Trending Games | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn | Star Wars: The Old Republic | EverQuest | Pirate101

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,901,190 Users Online:0
Games:753  Posts:6,271,609
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why does PvP have to be Non-Consensual to be considered 'Good PvP'?

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 Search
120 posts found
  itchmon

Elite Member

Joined: 1/21/07
Posts: 1583

6/26/13 5:31:58 AM#101
Originally posted by fyerwall
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by fyerwall

There has been a lot of discussion as of late on the EQ:Next boards about PvP. One of the issue that has been stated is that if PvP is in any way consensual its bad PvP.

I originally posted this question in a thread there, but only got one answer which really wasn't much of an answer, so I thought I would ask it here;

Why does PvP have to be Non-Consensual to be considered 'Good PvP'?

I think most players feel exactly the opposite.  Consensual competitive games like Soccer, LoL, TF2, and Chess are vastly more popular than the MMORPGs which have non-consensual PVP.  Consensual competitive games dominate.

Well that's what I am trying to figure out here. There are a lot of PvP centric games out there, but watching the threads about EQ:N, there are people saying for PvP to be good in an MMO it has to be FFA Non-consensual. Anything else would lead to bad PvP.

to me, the pvp being "meaningful" is FAR more important than it being "consensual".

meaningful, again to me, meaning that something is at stake over the outcome rather than just one person won and one person lost.  (i know, that alone is a motivator for some people but not me)

 

EX: in eve where a pvp battle might determine ownership of a system (a zone in eve)

 

this is the essence of pvp in an mmo to me; this is even though in eve the pvp is in a grey area between non consensual and consensual (there are areas in eve where you get punished for PK to the point where it rarely happens).

 

thanks for reading.

RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

Dwight D Eisenhower

My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

Henry Rollins

  Rylah

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/09
Posts: 187

6/26/13 11:10:57 AM#102
I've played Eve for 2 years, nearly all of that in nullsec, flown with some of the best FCs in the game, I have always look for a conflict and content and I have had less than a dozen "good fights" in that game.

Sov warfare is dull grind, rest of it is ganking to a varying degree. Eve is the quintessential game for gank warfare. For example, goons do not engage if they do not have at least 2:1 odds. They don't do even fights and they have the numbers to pull it off. They don't need to be good, they just need to bring more people.

Its not fun for goons and its not fun for their opponents either. Then I hear this drivel "this simulates real war" ... no it doesn't. Its a game! Wars, in games, are started by people who are bored. It can never simulate real war, and falling short of real war, what it devolves into is not fun for great many people.

Your post seems to be an expression of a very common misconception, or better: a very common but IMO too restricted way of looking at PvP.

The actual fighting is  only a very small part of PvP. It is merely the culmination of all the other aspects. Just like the actual shot is only a very small part of hunting and comes only after all the preparations, the tracking, the luring, the choice of time and spot, the exploit of the surroundings, landscape, weather, the training and use of dogs etc.

And still most people reduce PvP to the actual fight and complain about it being "unfair". Well if you want fair fights there is no way around an Arena like GW2 sPvP.

But for me that isn't enough. It is a boring and dull grind.

And now EvE. The art of PvP shows not in the actual fights alone, but in the preparation. All the fun is in the metagame which gives you nearly limitless possibilities. There are quite some ways to avoid the gank scenario and also it can be exploited for more fun when you get some friends and bumrush them.

Chess players don't complain about the rules and try to impose their own idea of how a game should be played on the pieces, but if chess was an MMO players would probably complain about white having an unfair advantage and whine on the game forums that the movement of the Knights is totally OP and the Queen should be taken out (only for the opponent of course) and some would probably also complain that their King got ganked by some no life basement dweller.

But FFA games and chess have one thing in common: Preparation is much more important than a single match or fight which is only an expression of your understanding of the game at a certain point in time.

Btw. regarding the argument that FFA games are not financially feasible because of being elitist... Not true. EvE and even UO tell otherwise. PvP games do not tank because of the FFA PvP but because thery are just bad games. FFA PVP alone without a sandbox, deep economy etc.  doesn't cut it. You need the whole package to have a good game, otherwise there is no emergent gameplay and the self fufilling prophecy of gank and destroy happens.

In less deep games or themeparks non consensual PvP is at least a bit of flavour. I am quite happy when it is restricted to PvP servers in such games since then there is less complaining, but even then there is usually a vocal minority starting to hardcore whine instead of just choosing a PvE server. Tera was a disgusting example of that.

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1880

6/26/13 11:54:12 AM#103

Dark Age of Camelot.

 

The best faction vs faction game ever made

has pve areas and area's of faction vs faction fighting

all fighting is consensual..you go into certain clearly identified areas where fighting can occur.Best faction vs faction game ever made.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

6/26/13 12:17:42 PM#104
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

because consensual pvp is basically a battleground. the element of danger is nonexistent if you can prevent another player from killing you with you ... checkbox.

 

So what if it is an battleground? E-sports are not good games anymore?

The point of pvp does not have to be danger all the time .. it can be ... e-sport .. skill vs skill.

that's great. but not specifically what I'm looking for in an MMO. Those games are great, but when I go for steak I don't want chicken. I love chicken though. Just not during steak meals.

well .. if other players don't want non-consensual pvp in a MMO, then you are out of luck. You can force others to play with you in ways they are not having fun.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5620

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/26/13 12:25:16 PM#105
Originally posted by Rylah
 

Your post seems to be an expression of a very common misconception, or better: a very common but IMO too restricted way of looking at PvP.

The actual fighting is  only a very small part of PvP. It is merely the culmination of all the other aspects. Just like the actual shot is only a very small part of hunting and comes only after all the preparations, the tracking, the luring, the choice of time and spot, the exploit of the surroundings, landscape, weather, the training and use of dogs etc.

And still most people reduce PvP to the actual fight and complain about it being "unfair". Well if you want fair fights there is no way around an Arena like GW2 sPvP.

But for me that isn't enough. It is a boring and dull grind.

And now EvE. The art of PvP shows not in the actual fights alone, but in the preparation. All the fun is in the metagame which gives you nearly limitless possibilities. There are quite some ways to avoid the gank scenario and also it can be exploited for more fun when you get some friends and bumrush them.

Chess players don't complain about the rules and try to impose their own idea of how a game should be played on the pieces, but if chess was an MMO players would probably complain about white having an unfair advantage and whine on the game forums that the movement of the Knights is totally OP and the Queen should be taken out (only for the opponent of course) and some would probably also complain that their King got ganked by some no life basement dweller.

But FFA games and chess have one thing in common: Preparation is much more important than a single match or fight which is only an expression of your understanding of the game at a certain point in time.

Btw. regarding the argument that FFA games are not financially feasible because of being elitist... Not true. EvE and even UO tell otherwise. PvP games do not tank because of the FFA PvP but because thery are just bad games. FFA PVP alone without a sandbox, deep economy etc.  doesn't cut it. You need the whole package to have a good game, otherwise there is no emergent gameplay and the self fufilling prophecy of gank and destroy happens.

In less deep games or themeparks non consensual PvP is at least a bit of flavour. I am quite happy when it is restricted to PvP servers in such games since then there is less complaining, but even then there is usually a vocal minority starting to hardcore whine instead of just choosing a PvE server. Tera was a disgusting example of that.

Oh, please... I know as much about the metagame as you. And it doesn't have enough mechanics outside combat to make it interesting. I know my way around Eve so you can spare me the usual gibberish. Its a game just like any other and suffers from, among its own, much of the same shortcomings many other games do.

My view is not restriced. I am looking at the game as a whole and finding it unsatisfactory. You're the one saying there's no preparation or grander metagame behind consensual PvP or competitive PvP. The fact that you made such a pejorative comment about those games shows that you're quite ignorant about the matter.

[mod edit]

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5620

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/26/13 12:28:08 PM#106
Originally posted by itchmon
Originally posted by fyerwall
 

to me, the pvp being "meaningful" is FAR more important than it being "consensual".

meaningful, again to me, meaning that something is at stake over the outcome rather than just one person won and one person lost.  (i know, that alone is a motivator for some people but not me)

 

EX: in eve where a pvp battle might determine ownership of a system (a zone in eve)

 

this is the essence of pvp in an mmo to me; this is even though in eve the pvp is in a grey area between non consensual and consensual (there are areas in eve where you get punished for PK to the point where it rarely happens).

 

thanks for reading.

The meaningfulness of an engagement is entirely subjective and a separate matter. You can decide the fate of a fortress, a town, a mine, a province, a star system or a space station through either non-consensual or consensual way.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  chopstix906

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/09
Posts: 60

6/26/13 12:37:47 PM#107

To me, consensual and non-consensual (open-world PvP) must come hand in hand. One without the other can cause imbalances.

On one hand, with only consensual PvP, there is no thrill of leveling in the world and always being on your guard for any threat from another player. It adds another level to the game that is necessary for any MMO imo.

On the other hand, with only open world PvP, it turns into a big gank/zerg fest that's only enjoyable for the winning side until the other decides to /ragequit. Then there is nothing.

Balance is the best bet imo. One without the other is bad news.

±MeDiC±

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

6/26/13 12:39:02 PM#108
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

The meaningfulness of an engagement is entirely subjective and a separate matter. You can decide the fate of a fortress, a town, a mine, a province, a star system or a space station through either non-consensual or consensual way.

yeah. And "meaningful" is subjective. For example, a story mission in STO is meaningful to trekkies, but may appearing as just "kill x quests" to others.

 

 

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

6/26/13 2:02:41 PM#109
Originally posted by itchmon
Originally posted by fyerwall
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by fyerwall

There has been a lot of discussion as of late on the EQ:Next boards about PvP. One of the issue that has been stated is that if PvP is in any way consensual its bad PvP.

I originally posted this question in a thread there, but only got one answer which really wasn't much of an answer, so I thought I would ask it here;

Why does PvP have to be Non-Consensual to be considered 'Good PvP'?

I think most players feel exactly the opposite.  Consensual competitive games like Soccer, LoL, TF2, and Chess are vastly more popular than the MMORPGs which have non-consensual PVP.  Consensual competitive games dominate.

Well that's what I am trying to figure out here. There are a lot of PvP centric games out there, but watching the threads about EQ:N, there are people saying for PvP to be good in an MMO it has to be FFA Non-consensual. Anything else would lead to bad PvP.

to me, the pvp being "meaningful" is FAR more important than it being "consensual".

meaningful, again to me, meaning that something is at stake over the outcome rather than just one person won and one person lost.  (i know, that alone is a motivator for some people but not me)

 

EX: in eve where a pvp battle might determine ownership of a system (a zone in eve)

 

this is the essence of pvp in an mmo to me; this is even though in eve the pvp is in a grey area between non consensual and consensual (there are areas in eve where you get punished for PK to the point where it rarely happens).

 

thanks for reading.

Ownership of a system in EVE always seemed to me like a trite reason for PvP.  It just never seemed like a very meaningful accomplishment to me,  Blowing up other people's stuff just seemed like such a wasteful way to accomplish anything. 

  Biskop

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 731

6/26/13 2:12:14 PM#110
Originally posted by Quirhid

Games are entertainment - they are supposed to be fun. They can be war-themed, many are, but at the end of the day, they are games. War is not fun. It is everything but. And they are not started because someone got bored (vast majority at least weren't).

Non-consentual PvP is not war. It is not even close. The same people who claim that are the ones who think grinding signatures and anomalies in Eve is "exploration". Or spawn camping "baddies" in Fall of Mankind is "keeping the peace". Don't be that guy.

The idea that the metagame in Eve is war or simulates war is a joke. At the end of the day it is just a game, and that makes all the difference.

Real war is not fun, true.

Playing a game or indulging in other fiction that - in some ways - simulates some aspects of war, however, can be incredibly fun to many, many people. Otherwise, why would we play strategy games and table tops, and shooters like CoD and BF? Why is the market full of countless books, TV series and movies about WW2 and other historical wars?

War is fascinating and a lot of people like their entertainment to put them in the role of a mighty general or a brave soldier. Of course this does not mean that they would like to be a real general or a real soldier, or that the fiction has to simulate a truly warlike experience to be influenced by the popular image of war (after all, most of us has not experienced real life warfare).

People simply compare MMO FFA PvP with warfare because it's more akin to that type of conflict than to sports, which is what a lot of people actually want when they talk about "real" PvP.

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

6/26/13 2:26:45 PM#111
Originally posted by Rylah
I've played Eve for 2 years, nearly all of that in nullsec, flown with some of the best FCs in the game, I have always look for a conflict and content and I have had less than a dozen "good fights" in that game.

Sov warfare is dull grind, rest of it is ganking to a varying degree. Eve is the quintessential game for gank warfare. For example, goons do not engage if they do not have at least 2:1 odds. They don't do even fights and they have the numbers to pull it off. They don't need to be good, they just need to bring more people.

Its not fun for goons and its not fun for their opponents either. Then I hear this drivel "this simulates real war" ... no it doesn't. Its a game! Wars, in games, are started by people who are bored. It can never simulate real war, and falling short of real war, what it devolves into is not fun for great many people.

Your post seems to be an expression of a very common misconception, or better: a very common but IMO too restricted way of looking at PvP.

The actual fighting is  only a very small part of PvP. It is merely the culmination of all the other aspects. Just like the actual shot is only a very small part of hunting and comes only after all the preparations, the tracking, the luring, the choice of time and spot, the exploit of the surroundings, landscape, weather, the training and use of dogs etc.

And still most people reduce PvP to the actual fight and complain about it being "unfair". Well if you want fair fights there is no way around an Arena like GW2 sPvP.

But for me that isn't enough. It is a boring and dull grind.

And now EvE. The art of PvP shows not in the actual fights alone, but in the preparation. All the fun is in the metagame which gives you nearly limitless possibilities. There are quite some ways to avoid the gank scenario and also it can be exploited for more fun when you get some friends and bumrush them.

Chess players don't complain about the rules and try to impose their own idea of how a game should be played on the pieces, but if chess was an MMO players would probably complain about white having an unfair advantage and whine on the game forums that the movement of the Knights is totally OP and the Queen should be taken out (only for the opponent of course) and some would probably also complain that their King got ganked by some no life basement dweller.

But FFA games and chess have one thing in common: Preparation is much more important than a single match or fight which is only an expression of your understanding of the game at a certain point in time.

Btw. regarding the argument that FFA games are not financially feasible because of being elitist... Not true. EvE and even UO tell otherwise. PvP games do not tank because of the FFA PvP but because thery are just bad games. FFA PVP alone without a sandbox, deep economy etc.  doesn't cut it. You need the whole package to have a good game, otherwise there is no emergent gameplay and the self fufilling prophecy of gank and destroy happens.

In less deep games or themeparks non consensual PvP is at least a bit of flavour. I am quite happy when it is restricted to PvP servers in such games since then there is less complaining, but even then there is usually a vocal minority starting to hardcore whine instead of just choosing a PvE server. Tera was a disgusting example of that.

That was also  the lesson I took from EVE though my preferences are different so I came to a different conclusion.  PvP in EVE is part of the Big Picture and if you do not like or want to be part of it, you are better off not playing the game.  I find the metagame of EVE to be pointless and boring so all the effort I would put into the PvP side would not give me a meaningful result.  Frankly, I find the preparation part to be way more fun then the PvP itself and there is only so many times you can go through the process if there is no payoff in the end.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

6/26/13 2:36:00 PM#112

No amount of rewards, no amount of shinies...no amount of strings with something attached to it is going to bring meaning to PvP to me. PvP is either about challenge or it may as well be PvE. I could care less about capturing a castle to give my faction a "bonus"...I want players that freaking know how to play.

Non-Consensual PvP does NOT bring that, in fact in brings the opposite. It causes people to stay in packs and creates high level ganking...the two types of PvPing that makes a players skills weaken.

And sorry to break it to you, but I am from early UO back when it was ALL ABOUT PVP yet I can still say full open world PvP doesn't match up to games like Asherons Call where it was all consensual.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/26/13 3:00:13 PM#113
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Quirhid

 Then I hear this drivel "this simulates real war" ... no it doesn't. Its a game.

that's your counter-argument to "this simulate real war" ? you answer by "it doesn't, it's a game" ?

 

aloso...

you misunerstood, the game is a tool for the metagame and the metagame simulates real war.

 

other than the 300 spartans, i  can't think of many times when a group did not want to go to war with full benefits to maximize victory.

Games are entertainment - they are supposed to be fun. They can be war-themed, many are, but at the end of the day, they are games. War is not fun. It is everything but. And they are not started because someone got bored (vast majority at least weren't).

Non-consentual PvP is not war. It is not even close. The same people who claim that are the ones who think grinding signatures and anomalies in Eve is "exploration". Or spawn camping "baddies" in Fall of Mankind is "keeping the peace". Don't be that guy.

The idea that the metagame in Eve is war or simulates war is a joke. At the end of the day it is just a game, and that makes all the difference.

i'm not following.

 

can you give example of war then in a video game theme ?

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1504

6/26/13 3:27:17 PM#114
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by itchmon
Originally posted by fyerwall
 

to me, the pvp being "meaningful" is FAR more important than it being "consensual".

meaningful, again to me, meaning that something is at stake over the outcome rather than just one person won and one person lost.  (i know, that alone is a motivator for some people but not me)

 

EX: in eve where a pvp battle might determine ownership of a system (a zone in eve)

 

this is the essence of pvp in an mmo to me; this is even though in eve the pvp is in a grey area between non consensual and consensual (there are areas in eve where you get punished for PK to the point where it rarely happens).

 

thanks for reading.

The meaningfulness of an engagement is entirely subjective and a separate matter. You can decide the fate of a fortress, a town, a mine, a province, a star system or a space station through either non-consensual or consensual way.

And how do you do that? Just out of curiosity. If you need consense from the player ownign the mine, city.. he will always say no if someone want to attack him,, overtake it.

Or another example. If you need consense every miner will turn off his pvp flag to mine ore from that certain mine and you can do shit against it. So it becomes rather usesless to "own" a mine. The economic affect turns to zero.

The only way is that you restrict pvp to certain areas, like in EvE, where pvp areas, or areas with more risk have better or more resources to farm, where it would be more valuable to have a city or own a mine. PvP flag is in that scenario just a way to exploit the game and make it entirely useless.

Point is, and a lot of player don't understand that. That a lot of player want to have PvP absent of the figthing. A game where trading, crafting and resource gathering is part of the pvp game. And you can't have that with a pvp flag.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1504

6/26/13 3:30:22 PM#115
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

The meaningfulness of an engagement is entirely subjective and a separate matter. You can decide the fate of a fortress, a town, a mine, a province, a star system or a space station through either non-consensual or consensual way.

yeah. And "meaningful" is subjective. For example, a story mission in STO is meaningful to trekkies, but may appearing as just "kill x quests" to others.

 

 

No.. It is not. Meaningful means it will have effect in the game world. A story mission is a story mission, and as long as nothing changes in the world there is absolut no effect to the game world.. and with that it is not meaningful.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1939

6/26/13 3:31:49 PM#116
Frankly, I think it's their desire for 'carebear' fodder.  Their argument for inclusive PvP within PvE parameters would seem to prove this.

  JesterDS

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/30/13
Posts: 2

6/27/13 9:45:05 AM#117
One aspect I hate about consensual pvp is gathering and the economy. If you have a gathering person who can go in to end game zones and farm the high end mats with the only obstacle being spawned mobs, the rarity of those items and value decreases. If the person can get ganked the risk/reward may not be worth those items making them hold their value better and be more rare. I am an auction house player and gatherer. When I get to a node to gather and someone has beat me to it, I want to fight them for the material.
  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1027

6/27/13 9:53:19 AM#118

I see three types of PvP:

- none -- there needs to be zones where players are safe, to craft, AFK, chat, whatever

- consensual -- the players agree to PvP

- non-consensual -- the players can "jump" each other

For me, the best model is non-consensual in a zone. In other words, go into this zone and you might get jumped. In DAOC, I used to go PvE in the PvP zones, knowing all the while that I could get jumped. Put valuable stuff in that zone: mats, keeps, etc.

Any game that forces PvP on people who don't want it, is doomed to be a niche game with few players. There is only one popular game with that kind of PvP, all the rest are not.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  apanz3r

Novice Member

Joined: 11/17/11
Posts: 281

6/27/13 10:10:24 AM#119

I think best is non-consensual but with chance to run-away/disengage.

Eve mechanisms like stargate, web, point , bubles make games a huge stall- nobody dares to explore as next 2 gates you will die.

 

EDIT:

now put 20 gates in a system, remove bubles, make points chance based, webs causing damage on both sides , make belts in random position, scanable only and not in overview and yea pvp is fair

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6835

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

6/27/13 10:19:16 AM#120

pvp is ONLY good if there is variety in weapon choice,the map is laid out to support good pvp and both players are READY.

If there is no variety in choice,then it favors the player that suits best to that choice.

if the map is not laid out for pvp,then to be straight forward,it is a joke and nothing else matters anymore.

If both players are not thinking pvp and ready for it,the one who is ready will have a huge advantage.Being that all pvp is a race to get opponents hp down first,getting off two strikes before your opponent decides to fight back is pretty much a guarantee win.

i know there are man y who would cheat or prefer an advantage,i don't consider that good pvp,i like to have it on a even keel,both fighters completely prepared and ready for it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 Search