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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Please, tell me why you hate PVP so much. I just don't understand.

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542 posts found
  WahrHeit

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/06
Posts: 50

6/28/13 8:57:33 AM#401

I love pvp, duels,arenas,bgs, open world...

I dislike a bit mass pvp...i enjoy much more bg than wvwvw in gw2 for example.

Years ago i was really hardcore into pvp, i could waste my time doing pvp all the day lol.

but there is always fags who ruin pvp...its a shame to see videos of "pvp players" hunting lowbies or fighting in way more

advantage.

if you love pvp you will try to search the best players on the server and get the best experience winning or losing.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2766

There... are... four... lights!

6/28/13 9:03:07 AM#402
Originally posted by Kuro1n

You love PVP when it's on your terms you said, I am assuming that is battlegrounds or such, either way. On your terms means not open world PVP. Yes I know you wrote about it, I read your post. If I didn't read your post I wouldn't have addressed almost every part of it. I just wrote that way because you said it was niche but that is exactly what happens in EVE online. Newbies gets killed all the time, no one cares if you are a newbie or not in EVE. A kill is a kill.

Darkfall and MO are both without and downsides at all for PKing, just upsides. A truly bad system I agree. The best systems I've seen is in Tibia, L2 and EVE, different systems but all of them worked great. Having open world PVP on the gankers terms can work. It just needs to be well designed.

On your terms can still be open world, don't limit what's possible to the limits of your own imagination. A game doesn't need to be a total gank fest to have open world PvP.

Hell, the "real world" we live in is open PvP, yet you don't see people killing each other mindlessly all the time even if it happens.

Seriously... have you even played Lineage 2? You have vastly most people playing it PVE than you have PKs.

Yes, I lead a clan of 450 players and actually kept playing the game for 9 years straight. I am quite at home with the game. If you play at a competitive level you PK to get people off spots quite often.

How can you be so ignorant about that game then? For me, L2 is a bad game, but definitely not because of the open PvP which was quite controlled when I played (controlled as in "not annoying"). L2 was and is a bad game because of the awful "Asian" grind based design is has.

Originally posted by WahrHeit

I love pvp, duels,arenas,bgs, open world...

I dislike a bit mass pvp...i enjoy much more bg than wvwvw in gw2 for example.

Years ago i was really hardcore into pvp, i could waste my time doing pvp all the day lol.

but there is always fags who ruin pvp...its a shame to see videos of "pvp players" hunting lowbies or fighting in way more

advantage.

if you love pvp you will try to search the best players on the server and get the best experience winning or losing.

Spoken like someone who truly likes PvP for the competition. I couldn't agree more, specially the last sentence. A true PvPer loving PvP doesn't waste his time ganking lowbies, he fights against those better than him for the challenge and to improve and learn. That's the difference between the 13 years old brat (or the adult who never grown past that age) in his basement grinning like a moron each time he one hits someone 20 levels lower than him, and the true PvP "warrior".

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Kuro1n

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 775

6/28/13 9:12:45 AM#403
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Kuro1n

You love PVP when it's on your terms you said, I am assuming that is battlegrounds or such, either way. On your terms means not open world PVP. Yes I know you wrote about it, I read your post. If I didn't read your post I wouldn't have addressed almost every part of it. I just wrote that way because you said it was niche but that is exactly what happens in EVE online. Newbies gets killed all the time, no one cares if you are a newbie or not in EVE. A kill is a kill.

Darkfall and MO are both without and downsides at all for PKing, just upsides. A truly bad system I agree. The best systems I've seen is in Tibia, L2 and EVE, different systems but all of them worked great. Having open world PVP on the gankers terms can work. It just needs to be well designed.

On your terms can still be open world, don't limit what's possible to the limits of your own imagination. A game doesn't need to be a total gank fest to have open world PvP.

Hell, the "real world" we live in is open PvP, yet you don't see people killing each other mindlessly all the time even if it happens.

Seriously... have you even played Lineage 2? You have vastly most people playing it PVE than you have PKs.

Yes, I lead a clan of 450 players and actually kept playing the game for 9 years straight. I am quite at home with the game. If you play at a competitive level you PK to get people off spots quite often.

How can you be so ignorant about that game then? For me, L2 is a bad game, but definitely not because of the open PvP which was quite controlled when I played (controlled as in "not annoying"). L2 was and is a bad game because of the awful "Asian" grind based design is has.

Originally posted by WahrHeit

I love pvp, duels,arenas,bgs, open world...

I dislike a bit mass pvp...i enjoy much more bg than wvwvw in gw2 for example.

Years ago i was really hardcore into pvp, i could waste my time doing pvp all the day lol.

but there is always fags who ruin pvp...its a shame to see videos of "pvp players" hunting lowbies or fighting in way more

advantage.

if you love pvp you will try to search the best players on the server and get the best experience winning or losing.

Spoke like someone who truly likes PvP for the competition. I couldn't agree more, specially the last sentence. A true PvPer loving PvP doesn't waste his time ganking lowbies, he fights against those better than him for the challenge and to improve and learn.

Well Some downsides for PKing is what I believe is healthy for the game and I already said so, not sure what you are getting at. IRL has quite huge punishments for killing others, where there are no punishments there are plenty of murders, feel free to visit somalia or something.

For you L2 is bad yet you talk to me and think I haven't played it, L2 is probably the game I enjoyed most. The grind is part of what makes it good. Other games are just too easy, if it takes 2 months to get maxlevel it's too easy. I want to be able to work on my character for years, what's the point of playing the game if you are just going to sit on your ass in town after you grinded your way up? Leveling/farming and PVPing for spots or epics is what L2 was always about. Also L2 is a good game, there are lots and lots of players who enjoy the game even though it is so old and that is because it has something very few other games have. I don't think you have any rights to bash L2 anymore, it is a truly good PVP game where you needed some real teamplay to perform good and depended on every memeber of your party in PVP.

Also I agree with you and that other guy, finding the biggest guy and beating him is what it is all about. If you are beating newbies you don't get better. At some point you will be the best though and then what? As long as someone is on equal terms as you or close by the fight is good imo. It is a game afterall and the guy under you sees you as the biggest guy around that he wants to beat.

  Channce

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/04
Posts: 547

6/28/13 9:20:39 AM#404

I don't hate RvR, WvW, something that takes a team and strategy.  I hate the dueling, I hate the l33t-ness of so called "soloers" (gangers)( oh, and stealthers always think they are better than they really are.)

I hate people taking a game like say, DAoC and whining that they got outnumbered (TAKE YOUR CHANCES IF YOUR GONNA SOLO, don't whine about it)

I don't mind GW2 PvP, because you can never go there if you want.

When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7244

 
OP  6/28/13 9:29:04 AM#405
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I LOVE good PvP when it's on my terms, when I can participate when I decide to.

I dislike badly designed full open PvP now that I'm older with less time to play because I dislike some teenager without a life playing 12+ hours a day being able to camp my lower level character and make me waste time I could spend playing. But that kind of PvP has always been a small niche anyway, UO had to patch in Trammel in a hurry to save the game.

A good designed game with PvP must cater to all play styles, including people who do not want to participate in PvP, or who only want to participate when they feel like it. That's why poorly designed game like Darkfail or Mortal Online will remain tiny niche crap (not to mention the poor production quality of those games of course).

There's a reason why UO and EVE are the two only successful sandbox games with PvP... because both aren't gank fests, they both give players choices. UO with a 100% PvE world, and EVE with different levels of security. The games work because all play styles can enjoy them, and not only the tiny minority of gankers.

Wushu, a mind boggling civil FFA world with no safezones. 20 million players world wide, and it's less than 2 years old. There is a reason for this.

 

A guildie, Shulan, has to be one of my favorite mmorpg players. She does not like pvp for all the reasons listed. In Wushu, she's the #1 farmer, the #1 woodcutter, and top musician. No one messes with her while she's doing these things, because there is no reward for doing so. Only potential punishment. 

 

During war she is more important than any one player with a sword. She organizes the musicians. Without her we would not be nearly as strong.

 

Point being even in a FFA world, that makes you check a box that says "Wushu is a pvp world are you ready" before you log in, their can be civility. 

 

I have high hopes for the future of the genre. It's evolving.

 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  kasta

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/03
Posts: 517

Never try to teach a pig to sing,it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

6/28/13 9:30:58 AM#406
I just don't enjoy PVP.  I don't care if you can kill me, I don't care if I can kill you.  I don't enjoy and thus don't play FPS games, they bore me to tears no matter who is winning.   If that's all I have to do in a game I'll go read a book instead. 
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2766

There... are... four... lights!

6/28/13 9:33:58 AM#407
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I LOVE good PvP when it's on my terms, when I can participate when I decide to.

I dislike badly designed full open PvP now that I'm older with less time to play because I dislike some teenager without a life playing 12+ hours a day being able to camp my lower level character and make me waste time I could spend playing. But that kind of PvP has always been a small niche anyway, UO had to patch in Trammel in a hurry to save the game.

A good designed game with PvP must cater to all play styles, including people who do not want to participate in PvP, or who only want to participate when they feel like it. That's why poorly designed game like Darkfail or Mortal Online will remain tiny niche crap (not to mention the poor production quality of those games of course).

There's a reason why UO and EVE are the two only successful sandbox games with PvP... because both aren't gank fests, they both give players choices. UO with a 100% PvE world, and EVE with different levels of security. The games work because all play styles can enjoy them, and not only the tiny minority of gankers.

Wushu, a mind boggling civil FFA world with no safezones. 20 million players world wide, and it's less than 2 years old. There is a reason for this.

 

A guildie, Shulan, has to be one of my favorite mmorpg players. She does not like pvp for all the reasons listed. In Wushu, she's the #1 farmer, the #1 woodcutter, and top musician. No one messes with her while she's doing these things, because there is no reward for doing so. Only potential punishment. 

 

During war she is more important than any one player with a sword. She organizes the musicians. Without her we would not be nearly as strong.

 

Point being even in a FFA world, that makes you check a box that says "Wushu is a pvp world are you ready" before you log in, their can be civility. 

 

I have high hopes for the future of the genre. It's evolving.

 

I agree with most of what you've said, except that I'm still amazed when I see people who really believe the propaganda saying that age of wushu has 20 million players. But whatever, the example of your guild friend is a very good one, and that's what I was meaning in my post when I was talking about good open world PvP.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Bamboozled

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/13
Posts: 29

6/28/13 10:25:31 AM#408
Originally posted by Sovrath

Unfortunately the pvp community is polluted with cowards, psychopaths, a##holes, rude little children (of a variety of ages) who don't know when to stop. I remember one guy who was just a plain sh&t. I was talking to some people who knew him in real life and essentially he really was  an unwashed, cranky, bitter Assh*le.

It's funny, but most people that commit murder in real life fit the same description.

Guns have simply made it easier for cowards to kill.

 

Back on topic, I love PvP but only with certain checks and balances in place.

 

For instance, PS1 was a great environment for PvP. Why? Because of a well designed horizontal progression system of advancement. A BR1 has a pretty good chance of taking down a BR20 due to the fact that everyone had the same hit points. Granted the BR20 had more flexibility and some additional skills, but the base metrics were the same.

In most MMOs, winning in PvP comes down to who has the best gear. You can say that tactics win over gear, but I don't believe it. Basically, you have to put the time in to make PvP enjoyable in an MMO. If you don't, you fall behind the curve and get stomped. It's something that I always disliked about PvP.

Now, it games like AA, Battlefield, or any arena based PvP, it's expected and you better have your tactics tight before you walk in there. I can accept getting trounced there. Because I know that we're all on equal footing as far as tactics/gear/damage. Or, there are checks and balances based on what archetype you choose to go in with (glass cannon, tank, ranged, etc).

I suppose my largest dislike of PvP is that it always seems to be put into an MMO as an afterthought. Without careful attention to the checks and balances that need to be in place in order to foster growth, collaboration, and the balance of grief/fun.

 

I want to acknowledge Shadowrun for a second, which was a great example of PvP IMO. I remember treading out into the world and getting ganked by a rank 5. Then putting the word out and getting a tell from someone asking where he was. I told him, and within 5 minutes a herd of minotaurs came barreling over a hill and proceeded to pound him into the ground.

 

It was a beautiful thing.

“He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”

- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  User Deleted
6/28/13 10:33:07 AM#409

Not specific enough: Do you mean open world pvp? Battlegrounds? What?

I've outgrown open world pvp. It has always degenerated into a grief/gank fest. It was rarely fun over the 13+ years I participated in it. Getting that surge of adrenaline was fun, but the annoyance at gankers/griefers pretty much outweighed that.

Structured PvP as it's now called, or battlegrounds/arena with fair teams I enjoy. I enjoy it a lot, actually.

 

  DeathWolf2u

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/04/04
Posts: 298

A new year let's hope for new games that don't suck.

6/28/13 10:35:32 AM#410
Originally posted by bcbully

It's not like you die IRL. It's a game sometimes you win sometimes you lose.  Is it because -

 

You lose a lot?

You can't get better?

It's scary?

To much adrenalin? 

It makes you angry?

PvP'rs are mean?

 

Outside of "I just don't like it" which is not an explanation, this is what I ask myself when I hear someone say "I wish there was no pvp" 

 

I mean to me PVP is the pinnacle off multiplayer gaming. You test your skills against mine. We use what we found in the world and see if it works. 

 

Why, please tell me. Maybe developers have done studies and stuff, but I haven't, I really don't get it.

 

Update - Top reasons

Lack of time

Mean player/ Nasty attitudes 

Not a competitive person

 

OBSERVATION - Every scenario given by those against PvP involves being the person that gets killed. Check it out for yourself. 

There's some really good stuff in here Thank you to those who are giving their time.

 

edit- they red text is not meant to demean. It's an observation, a true observation. If we reach the heart of the problem maybe it can be fixed. I made the observation text smaller and changed it back to white from red, for sake of civility.

 

Underlying Issue -The main cause of resentment seems to be bad game designs, with no risk of punishment for the griefer. In the scenarios given people are getting killed/camped with no recourse, and the camper has no fear of punishment. Who would want that? Come on devs you can do better!

 

Seriously?????? You missed the only reason, how about the majority of PKers are scripting. In basic terms they are cheating which is sooo easy to do in mmorpg's and it' all started back with UO.

 

There is only two types of PKers:

 

1. Those that are using some form of cheating, (the vast majority who are always screaming for PvP in mmorpg's or they won't touch it) or

2. The minority that try honestly to PK yet feel compelled to keep trying against the cheats, why I have no idea.

 

Until a company can actually produce some form of security on their side to prevent the use of scripts and other forms of cheating it will never go away. In fact it's been going strong since 1996 that I can remember and has been unchanged.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3200

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/28/13 10:58:42 AM#411


Originally posted by fyerwall
See, I love the "In Real Life" arguments.

You are playing an MMO. 

Throwing fireballs, riding dragons, running through lava pits, wandering frozen tundras for hours/days while wearing a simple leather tunic and not freezing to death... these you can suspend disbelief for...

Not being able to kill a player due to a magic/mystical protection... you cannot ignore because it can't be done in real life?

/migraine 



Same here. Couldn't that "mystical protection" be called "the internet?"

I wonder how many times these people beat up (or get beaten up by) those around them. How many times have they been minding their own business, filing some papers when all of a sudden, BOOM! Attacked.

Maybe I am the strange one, but this happens to me like never.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Sk1ppeR

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/12
Posts: 534

6/28/13 11:06:41 AM#412

90% of the PVP in MMO games is not balanced

 

Games like Guild Wars 2 that give you both flavors - balanced (spvp) and FOTM (WvW) are booed and spitted on for being boring

 

.... Go figure

  mad-hatter

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/04
Posts: 237

6/28/13 11:17:52 AM#413

I love pvp, it's all I play for, my problem is balance. 

A great example of this was in WAR online.  My buddies and I ran a 6 man, oh about a year or so ago,  I'd call it the prime for WAR,  really good fights, dying population but enough to make it fun.  We got to RR 80+, but slowly figured out that running into rr 100 groups led to defeat no matter what we tried.  We had even been called out in the forums by the high ranks saying that if it weren't for the hidden levels added into the realm ranks, we would had slaughtered them.  It usually ended up in stalemates, they couldn't kill us, but we couldn't even focus down a healer. 

It's hard to find a good balance and I can't imagine it's an easy task for the devs, but let's be honest, there isn't very many "good" pvp games out there that aren't pay to win or completely imbalanced.

  apocoluster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1297

\m/,

6/28/13 11:26:07 AM#414
I hate PvP coz I suck at it and don't feel like putting forthe the effort to get better.  I'm "ok" at world of tanks and that is my Pvp fix.  I e never been any good at mmo type Pvp so I don't play those games

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  Bravnik

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 141

6/28/13 11:34:56 AM#415

I think PVP has it's place which is in a true PVP game. What I don't like is an MMORPG that has a mix of PVE and PVP as you simply can't balance the game and have diversity of classes with a mix of both.

 

An MMO should be either PVP or PVE and nothing more. This way you can balance the game on the way the game was designed to be played. Just look what PVP has done to WOW. Thanks to PVP the PVE content has been dumbed down to the point of it being a joke. They have nerfed classes to death and made even their traits now cookie cutter.

 

PVP is fun in games it's designed solely for. Planetside, Battlefield 3, Halo etc. Keep that crap out of a PVE game and all is good. There is just simply no reason to have PVP in a PVE game. Did you buy the game to play the game or to run around in a little arena like an idiot.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

6/28/13 11:49:04 AM#416
Originally posted by Bravnik

I think PVP has it's place which is in a true PVP game. What I don't like is an MMORPG that has a mix of PVE and PVP as you simply can't balance the game and have diversity of classes with a mix of both.

I do believe the mix-em-together games do have a lot of issues.

But that's kind of challenging; despite legions of gamers willing to hurl simplistic answers ("Look, it's just this easy...") at the drop of a hat, the complexity adds some richness that the games wouldn't otherwise have.

Unfortunately, developers can't make people who just don't like each other very much live together with happiness and rainbows.

Social problems x asocial wretches... Just add water and run.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Rulgoth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 14

6/28/13 12:21:57 PM#417

I personally feel that the only legitimate reason to hate pvp is if it's implemented incorrectly, such as having no downside to banditry and no punishment to griefing. Not that there is anything wrong with disliking pvp because you are bad or are not competitive, just know that sandboxes are the future of MMOs, and sandboxes generally entail non-consensual pvp. So start practicing!

 

The next generation of sandboxes look to fix all that. Games leading in this field of research are Day Z(I know the mod is like, the worst example, but I am referring to what they are trying to achieve), Embers of Caerus and Trials of Ascension. Maybe EQ next will have something innovate as well.

As for the methods of culling the heard of griefers, my personal favorites are player factions/reputations and single character servers, which also ties in to reputation. Both of which will be in ToA, fortunately.. not sure about EoC. Though my all-time favorite is permadeath, another feature of ToA. It will benefit trolls greatly, but also be their bane. Only the most pathetic of bastards will sit there grinding in a hardcore difficult game, gathering loot and gear all for the sake of risking his character to gank people, so you only need worry about bandits, which is a legitimate gameplay style.

  sacredfool

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/07
Posts: 712

6/28/13 12:28:02 PM#418

I like PvP. In PvP games. Where the game was designed from ground up around the PvP. I like PvP in games like EVE Online for example.

 

I hate PvP in my PvE games. Where PvP is basically grinding the same battleground over and over again or where "Open world PvP" is added to the world by simply allowing players to attack each other in a PvE enviroment (I am at you AoC!).

 

Hell, i even liked PvP in Anarchy online, but that was only because of the fact gear was not level locked there and getting decent gear on your character required real planning - not grinding.


Originally posted by nethaniah

Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.


  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

6/28/13 12:31:18 PM#419
I will say I find it amazing that they locked my satirical thread about this one, but have yet to lock this most obvious troll thread. This site's moderation is as always quite stellar.
  Kanester

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/10
Posts: 352

6/28/13 12:36:31 PM#420
I like the way TERA have done their world pvp. Not a gank fest but still need to be smart when you flag yourself.

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