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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Could Next-Gen Consoles Bring an MMO Renaissance?

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97 posts found
  jesteralways

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 514

6/27/13 12:24:49 AM#41
Originally posted by achesoma
No. It's further dumbing down(if that's even possible) of the genre into instanced killfests. And if full cross platform MMOs ever come to fruition PC players will ROFLstomp facerape consolers.  That's a fact. 

actually it will be console players who will stomp us pc players. why? each and every skill in a game is a command input from controllers(mouse, keyboard or game controllers) through software which are then executed by machine, execution of commands in console is a lot faster than executing commands in computers as computers require hard coded instruction to execute commands, commands must be in accurate form if we want desired output. an example i can give is devil may cry 4 i played in both pc and xbox 360, i used the xbox 360 controller(love the controller :D) for pc to play in pc and xbox 360 had it's own controller, when  i played in xbox 360 it was very easy to execute harder combos and my score was all the time "ssstylish" but in pc same combos were too hard to execute, console are built for fluid gameplay and they don't bother with precise instruction input from controller but computers require precision or the input code is incomplete to execute desired combo. so basically when console mmo players would fight against pcmmo players their fluid controller would allow them to execute skills faster than pc players and you understand the result by now.    

No panties, No Life

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 455

6/27/13 12:41:46 AM#42
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by achesoma
No. It's further dumbing down(if that's even possible) of the genre into instanced killfests. And if full cross platform MMOs ever come to fruition PC players will ROFLstomp facerape consolers.  That's a fact. 

actually it will be console players who will stomp us pc players. why? each and every skill in a game is a command input from controllers(mouse, keyboard or game controllers) through software which are then executed by machine, execution of commands in console is a lot faster than executing commands in computers as computers require hard coded instruction to execute commands, commands must be in accurate form if we want desired output. an example i can give is devil may cry 4 i played in both pc and xbox 360, i used the xbox 360 controller(love the controller :D) for pc to play in pc and xbox 360 had it's own controller, when  i played in xbox 360 it was very easy to execute harder combos and my score was all the time "ssstylish" but in pc same combos were too hard to execute, console are built for fluid gameplay and they don't bother with precise instruction input from controller but computers require precision or the input code is incomplete to execute desired combo. so basically when console mmo players would fight against pcmmo players their fluid controller would allow them to execute skills faster than pc players and you understand the result by now.    

 

Depends on the game if you can aim and turn with your mouse, you can aim and turn much faster and more accurately than you can with a controller.  If there are a lot of abilities someone keybinding will be able to pull those off faster.  If they design the game so that you cannot aim and turn with your mouse or use keybinds it may be an even playing field, but this is exactly the kind of dumbing down of games PC gamers are afraid will happen.

  LordOfPit

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/10
Posts: 77

6/27/13 12:46:48 AM#43

SONY, Microsoft and game developers/publishers will strive to put MMO's on the consoles. Those MMO's however would be free-to-play MMO's most likely as a "feature" of XBL/PSN membership and we can expect many in-game cash stores.... why? Because it worked on the PC and it'll work on consoles too. It's only the next logical step in reinforcing always-on DRM!

It doesn't mean we won't have fun though!
 

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2828

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

6/27/13 12:52:25 AM#44
I feel console given its not a sudden boom of MMos could have a 'small' shift in expanding the population and bringing more to games, though its mostly a numbers game and changes it could bring might not be for our best interest.
  MondoA2J

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 259

"You are mine, I'm yours, and if we die, we die. But first we'll live." Ygritte

6/27/13 12:54:13 AM#45

I will make my answer as short and direct to the point.

No. The MMO genre is headed for disaster IMO. (to clarify that means In my opinion)

I am not a financial expert, stock broker or developer. All of this is based off opinion or talking to others. I am a gamer though and I can see trends changing and the mood of other gamers. In general...dissatisfaction is what I find most.

Nothing is holding peoples attention for long. I don't think this will change by throwing consoles into the mix. I hope I am wrong, I enjoy MMO's and the entire genre. I think we will see MMOs return to a smaller crowd of people. Not like when it first started in EQ/UO days but a shift in numbers for sure.

Either way, no one can deny that the genre and entire market is evolving and I am very excited with a pinch of nervous, to see what happens next.

MMORPG Gamers/Developers need a reality check!

  Hokie

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/04
Posts: 1021

Hey Devs, just so you know. The more you give us to play with, the more we play.

6/27/13 1:33:30 AM#46
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by Hokie

Here is a good example of what Im talking about.

How consoles can just improve MMO's (x sarcasm) By the way, that PC max settings isnt with any of the high-resolution texture packs that can be downloaded added to it. That is vanilla vs vanilla.

If you start compairing some the the hi-rez texture mod add ons the PC is capable of, it just starts looking stupid and faked, simply because an 8 year old console is that bad.

 

But Im sure people are going to argue "Wait thats from an Xbox 360 that was released in Nov of 2005". And that is one of my major points.

You think Microsoft and Sony are going to release a new console every 2-3 years to take advantage of the improvements in CPU's and GPU's? F' no they arent. Expect them to be around for eight or so years. And they arent even at the cutting edge of graphic and CPUs even now....

 

So yeah expect a shared console/PC MMO just to be the best thats ever happened to our genre. Cause it can only be an improvement, right?

 

 

 

I mean feel free to buy high end hardware to play your cartoon mmos, ill be happy playing The Division and Destiny.  I can bet The division would have looked like a cartoon if they decided to make the game for Low and Mid range PCs in mind.  In the end i rather have developers make a game on a specific set of hardware and get the best optimization out of it than come release filled with glitches and bugs that takes 2 or more years of their time to spend your money on and their time like on AoC and Vanguard and eventually having to go free to play instead of making quality content.  And like i said whats the point of those fresh new gpus and cpus every few months when devs dont take advantage of their power and most of all dont know how to fully optimize them.  PS4 has all the great features now like Anti-Aliasing, DX11 and other standard visual features.  The games on it look almost like CGI and im satified with that.

Are you saying this in engine graphics is bad? :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5E8n3jWtBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fNa55oZSsY

Maybe youre not getting my point, or maybe you are and youre just ignoring it. And btw Im not arguing that there souldnt be console MMO's, "In the end i rather have developers make a game on a specific set of hardware and get the best optimization out of it than come release filled with glitches and bugs that takes 2 or more years of their time to spend your money on.."This statement shows that you dont have a clue what Im tallking about  Because that is exactly what would happen (according to you) in a shared funded/developed console/PC MMO. And again Im not arguing in a time frame of months, but years.

 

Lets try it this way-

A console or any motherbord based hardware is damn near out of date when its released. So right now if they made a console/PC MMO the tech specs are close enough you wouldnt see a difference graphics-wise, and maybe processor-wise.

But give it 3 years, give it 5 years, give it 7 years and that console is still going to have the same specs that it had when it released this year. Which means that 5 years from now a share funded console/PC MMO is going to have its graphics, its CPU processing, its memory optimized for console hardware that is 5 (or how ever many) years old. That is a fact that cant be ignored or refuted.

While if it was just a PC only MMO it will be optimized for the current generation of hardware and firmware for whatever year it was made.

 

Pretend all you want, I gave you a clear cut example of the differences for vanilla Skyrim that didnt take advantage of the current hardware we have or mods for that matter. And if you want I go dig up that Crytec Engine example where it was a step forward for a consoles but it was a major step back for the PC.

 

No matter how you want it not to be, or wish it wasnt, a share funded console/PC MMO would mean it would be optimized for the lowest denominator, the console, which means a step back for us PC MMO gamers, in graphics, in UI, in A.I., in quantity of items, in visual quality of items, in animations, in the number of players and NPCs that can be displayed,  in every aspect of the MMO, there is no, and I mean NO advantage that a PC would gain by being optimized for a console. As in zero. Hell, that even goes for funding, cant forget that.

"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3952

6/27/13 2:07:59 AM#47
Originally posted by jbombard

 

Well if you are basing cartoon on WoW then it is really old.  Anything that is cross platform will have better graphics on the PC.  Also for what it costs to buy a next gen console I can plug a new video card in my PC that would blow them away.

 

I'm really excited about The Division too, but it works because it is a realistic shooter.  Being realistic you probably don't have a lot of weird abilities, and abilities are probably for the most part linked to your weapon.  For this type of game it works really well.

Im talking about Wildstar, GW2 and Neverwinter which all can be played with a gamepad btw, ive tried GW2 and Neverwinter using xpadder and Wildstar looks to be using the same limited hotbar system with action combat.  But you dont need a new video card to run most of these games on max settings, and you dont need the new one that comes 6 months after that video card either.  I had GW2 running everything on max with the lowest anti-aliasing with a 9800 GT on a older PC.  WoW is old but it still shows just how many people still run on low end machines and the devs will always cater to them the most because they are where the money at. If the devs made a game specifically for the highest end hardware the games would look like a CGI.

And as i said earlier FFXIV ARR has way more skills than The Division and is a traditional mmorpg and its gamepad works just as well with the keyboard controls.

And honestly I think ESO would have had better graphics if it was made with only PS4 and Xbox One hardware in mind but since its not they had to tone down the graphics for low end and mid range PCs cuz the graphics do not look as good as the single player games, it has slight cartoon look to it not as photo realistic as its other titles.

  Jorendo

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 210

6/27/13 2:14:13 AM#48

Maybe i'm a bit of a pc elitist for saying this but HELL NO!!!! I get really anoyed seeing one genre after another become a console first genre. Many genre's have been utterly destroyed, i mean really completely destroyed to make it console friendly. Console and console gamer friendly even. Remember how Command and Conquer used to be a great RTS game, where you could build single units and with just a simple drag of the mouse and then ctrl +1 you created a group out of them, mixing all kind of units together for your army and then tank rush the enemy. Well that worked great for the pc but publishers figured that the mainstream gamer, who mostly plays on the console is where the big money is. So they decided to make C&C for the consoles too. Now there where old C&C games on the Playstation 1 and N64, they port it just like that. But no...now the games had to be optimized for consoles...so what do you do. To get a sense for a bigger army you poop out groups of units that count as one, you make smaller maps, you make it far to easy cause hey the mainstream gamer needs to feel good about themselves for finishing a game and shouldn't have to work for it cause god forbid you have to redo a mission.

Command and Conquer 4, the one C&C all C&C fans have been boycotting was a direct result of a RTS game made with the first thought about making it a console game. Gone was base building, gone where big armies, gone was everything that made C&C a C&C game (beside the movies). And the ironic part is that C&C4 was never released on the consoles so they kicked the pc gamer who been a massaive C&C fan hard in the balls.

 

Same for supreme commander 2....they made the maps insanely small compared to supreme commander 1, they removed a lot of different units and made many look a like. Just so the console could pull it off.

 

Consoles have their own genre's that work great. But i'm sick and tired to see every game, every genre having to be a console first thing. MMO's on the console? No, its not gonna work. As Hokie said, the console is the weaker machine, it can't keep up with the pc in graphics. This is no elite talk, this is pure facts. A console can't be improved, its not like you can buy a new videocard for your xbox or playstation, you can't buy more memory or a new motherboard. The power of the console is that you just buy your game without having to think about a thing. 

 

Also the MMO genre has suffered a lot from mainstream already. Every game has to look like that one big seller cause publishers who can only think about money really believe that in order to get the same success you have to be the exact same.

 

But hey, one bright side of this all. The xbox had a massive line of MMORPG's aswell for the 360. But in the end only final fantasy 11 came out for it. Age of Conan, Champions online, World of Warcraft, etc. etc. never saw light on the xbox 360 even though announced (though WoW not officially i believe, but there where strong rumors).

 

It's not that i don't want console gamers to enjoy MMO's. But i as pc gamer am just fed up with my genre's going to hell cause they have to be made console friendly. I miss the old tactical shooters cause now they have to be super simple holywood action shooters to please the mainstream console gamer (mainstream console gamer is not every console gamer). And all those damn assists are even ported to the pc...remember the time you actually had to aim on your enemy before shooting? Now you can miss by two meters and still get a freaking headshot, how is that fun?

 

FPS and RTS, two genre's that where seen as pc favored genre's already dumbed down, got destroyed just to make sure the console gamer's needs where saturated first. Don't let the MMO genre become the next please.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3952

6/27/13 2:28:27 AM#49
Originally posted by Hokie

 

No matter how you want it not to be, or wish it wasnt, a share funded console/PC MMO would mean it would be optimized for the lowest denominator, the console, which means a step back for us PC MMO gamers, in graphics, in UI, in A.I., in quantity of items, in visual quality of items, in animations, in the number of players and NPCs that can be displayed,  in every aspect of the MMO, there is no, and I mean NO advantage that a PC would gain by being optimized for a console. As in zero. Hell, that even goes for funding, cant forget that.

FFXIV ARR proved that entire statement wrong it has better visual quality and animations/particle effects everything than GW2, Wildstar, AoC, Lotro, Neverwinter, WoW and i could go on.  As a matter of fact people have been complaining that it has too much particle effects and wants the devs to tone it down.  The games animations makes all those PC exclusive mmos a joke.  The zones and how many players and items are just as big and open as any of those other mmos.  Its combat and UI is as traditional as WoW and lotro.  And most of all the neither the gamepad or keyboard controls were dumbed down for the other. I even showed you that with the youtube videos and explained that the gamepad can use up to 32 skills with its cross-hotbar system for gamepad and I showed that the PC UI and controls are exactly the same as any other PC only mmo.  And its one of the most polished mmos i have played.

Preview of some of the skills animations http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2RghB8r4tA

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 455

6/27/13 2:31:49 AM#50
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by jbombard

 

Well if you are basing cartoon on WoW then it is really old.  Anything that is cross platform will have better graphics on the PC.  Also for what it costs to buy a next gen console I can plug a new video card in my PC that would blow them away.

 

I'm really excited about The Division too, but it works because it is a realistic shooter.  Being realistic you probably don't have a lot of weird abilities, and abilities are probably for the most part linked to your weapon.  For this type of game it works really well.

Im talking about Wildstar, GW2 and Neverwinter which all can be played with a gamepad btw, ive tried GW2 and Neverwinter using xpadder and Wildstar looks to be using the same limited hotbar system with action combat.  But you dont need a new video card to run most of these games on max settings, and you dont need the new one that comes 6 months after that video card either.  I had GW2 running everything on max with the lowest anti-aliasing with a 9800 GT on a older PC.  WoW is old but it still shows just how many people still run on low end machines and the devs will always cater to them the most because they are where the money at. If the devs made a game specifically for the highest end hardware the games would look like a CGI.

And as i said earlier FFXIV ARR has way more skills than The Division and is a traditional mmorpg and its gamepad works just as well with the keyboard controls.

And honestly I think ESO would have had better graphics if it was made with only PS4 and Xbox One hardware in mind but since its not they had to tone down the graphics for low end and mid range PCs cuz the graphics do not look as good as the single player games, it has slight cartoon look to it not as photo realistic as its other titles.

 

Wildstar looks to be the bomb, and I am super excited to try it out.  Haven't tried GW2.  Neverwinter controls felt super clunky on the PC so bad that I actually did play it with a controller because the control system is really really suck for keyboard and mouse.

As far as graphics go you are correct on some points but the console resolution is something even low end PCs can handle so they aren't having to make many sacrifices for PC if anything it is the other way around.  If you want to run higher resolution you can only do that on the PC, and tweak it to run exactly how you want.  On the console you generally don't get that many settings to control how it looks, which to be fair are also not generally needed until you are doing things like 40 man raids with tons of effects going off at the same time.  How these things play on the next gen consoles when packed with players remains to be seen.

 

Really I don't think the number of skills is super important as long as the game is fun, and the interface is intuitive.  

 

Also pretty much any cross platform game generally looks great on 1 platform, and the others not so much to varying degrees.  I haven't seen many games though that look worse on the PC, you do however get games that have dumbed down console UIs that are ported to PC but they still end up looking better.  Of course if they concentrate on one platform that platform will look awesome, I think that goes without saying but if they made ESO PC only it would likely have better graphics(on the high end) than it every could on the consoles, because consoles have more limitations than the PC.

 

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3952

6/27/13 2:43:49 AM#51
Originally posted by jbombard

Wildstar looks to be the bomb, and I am super excited to try it out.

I like Wildstar too and I think that game could work on PS3/PS4 too if they really wanted to and not dumb down anything for either UIs and controls.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1700

6/27/13 2:52:16 AM#52
No. Unless they adopt keyboard and mouse as standard.
  Squeak69

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 959

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

6/27/13 3:00:50 AM#53

I would not like a MMO on consule, for a few reasons.

1. I fill a MMO that bases it controls on a controlers and not mouse and keyboard is being limited in its number of controls available.

2. both of the new consoles will require a monthly fee just for the privalge to use online service, so you will have to pay for the console online service, the games monthly sub, ( unless its F2P which means it gimp if you don't fork over even more cash) so basicly your paying twice for onthly service of one game no matter how you look at it.

3. consoles have a fixed system setting, and as such improvements made to the MMO will always have to be withen the parameters of the console it will never be able to evolve at all. which I know for the newer generation of MMO players dousnt mean much cause yall jump from MMO to new MMO like happy rabbits, but it is a concern for older MMO players who like to make a home in a MMO.

4. the current market for MMOs is based around the F2P era, ( even if I hate it ) and sorry but consule pllayers are used pure B2P style games and would get annoyed at being given games that had elements left out on purpose to make you pay more money for them, don't beleave me look at the capcon VS marvel game that came out recently ( imight be rembering the exact game wrong I don't have a console)

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 455

6/27/13 3:12:00 AM#54
Originally posted by Squeak69

I would not like a MMO on consule, for a few reasons.

1. I fill a MMO that bases it controls on a controlers and not mouse and keyboard is being limited in its number of controls available.

2. both of the new consoles will require a monthly fee just for the privalge to use online service, so you will have to pay for the console online service, the games monthly sub, ( unless its F2P which means it gimp if you don't fork over even more cash) so basicly your paying twice for onthly service of one game no matter how you look at it.

3. consoles have a fixed system setting, and as such improvements made to the MMO will always have to be withen the parameters of the console it will never be able to evolve at all. which I know for the newer generation of MMO players dousnt mean much cause yall jump from MMO to new MMO like happy rabbits, but it is a concern for older MMO players who like to make a home in a MMO.

4. the current market for MMOs is based around the F2P era, ( even if I hate it ) and sorry but consule pllayers are used pure B2P style games and would get annoyed at being given games that had elements left out on purpose to make you pay more money for them, don't beleave me look at the capcon VS marvel game that came out recently ( imight be rembering the exact game wrong I don't have a console)

 

Well for 2., pretty much every game on consoles today are B2P games with an item shop.  Nothing new here.  In fact console gamers are far more used to having to pay for things like new outfits than PC gamers are.   So if they do require a sub and still try that item store shit then I won't be playing.  But if it is standard B2P with item shop it will depend on how much fun the game is without purchasing anything.

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1169

6/27/13 3:15:27 AM#55
Who knows, maybe with FFXV's success the next FF MMO won't be a bland sack feces.
  jmcdermottuk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 771

6/27/13 3:33:39 AM#56

The sad truth is that MMO's will move to consoles and there's little to be done to stop it. The dev studios know where the money is and you can bet they want their share of that market.

 

Unfortunately for us it means the genre is going to change. The subtle complexity of past MMO's will be lost as the devs make them console compatible, the social element will be reduced due to controller constraints (just look at defiance for proof of that) and the genre will no longer be true MMO's but mere multiplayer RPG's with a few extra people able to connect.

 

I think the genre is in a very dangerous place right now and ultimately I think it's going to move to console and be lost. Maybe if we're lucky we'll get a few hold-outs who refuse to dumb down their ideas enough to fit on a console and we'll keep half a dozen "proper" MMO's. I can only hope so.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5154

6/27/13 3:37:52 AM#57

It is interesting that Michael and I presume other gaming journalists have noticed that AAA MMO's have really suffered in the last couple of years. But being in the industry he is over optimistic. I have been talking about this for a few months, things are not well in MMO land for P2P titles, let alone AAA.

Two facts - GW2 is the only P2P (as a B2P) MMO that has been a huge success since the period of the dark ages he talks about. Defiance is the only P2P MMO that has launched this year, only one and we are nearly in July.

Things do not look good for AAA releases. Michael points out himself the danger of MMOs going console, dumbing down. Let me tell him some history, MMO's already got a dumbing down in the 00's to conform to console players expectations. MMOs were made into solo games to attract the console player base. In the solo games market we saw this as well, PC games have become handcuffed to the design principles of console games. So it is not like we have not seen this before.

MMOs going console can only mean one thing, more dumbing down. The MMO genre is in dire straits, I am not sure that the games that start to come out after MMOs go console will even be worthy of the MMO name. Not yet, but once MMO's are established on consoles, once that is the norm. Then the name 'MMO' will become nothing more than a label applied to a game to bring in more players to the cash shop.

  Xarko

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 375

6/27/13 5:38:48 AM#58

I dont think so, Tim.

Just look what happened to other games which were PC only titles and then went on concoles too. It clear what is going to happen and others have mentioned it above.

 
  tordurbar

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/02/10
Posts: 394

6/27/13 6:11:49 AM#59
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

I'm sure the Next-Gen consoles will result in HUGE growth for MMO's

 

Sadly, they will do nothing for "classic" MMORPG's, which seem to be an endangered species currently... 

 

Modern MMO's are very different from their counterparts of 10-15 years ago. They are almost indistinguishable from online co-op games, and continually seem to be moving closer to that genre. They are ever more casual, action-oriented, instanced and phased with pseudo-grouping that allows players all the benefits of being in a group without actually formally joining other players. As long as you are near some other people...

Sadly I agree. If there is an "explosion" it will not be in true MMOs it will be in MMOFPS and MMO action shooters - at least in the West. Asia still produces MMOs but more and more they are going the "action combat" route.

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 4839

6/27/13 7:39:54 AM#60
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by keithian
I agree with everything this article wrote including the dream that they could all play together.

Always will be just a dream, because keyboard/mouse > controller.  MOAR buttons FTW.

This is no longer true.

As all the new MMO´s seem to go for the more "action" oriented combat with limited ability set and different ways of RPG progression, instead of having 6 full action bars of skills, from which in practice you only use a portion off.

The console controllers have become much better too.

In fact, I play Skyrim with my XBOX 360 controller and love it! It works really well.

 
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