6/28/13 9:49:08 PM#154

Do you know why though? the "I don't have the time crowd." The same crowd that does not like Wpvp, long dungeons, tough raids, complex crafting, and progression. 

 

They loooove jumping puzzles though.

  Electro057

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/09
Posts: 533

6/28/13 9:50:47 PM#155
Originally posted by bcbully

Do you know why though? the "I don't have the time crowd." The same crowd that does not like Wpvp, long dungeons, tough raids, complex crafting, and progressions. 

 

They loooove jumping puzzles though.

Man jumping puzzles are awesome! I love Guild Wars 2! So much to explore!

--Custom Rig: Maker's Forge---
3.0 Ghz AMD Phenom II X6 1055T Processor (Six Cores, 3.0 Ghz Each)
8 Gigs DDR3
Radeon HD 6990 4 gigs of dedicated ram.
Windows 7 Ultimate

  Heafstagg

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/02/06
Posts: 146

6/28/13 9:51:33 PM#156
Yeah I agree with the article big time, but the plug for firefall is kind of tacky. It would have been better to leave that out and then I'm positive someone on the forums would know who it was or Bill could have dropped it in the forum comment section casually and it would have had a much greater effect. Kinda turned me off the whole article and the game.

  Opapanax

Novice Member

Joined: 10/29/11
Posts: 983

Most Morbid One

6/28/13 9:53:03 PM#157
Originally posted by Icewhite

OP: I'm certain you mean well. But the question you're asking as akin to asking any man if his wee-wee is bigger than average. 

Well now that you mentioned it....(premade-male response on forum of annonymity)..

The more you know!

PM before you report at least or you could just block.

  tank017

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/06
Posts: 2206

6/28/13 10:09:08 PM#158

MMO's have indeed become way too easy.WoW opened the flood gates to easiness,casualness,and accessibility. I respect Kern for being able to look back and realize this.

 

Im no fan of easy mode and the easy mode state that MMO's are in today.I come from a time where my MMO infancy was unforgiving,challenging,and dangerous.A time where gaining levels werent as easy as logging on.That is the era in which I crave..

 

not MMO's where a 5 year old can jump on and play and know what he/she is doing.

  WW4BW

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 468

6/28/13 10:12:57 PM#159
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Xarko
Not necessarily easy, but they became SIMPLE.

I dont see the difference

Noncomplex vs hard. Complex might be more related to knowledge while hard means it takes skill to play properly etc... (well thats how I read it anyway).

lol still dont see the difference. Easy and Simple are one in the same when talking about game play relating to MMOs. For me it is anyway. Not going to get all philosophical on these 2 words. No reason for it. Easy and Simple are the 2 words i would use if i were asked to rate the level of difficulty in understanding this topic.

 

"Have MMOs Become too Easy?"

 

A Easy, Simple answer to that is YES!

 Simple and hard are not necessarily the same thing. 

Lets say you really only need to hit one button, maybe two.. but you have to do it quite a few times and at have the timing right... Its fairly simple just hit the button when prompted.. But its hard to do for a long period of time. And by that measuring stick.. Games have actually become harder. I just get bored so fast I cant focus on the simple gameplay.. Luckily most mobs are so easy they cant kill you and will eventually die to a damage shield.. and if not.. well maybe you kill them when you wake up from your nap.. if you dont uninstall and go look for better games.

  Dillig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/24/04
Posts: 65

6/28/13 10:17:27 PM#160

I think too easy is the wrong way to put it.

 

MMO's have become a game on rails. They take you by the hand and lead you from quest to quest zone to zone. They are mindless games these days.

 

 That makes them extremely boring. I would rather see exploration and killing mobs give more xp and have questing be a secondary thing. Except for epic quests.

 Epic quest meaning it might take a raid group to help you complete 1 part of your epic quest and you wont get it all done till your max level. EQ epic quests are exactly what I am talking about. You felt like you actually accomplished something when you was done.

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