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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Please, tell me why you hate PVP so much. I just don't understand.

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542 posts found
  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3477

6/27/13 6:24:19 PM#361
Originally posted by Grym

First of all, your screen name says a lot.  BcBully? 

Second, PvPers are not the ones who "work hard" at getting better.  Crafters, questers, explorers, and PvEers are the ones who normally discover new content by spending hours working at those pursuits.  The crafter who spends most of his time trying to create something isn't exactly thrilled about the prospect of some douche coming along and killing him with their "Leet" skills and depriving him of all his hard work.  Questers and Explorers want to seek out new content without the threat of some jughead jumping in and ruining their fun in the middle of a particularly challenging PVE experience. 

The way you descibed it made me laugh and I think this really needs to be put in a comic :)

Third, no one likes being griefed. 

Fourth, someone in this thread said people were too lazy to figure out the mechanics of "min maxing".  RPers aren't really interested in the min max aspect as they want to create the character they want to be.  Dredging up the requirement to min max adds a modern day element that some find takes away from their immersion.

I call that spreadsheet pvp. Min maxing is a total snorefest to me. Most of them just look up some guide , so I guess the 'skill' they are talking about is their reading skill.

Fifth, you enjoy PvP, good for you.  Don't expect everyone to enjoy the same things you do.  Do you like everything everyone else does?  If so, you're easily amused.

 

Good luck making some of the 'true pvp'ers' understand what you are saying.

 

 

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5178

6/27/13 7:06:02 PM#362
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Most people on this site I've seen hating PvP don't appear to have ever played a PvP game.

 

They play the crappy tacked on PvP systems in PvE games and think all PvP is exactly the same. When they picture FFA PVP all they picture is themselves playing their linear PvE game, going into instances, except now they picture themselves getting one shotted by other players while doing these things. They don't understand that FFA PVP games usually have vastly different game systems and designs than WoW clones.

 

It's the same kind of thing that makes people fear a world without instances, when the only MMOs they've ever played have had instances, and they can't see how it works.

Balderdash. I love PvP and have played the most hardcore PvP games out there. If it's FFA  PvP nothing can protect you. It might cost me a little time but if I want you dead I'll make it so. If I want it bad enough I'll do it twice, or fifty times.

That comment doesn't seem to, in any way, relate to my post that you quoted.

The game systems aren't vastly different. Their imaginings are true. They will be doing whatever and they will get steamrolled.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  exwin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/07
Posts: 224

6/27/13 7:24:38 PM#363

I don't hate PvP, although I'm adverse to being forced to do it, I have rolled PvP characters on every mmo I have ever played. 

In every game it works the same. Yes there are some slight differences, but generally speaking this is mmo PvP.

You enter the area and buff up for battle (if you are in a pvp server you are already there, so can skip that step). You run out of the group staging area in your mass of people and run toward the objective, be it a flag, opposing city, helpless noob, whatever.

 You pick out your target out of the mass of the other group, sometimes strategically if there is a healer, if it is some noob then target selection not a big deal. You bonsai or nuke your target, because everyone is a dps or a healer, what is the point of a tank.

The combat is intense button mashing for 4 seconds, 6-8 seconds if you have a healer paying attention, then either you of the other sap dies and goes to the bind point. If you live, you target someone else and repeat this step. If you die, you run right back and do the same thing again. 

It is fun in short bursts, but this is why most pvp games get some pve content, AoC, or die, APB. Every game, every time, just like this. How long until it gets super boring? 10 times? 100? 500,000? It is still the same process, only the scenery changes. 

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2423

6/27/13 7:33:34 PM#364
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Most people on this site I've seen hating PvP don't appear to have ever played a PvP game.

 

They play the crappy tacked on PvP systems in PvE games and think all PvP is exactly the same. When they picture FFA PVP all they picture is themselves playing their linear PvE game, going into instances, except now they picture themselves getting one shotted by other players while doing these things. They don't understand that FFA PVP games usually have vastly different game systems and designs than WoW clones.

 

It's the same kind of thing that makes people fear a world without instances, when the only MMOs they've ever played have had instances, and they can't see how it works.

Balderdash. I love PvP and have played the most hardcore PvP games out there. If it's FFA  PvP nothing can protect you. It might cost me a little time but if I want you dead I'll make it so. If I want it bad enough I'll do it twice, or fifty times.

That comment doesn't seem to, in any way, relate to my post that you quoted.

The game systems aren't vastly different. Their imaginings are true. They will be doing whatever and they will get steamrolled.

Yes, in a FFA PVP game it is possible to die whenever. What's the point of stating this really?

It is also entirely possible to kill the other person. Depending on the game, the in game guards might even get them before you get them.

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

6/27/13 7:46:14 PM#365
Originally posted by exwin

I don't hate PvP, although I'm adverse to being forced to do it, I have rolled PvP characters on every mmo I have ever played. 

In every game it works the same. Yes there are some slight differences, but generally speaking this is mmo PvP.

You enter the area and buff up for battle (if you are in a pvp server you are already there, so can skip that step). You run out of the group staging area in your mass of people and run toward the objective, be it a flag, opposing city, helpless noob, whatever.

 You pick out your target out of the mass of the other group, sometimes strategically if there is a healer, if it is some noob then target selection not a big deal. You bonsai or nuke your target, because everyone is a dps or a healer, what is the point of a tank.

The combat is intense button mashing for 4 seconds, 6-8 seconds if you have a healer paying attention, then either you of the other sap dies and goes to the bind point. If you live, you target someone else and repeat this step. If you die, you run right back and do the same thing again. 

It is fun in short bursts, but this is why most pvp games get some pve content, AoC, or die, APB. Every game, every time, just like this. How long until it gets super boring? 10 times? 100? 500,000? It is still the same process, only the scenery changes. 

 

PVE is exactly like this in a far worst degree.

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Trudge34

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 388

6/27/13 8:12:53 PM#366

Why do I hate OWPvP? This would be a start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDbDrHEQEv0

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  shirlnt

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 354

6/27/13 8:46:15 PM#367

This post is growing faster than I can keep up with, so if someone has already pointed this out then I apologize ahead of time but....

I've seen at least a couple of people say there is no such thing as "forced" pvp, that the player always has the choice.  When people refer to "forced," they are referring to FFA PvP because the only "choice" there if one does not want to PvP is to not buy/play the game.  Other than that, I do not consider walking along minding my own business or out harvesting resources and suddenly finding myself dead on the ground going "what the heck, how'd I die?" because someone one shot killed me before I even realized they were there being given a "choice" (I would have included PvEing in my list of things I was doing when another player killed me but then one could argue that I wouldn't know if it was the npc/animals that killed me or the player or what combination of the two....although it still would not be a "choice" because I was busy doing something else rather than knowingly engaging in PvP).  As far as the "choice" of not buying the game, that's great, as long as I have a choice to buy an equally great game with only PvE or, preferably, a combination of PvE and in-world consensual PvP (as in I choose when I am open for PvP and when I am not...whether by talking to an npc and agreeing to join the war efforts like the system SWG had, clicking on something in options, or typing out some command.....although I prefer not to have a TEF system because it is too easy to be accidently pulled into PvP).

 

For the person who decided none of us that were against FFA PvP had ever played a game with FFA PvP, sorry but wrong.  Although I knew I did not like FFA PvP, I have been trying for years to find something that had the sandbox goodness of SWG Pre-CU including players not have levels and not being limited to one skill set, so I tried a game that looked like it had some good features although it was FFA.  The combat system was very awkward to me and I was having a difficult time just fighting the animals in the area.  Since there were supposedly options in how one could play the game, I decided to stay in the "newbie" area (hoping it was a safe area) for a while, work on some crafting skills and try to improve my combat skills (my ability to deal with the controls system of the game as much as improving my character's skills).  I'm attempting to attack a deer when I get the message that I've broken some law (don't remember exactly how the message went).  I have no clue what to do so I keep attacking the deer.  I die.  I respawn and have to find my way back to my corpse, by now it is night time in the game and so dark I can't see anything.  I've lost all the stuff I was attempting to gather.  I have no clue whether I was attacked by someone or another player got too close to me and I accidently started the fight (like I said, awkward controls).  People's suggestion in chat was to join a guild (which may make sense but isn't always easy to do when one first joins a game, especially if one doesn't want to just join the first random guild they find).  As others have said, people play games to have fun and the game had already pushed my frustration level too much so I logged out and deleted the game.

 

My other negative experiences with PvP came out of SWG and the TEF system, but I quickly learned how to have the fun of killing npc stormtroopers and doing other rebel missions while lowering the risk of other players finding me.

 

Oh....and here's an anti-PvP scenerio  that involves me being the winner (just in case there still hasn't been one):  I agreed to PvP with a guildmate.  I usually stink at PvP so I'm just spamming attacks as quickly as I can.  At one time, the game had a system where the winner had to make a choice to kill the loser (I think it was a pop-up but don't really recall now) but the system had changed so if the winner attacked once more after the other person had fallen, the attack killed the other person.  With my spamming attacks, by the time I registered that I had won, I had already attacked again causing the guildmate to die (difference being that rather than the person being able to stand up after the fight was over and be healed on the spot, the person had to respawn or have a costly rezz kit used on them and took damage to their equipment).  We went a few more rounds and almost every time I won, I would accidently kill the guy.  I apologized to him and felt bad about it.   The negative in this scenerio is more of a flaw in the system that I didn't like because I don't have an issue with consensual 1 on 1 pvp (although I do have an issue with random pvp invites especially getting spammed with them).  As far as the "observation" that scenerios are usually about the person losing, it would be common sense for the scenerios to be from that point of view because it is usually the loser that experiences the negative side of PvP, other than feeling guilty about winning or getting spammed or harrassed by the loser, there is very little negative to be experienced by the winner and the negative can easily be dealt with be either a) intentionally losing, b) compensating for the loser's losses, or c) muting/ignoring person to prevent IMs,  As people have pointed out, there are "bad apples" in PvE and PvP,  difference is, in PvE, dealing with "bad apples" is usually easier (although there are some exceptions).

  JRRNeiklot

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/11
Posts: 101

6/27/13 9:24:28 PM#368
Originally posted by bcbully

It's not like you die IRL. It's a game sometimes you win sometimes you lose.  Is it because -

 

 

Outside of "I just don't like it" which is not an explanation, this is what I ask myself when I hear someone say "I wish there was no pvp" 

 

I mean to me PVP is the pinnacle off multiplayer gaming. You test your skills against mine. We use what we found in the world and see if it works. 


 

Two boxers meeting in a ring are testing their skills against each other.  One boxer attacking the other while he's taking a shit is not.

  _redruM_

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/04
Posts: 34

6/27/13 9:36:24 PM#369
Originally posted by exwin

I don't hate PvP, although I'm adverse to being forced to do it, I have rolled PvP characters on every mmo I have ever played. 

In every game it works the same. Yes there are some slight differences, but generally speaking this is mmo PvP.

You enter the area and buff up for battle (if you are in a pvp server you are already there, so can skip that step). You run out of the group staging area in your mass of people and run toward the objective, be it a flag, opposing city, helpless noob, whatever.

 You pick out your target out of the mass of the other group, sometimes strategically if there is a healer, if it is some noob then target selection not a big deal. You bonsai or nuke your target, because everyone is a dps or a healer, what is the point of a tank.

The combat is intense button mashing for 4 seconds, 6-8 seconds if you have a healer paying attention, then either you of the other sap dies and goes to the bind point. If you live, you target someone else and repeat this step. If you die, you run right back and do the same thing again.

The problem is, what you've just described is the Battlegrounds type of pvp you see in most MMOs these days. In that case, you're right, it gets old pretty quick. When I first encountered open world pvp, I hated it also. I'm not a hardcore gamer who plays 8 hours a day and can always stay ahead of the curve. However, I grew to enjoy the pvp aspect, and when I tried newer games without open world pvp, I realized just how important it was.

 

When I think of open world pvp, I think of my 6+ year experience in Lineage 2. I remember countless battles that could last hours. The biggest difference is that pvp can happen when you don't expect it. And it makes a huge difference. The game is much more thrilling and suspenseful when anyone you come across could decide to kill you at any moment. Likewise, stronger bonds are formed when people choose to help you out instead of killing you. You don't get that type of experience in games where the only reason people are helping/killing you at a particular point in time is because it's their only option. Battleground/instanced pvp that is disconnected from pve gets old quickly because it's essentially meaningless. Open world pvp is much more significant, because it ties into the pve aspect of the game and affects everyone. When valuable resources, items, character levels and the like are on the line, it's far less boring than fight, die, respawn, repeat until the instance ends or you get bored and turn pvp "off".

It is fun in short bursts, but this is why most pvp games get some pve content, AoC, or die, APB. Every game, every time, just like this. How long until it gets super boring? 10 times? 100? 500,000? It is still the same process, only the scenery changes. 

I could say the exact opposite. This is why pve games need pvp content. How many times can you repeat the same kill x of y quests, or do the same dungeon or raid before it gets super boring? My answer to that question is, not long. Artificial Intelligence in games has not yet reached a point where it can provide any real challenge or variety. Oftentimes the scenery doesn't even change, and the dialogue is all recycled which no one bothers to read anyway because they don't have to.

 

The only real longevity a game can maintain is through pvp content. Pve cannot keep up with the playerbase. The beautiful thing about strong pvp content in an open pvp environment is that the game and it's landscape is ever-evolving as a result of the community itself. Huge alliances are formed and broken due to actions of people involved, and politics and diplomacy are an ever-present and ever-important part of the game. Someone did something that really pissed you off? Declare war on his entire guild, slow their pve progression to a halt and do everything you can to make them regret what they did. You can't do that sort of thing when you can't attack someone because the game simply doesn't let you, or the game provides some nonsensical arbitrary barrier like factions. Players should create the factions themselves.

 

If people have the choice to avoid pvp whenever they want, then they will simply avoid it when it doesn't go their way. This makes it meaningless in the big picture of the game's landscape. Thus, the game's long-standing appeal suffers when you're stuck with doing the same recycled pve content over and over.

 

My 2 cents.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5178

6/27/13 9:36:48 PM#370
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Most people on this site I've seen hating PvP don't appear to have ever played a PvP game.

 

They play the crappy tacked on PvP systems in PvE games and think all PvP is exactly the same. When they picture FFA PVP all they picture is themselves playing their linear PvE game, going into instances, except now they picture themselves getting one shotted by other players while doing these things. They don't understand that FFA PVP games usually have vastly different game systems and designs than WoW clones.

 

It's the same kind of thing that makes people fear a world without instances, when the only MMOs they've ever played have had instances, and they can't see how it works.

Balderdash. I love PvP and have played the most hardcore PvP games out there. If it's FFA  PvP nothing can protect you. It might cost me a little time but if I want you dead I'll make it so. If I want it bad enough I'll do it twice, or fifty times.

That comment doesn't seem to, in any way, relate to my post that you quoted.

The game systems aren't vastly different. Their imaginings are true. They will be doing whatever and they will get steamrolled.

Yes, in a FFA PVP game it is possible to die whenever. What's the point of stating this really?

It is also entirely possible to kill the other person. Depending on the game, the in game guards might even get them before you get them.

The point is it makes no difference what game. There is no magic PvP game where it will all be wonderful for PvE players because it's not WoW. To people who don't want to PvP all PvP games are the same. Your whole initial post was nonsensical.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Remyi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 14

6/27/13 10:37:42 PM#371

I don't hate PvP, I just hate the cocky kids who ruin it for the rest of us with their bragging and insults. I also hate the high level people who sit around and camp low levels. Don't you have anything better to do than farm people who stand no chance?

If you find yourself wondering why people won't flag and fight you in a game, look at yourselves. Instead of being an elitist prick, just accept that you killed someone and move on instead of making that person feel like crap.

  RedMachine72

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/10
Posts: 78

6/27/13 11:34:18 PM#372
I actually like pvp....when I choose to participate. That is why I will only roll on a PVE server of any game. If the game has no PVE servers, I don't play it. I like the leveling process and open pvp gets in the way. End game, I play pvp matches, battlegrounds or arena, whatever the game has, but it's my choice to enter it.
  Shmackpappy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/29/11
Posts: 77

6/27/13 11:36:16 PM#373
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Shmackpappy
I just prefer PVE that's all.  I'm not sure why "I just don't like it" is not reason enough.  I don't hate PVP it's just not what I enjoy doing so I will not play a game with forced PVP. 

I understand you just don't like pvp. I asked why. 

 

As I have said earlier. There has never been an mmorpg that has forced you to pvp, and no player has ever been forced to pvp. You have always had choice. 

I'm not sure how this has even generated so much discussion.  It's just what I prefer.  Some like coffee and some prefer tea.  Why?  Who cares?

  kruler

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/06
Posts: 333

6/27/13 11:50:05 PM#374

To the OP, this isn't an insult or demeaning, but lets be honest, if you don't get why some people hate PVP  I don't think anything anyone says here is going to help you.

A clue however,  its not 95% of PVP'ers that have caused all those people to dislike PVP so much, and there is a long long  history of broken and low population MMORPG,s out there that stand as testament to real or perceived problems of PVP in MMORPGs.

People singular are OK but put them into a massive crowd then at the same time make them all anonymous, a 1000 different ways of asshattyness (real word, I made it) well manifest itself within 10 mins in an uncontrolled environment, the Lord of the Flies effect at the very least.

There is no God, there is no Devil, nor Angels and Demons, there is only us, surely thats bad enough, for no creature is able to commit such acts of hate and love, sometimes in the same day.

  Sajman01

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 208

6/28/13 12:53:34 AM#375
I like PvP, thats why I play Dota2.

I play MMOs for the gear grind and raiding.
  Kuro1n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 774

6/28/13 12:59:05 AM#376

I absolutely love PVP, it is the only reason I am playing MMORPGs, to gear up massmurder peoples avatars. If I wanted to play for the story I'd be playing singleplayer games. PVE just cant entertain.

That said, massmurder does not mean slaughtering lowlevels or such, just people you stalk for a while before jumping them at the right moment. Sadly most games these days are so much games and so little world. Prefered the days when you actually gained something from killing others and people actually took note and started hunting you. The adrenaline when you had a bunch of people in your heels with a ton of good loot and they all want you killed preferably a few times over.

 

Those games are gone though and so are the PK vs PKK (anti pks). :(

  Magnetia

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 964

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.

6/28/13 1:11:04 AM#377

Actually I think it's tha fact that PvP is implemented badly in most games. 

The only true PvP games I can think of are counterstrike and fighting games. Where both players are on an even playing field and no access to external power.

MMOs or modern shooters on the other hand allow veteran players to gain much more gear allowing them to have much more choice over tactics. So when you PvP now it's a matter of getting the best gear and not getting the best skills.

TLDR Counterstrike is true pvp. MMO pvp is just for fun.

Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2312

World > Quest Progression

6/28/13 1:19:01 AM#378
Originally posted by bcbully

It's not like you die IRL. It's a game sometimes you win sometimes you lose.  Is it because -

 

You lose a lot?

You can't get better?

It's scary?

To much adrenalin? 

It makes you angry?

PvP'rs are mean?

 

Outside of "I just don't like it" which is not an explanation, this is what I ask myself when I hear someone say "I wish there was no pvp" 

 

I mean to me PVP is the pinnacle off multiplayer gaming. You test your skills against mine. We use what we found in the world and see if it works. 

 

Why, please tell me. Maybe developers have done studies and stuff, but I haven't, I really don't get it.

 

Update - Top reasons

Lack of time

Mean player/ Nasty attitudes 

Not a competitive person

 

OBSERVATION - Every scenario given by those against PvP involves being the person that gets killed. Check it out for yourself. 

There's some really good stuff in here Thank you to those who are giving their time.

 

edit- they red text is not meant to demean. It's an observation, a true observation. If we reach the heart of the problem maybe it can be fixed. I made the observation text smaller and changed it back to white from red, for sake of civility.

 

Underlying Issue -The main cause of resentment seems to be bad game designs, with no risk of punishment for the griefer. In the scenarios given people are getting killed/camped with no recourse, and the camper has no fear of punishment. Who would want that? Come on devs you can do better!

 

 

While I agree that PvP systems can be improved to get more involved the main point is:

 

People just don't want to PvP

 

The reason? It doesn't matter and they don't owe you an explaination.  The main problem here is that the lack of wanting to PvP is seen as a problem that needs to be fixed.  It doesn't.  They aren't too scared, too intimidated or too shy to PvP and whenever it's framed that way it honestly makes the commenter look very foolish in my eyes at least.  There are some people, I was one of them, that always stayed away from PvP and it had to do with a difference in goal while playing MMOs... simple as that.  The PvPers tend to be the ones attaching all of the drama to it and it's not needed.

 

I really do appreciate you trying to make PvP better and the end result could be better for all.  It's just incorrect to assume there is a problem with people who don't want to PvP.

  Kuro1n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 774

6/28/13 1:19:25 AM#379
Originally posted by Magnetia

Actually I think it's tha fact that PvP is implemented badly in most games. 

The only true PvP games I can think of are counterstrike and fighting games. Where both players are on an even playing field and no access to external power.

MMOs or modern shooters on the other hand allow veteran players to gain much more gear allowing them to have much more choice over tactics. So when you PvP now it's a matter of getting the best gear and not getting the best skills.

TLDR Counterstrike is true pvp. MMO pvp is just for fun.

Here you got it all wrong, not everyone enjoys esport. Esport is one kind of PVP remember though that there are many kinds, warfare, market pvp (in case of EVE for example), there is the open world PVP for spots/areas and there is the ganking and PKing. Ofc there are many more ways but you can't say one way is right and the other is not. Tell EVE players that their PVP is just for fun and not real and see what they got to say about that.

  Atrocitus

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/12
Posts: 75

6/28/13 1:27:55 AM#380

Let's be honest people.. most people who do not like pvp is because they are bad at it.  Period..  they'll never admit though..

If i was horrible at it id hate it also, but im not...

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