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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What Makes Console MMO's "Dumbed Down"? (And other questions)

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  khameleon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/07
Posts: 372

GAMER 4 LIFE = YOUNG 4 LIFE

6/26/13 4:57:39 PM#21
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by syntax42
Originally posted by khameleon

I don't see a huge disadvantage for a console player anymore. An old PC is worse as you will see less in the distance, suffer low framerates in combat, etc.

This statement doesn't make much sense.  You are comparing an old PC to a new console.  It would be like telling someone to try playing Halo on their N64.  Everyone accepts the fact that they have to buy new hardware as the years go by.  Holding on to that old PC is like holding on to your original XBOX.

 

To answer the OP's question, I think the controller is the issue.  Most games which require real-time button presses are designed so you can press the buttons fast, not press a combination of buttons to perform one action.  If you make a game require complex button combinations, like holding down a different trigger then pressing a button, there is a good chance a majority of the console gamers will criticize the game into failure.

Well me, personally, I never use keys 7-0 on my keyboard when I play.  I always hotkey 1-6 and shift 1-6 and usually q and e - shift q-e,  then I'll move to alt instead of shift... so holding right trigger or left trigger is second nature for me as I'm used to hitting shift or alt anyways.

 

But I just don't want to believe that button combinations are all that would create the stigma of console games  being "dumber" then PC games.  Or forcing them to be more casual, or forcing them to have less content.  What about these features causes everyone to say the game is "dumbed down"?  Is it less fun?  Do the games have less features?

Only people that say its dumbed down and all that are elitist people that feel the need to say the platform they play on is the best one. That's pretty much the answer to this thread.

I play on PC more than anything, but can also see how consoles are now as powerful as a mid/high-end PC and can handle all of the content any PC can.

The controller can use macros, hold a trigger and you have double the buttons, hold the other trigger and it triples them. Any console gamer can easily do that and very fast too(same as holding shift on PC) so there would be no limitations or disadvantage in an MMORPG. If its action combat, a controller is actually probably better  for moving out of the way and strafing and all that.

GAME TIL YOU DIE!!!!

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

6/26/13 5:03:44 PM#22
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by maskedweasel

As the title says, a few simple answers are requested.  Why are Console MMO's considered to be "dumbed down" in comparison to the "superior" PC MMO?

 

After you answer that,  answer me this - Will there ever be a time Console MMO's would be considered on par or greater than what PC MMOs can offer?  If not, why not,  if so,  how?

 

And lastly,  Will there ever be a time that Mobile MMOs (MMO's for mobile devices) will take center stage the way Console MMO's have started to recently?

Many MMO's aren't even bothering with the complexity of the players character development. In older games like Anarchy Online for example the customization was amazing. It seems as though they're taking out the need for the customer to think.

You act like the developers are taking these things out despite what the majority of customers want.  It's the other way around.  Most players don't want that kind of complexity and since the majority of players pay their bills and salaries, the developers are responding to the wishes of their "bosses".  Just because you don't fall into that category doesn't mean most people don't.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6509

"I fight so you don't have to."

6/26/13 5:10:20 PM#23

They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

Think there was a poll floating around saying that average age of PC gamers were mid to late twenties and console gamers mid to late teens. 

  syntax42

Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1139

6/26/13 5:12:07 PM#24
Originally posted by khameleon
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by syntax42
Originally posted by khameleon

I don't see a huge disadvantage for a console player anymore. An old PC is worse as you will see less in the distance, suffer low framerates in combat, etc.

This statement doesn't make much sense.  You are comparing an old PC to a new console.  It would be like telling someone to try playing Halo on their N64.  Everyone accepts the fact that they have to buy new hardware as the years go by.  Holding on to that old PC is like holding on to your original XBOX.

 

To answer the OP's question, I think the controller is the issue.  Most games which require real-time button presses are designed so you can press the buttons fast, not press a combination of buttons to perform one action.  If you make a game require complex button combinations, like holding down a different trigger then pressing a button, there is a good chance a majority of the console gamers will criticize the game into failure.

Well me, personally, I never use keys 7-0 on my keyboard when I play.  I always hotkey 1-6 and shift 1-6 and usually q and e - shift q-e,  then I'll move to alt instead of shift... so holding right trigger or left trigger is second nature for me as I'm used to hitting shift or alt anyways.

 

But I just don't want to believe that button combinations are all that would create the stigma of console games  being "dumber" then PC games.  Or forcing them to be more casual, or forcing them to have less content.  What about these features causes everyone to say the game is "dumbed down"?  Is it less fun?  Do the games have less features?

Only people that say its dumbed down and all that are elitist people that feel the need to say the platform they play on is the best one. That's pretty much the answer to this thread.

I play on PC more than anything, but can also see how consoles are now as powerful as a mid/high-end PC and can handle all of the content any PC can.

The controller can use macros, hold a trigger and you have double the buttons, hold the other trigger and it triples them. Any console gamer can easily do that and very fast too(same as holding shift on PC) so there would be no limitations or disadvantage in an MMORPG. If its action combat, a controller is actually probably better  for moving out of the way and strafing and all that.

My point wasn't that the controllers aren't capable of the button-combinations required.  It is that the majority of people who play console games won't tolerate that kind of complexity.  Sure, there are plenty of gamers on consoles who would, but think about the composition of the console audience.  With so many children and teenagers, games with a learning-curve are rarely tolerated.  They just want games they can pick up and have fun with.  

How many gamers does that leave left who would really play games with complex controls?  The elite button-mashers?  Dedicated fans?  That market is likely to be very small, and I would be surprised if it is bigger than the PC MMO market.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4806

6/26/13 5:14:22 PM#25
Originally posted by Yamota

They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

 

A dumb teen grows up to be a dumb adult.

An ignorant and inexperienced teen may one day grow up to be an educated and experienced adult. There is a large difference between someone that is dumb and someone that just doesn't know something

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6509

"I fight so you don't have to."

6/26/13 5:17:59 PM#26
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Yamota

They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

 

A dumb teen grows up to be a dumb adult.

An ignorant and inexperienced teen may one day grow up to be an educated and experienced adult. There is a large difference between someone that is dumb and someone that just doesn't know something

Not sure what your point is. Are you arguing that an adult, in general, is not smarter than a teen, in general? Really?

  AG-Vuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/04
Posts: 818

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Oh, I see it's too late to help you.

6/26/13 5:31:49 PM#27
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Yamota

They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

 

A dumb teen grows up to be a dumb adult.

An ignorant and inexperienced teen may one day grow up to be an educated and experienced adult. There is a large difference between someone that is dumb and someone that just doesn't know something

My 18 y/o console playing son , told me recently that he prefers PC gaming to consoles. He never played PC's before this year. He finds PC games ( MMO's ) more complex and interesting as well as challenging, as well FPS. He seems to believe they speed of the game is better on PC as compared to Xbox 360.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5543

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/26/13 5:43:40 PM#28
Anyone who thinks a remote is better the more buttons it has, is a moron. Same thing for complexity in games. Nothing says a console MMO cannot compete with a PC one and because all consoles are based on PC hardware anyway, any issues would be merely user interface-related or with the manufacturers those consoles (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo).

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5543

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/26/13 5:47:11 PM#29
Originally posted by Yamota

They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

Think there was a poll floating around saying that average age of PC gamers were mid to late twenties and console gamers mid to late teens. 

Now there's a troll bait if I ever saw one.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4806

6/26/13 6:30:24 PM#30
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Yamota

They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

 

A dumb teen grows up to be a dumb adult.

An ignorant and inexperienced teen may one day grow up to be an educated and experienced adult. There is a large difference between someone that is dumb and someone that just doesn't know something

Not sure what your point is. Are you arguing that an adult, in general, is not smarter than a teen, in general? Really?

I guess you'd actually have to know what the difference between a smart person and an educated person was, before I could argue that with you.

Intelligence has nothing to do with age. A dumb person is dumb because they're incapable of becoming less ignorant.  If that still doesn't help explain why I quoted your post and said what I said... I don't really need to say anything else.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  AG-Vuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/04
Posts: 818

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Oh, I see it's too late to help you.

6/26/13 7:01:12 PM#31
Originally posted by Quirhid
Anyone who thinks a remote is better the more buttons it has, is a moron. Same thing for complexity in games. Nothing says a console MMO cannot compete with a PC one and because all consoles are based on PC hardware anyway, any issues would be merely user interface-related or with the manufacturers those consoles (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo).

Really ? Have you tried to play KA-50 Black Shark ? Think that could be adapted to console ?

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5543

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/27/13 2:57:19 AM#32
Originally posted by AG-Vuk
Originally posted by Quirhid
Anyone who thinks a remote is better the more buttons it has, is a moron. Same thing for complexity in games. Nothing says a console MMO cannot compete with a PC one and because all consoles are based on PC hardware anyway, any issues would be merely user interface-related or with the manufacturers those consoles (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo).

Really ? Have you tried to play KA-50 Black Shark ? Think that could be adapted to console ?

Why the hell not?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/27/13 4:07:43 AM#33

What console MMOs are even being discussed? My only experience with one was DCUO.  I wasn't too excited by it, although watching a few endgame boss videos it seems like endgame boss mechanic are pretty decent.

DCUO's main failing seemed like they reduced the number of powers per character without increasing the depth and dynamicism of those powers.  Basically you want to aim for skills a bit more like League of Legends skills, where their correct use (including timing, positioning, aiming, and other factors) actually matters a lot regarding the effectiveness of the ability.

That lack of depth wasn't really related to being on console though.  There are deep and shallow console games, just like PC games.  If DCUO was a shallow MMORPG, being released PC-only wouldn't have changed that.

A good example of dynamic abilities from LOL is Blitzcrank, a robot who can launch his hand towards an enemy, and if it hits he drags them back to his location:

  • Normally (in an open field), landing the ability will drag them 925 units of distance out of position.
  • If you time a Flash after launching the grab, and aim it backwards, you can pull them even further (1325 units).
  • Or if you pull them across a wall, they're going to have a lot more than 1325 units to travel to get back into position.

That depth is achieved with one fairly simple mechanic.

The problem with "dumbed down" comments is they usually take things at face value.  It's a player making a false assumption that a simple rule means a shallow game.  But that's silly because Chess' rules fit on one piece of paper, and the players making these false assumptions certainly haven't explored all of Chess' game depth.  Simple rules sometimes create shallow games, but not always.

The opposite situation also exists. Complex rules often lead to false assumptions that a game is deep.  But most of the time, complex rules result in an imbalanced game, which results in a shallower game.

You do need a certain baseline complexity to achieve a certain amount of game depth, however many of the factors don't have to appear complex to players.  The Blitz grab has a fire speed, a range, a projectile width, and a pull speed, and these all factor into the overall depth of using the ability, but describing the ability (describing "the rule") to someone is super simple.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2993

I actually still like MMORPGs

6/27/13 4:21:20 AM#34
Because a lot of PC gamers are elitist asshats who think anyone playing a console game is an idiot. I joke about the PC gamer master race, but some people actually believe it. They feel console gamers are beneath them, and anything dumbed down must have been done for them.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2993

I actually still like MMORPGs

6/27/13 4:29:26 AM#35
Originally posted by Yamota

They are considered dumbed down because console games cater to teens which are naturally dumber, with shorter attention span, than adults, which is the target audience of PC games.

Think there was a poll floating around saying that average age of PC gamers were mid to late twenties and console gamers mid to late teens. 

Really? I don't know about you, but I swear I was better at video games when I was a kid lol. Now it's harder to figure out for me, I don't feel like sitting around figuring out a game for 8 hours I have a job! And kids growing up now with so much technology, it's amazing how quick they are to learn.

 

That's not to say I don't still enjoy a more complex game. But when I was a kid/teenager I had a lot more time/patience for learning a new and complicated game. I played NexusTK and Meridian 59 when I was like 13.

  tommygunzII

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 322

6/27/13 5:17:22 AM#36

Seems like a veiled keyboard vs gamepad question, in that case for MMO's only

 

I don't mind using mouse and keyboard when I have to but gamepads have a few advantages. Going from walk to run without hitting a button is nice. Being able to play in more than one position is the main reason for me. You can lay back, lean forward, or even walk around while playing. With a keyboard you are forced to sit in the same position all of the time. My PS3 controller needs no batteries either.

 

Games like FFXI and FFXIV have brilliant configurations for managing hundreds of macros on the fly with the gamepad. FFXI had 120 assignments per page, with 10 pages total. Designed to be navigated very quickly with the gamepad. With that system I could play any MMO as efficient and easy if not easier than kb users. I would love to see more PC MMO developers support gamepads. 

 

That's the only real difference I see between PC's and next gen consoles for MMO gaming. In 10 years alot if not most AAA MMO's will be on consoles anyway in my opinion. Like others have said, consoles recognize usb mouse and keyboard devices. If you want to keep it real.

 

Edit: In FFXI users are given 20 Books with 10 macro palettes each. Each palette consists of 2 rows of 10 macros each.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Macro

4000 easy to navigate macros are more than anyone needs.

 

  exwin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/07
Posts: 224

6/27/13 5:33:04 AM#37

It's not so much that there can't be a full, rich, console mmo, it is just that the offerings thus far are marathons of button mashing. Until they make a deep one, that is going to be the perception.

Dumbed down for consoles isn't the right way to say it. I think it would be closer to accurate to say streamlined for console's limited ability for user input. 

Fallout and Elder Scrolls recent offerings didn't feel shallow or dumbed down for the console. It's possible, it (making full rich mmos for a console) just hasn't been done yet, and until they make one on the level and scope that pc users have come to expect, pc user prejudice against console mmos will continue.

  Smoey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/05
Posts: 551

6/27/13 5:39:06 AM#38
You can have up to 28 'keys' or 'buttons' on a controller if done correctly. That's more than enough for an MMO. Plus just attach a keyboard via USB.

(\ /) ?
( . .)
c('')('')

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3342

6/27/13 5:49:50 AM#39

my2 cents..

 

     I think many consider consoles dumbed down cause you are unable to customize huge macro "I WIN" buttons.. In my opinion I liked EQ's original layout of 8? memorized spells for hot keying.. I dislike all these games now that have 2, 3 and more rows of hotkeys for immediate use.. Want to make combat more challenging? Easy, limit the number of immediate use functions.. If that means you have to sit and memorize that spell into a slot, so be it..  I wouldn't mind seeing console games going that same direction.. Sure they can have 30 abilities by max level, but make it so that only a limited number of them can be usable at any given time.. I always disliked the lazy macro win button, and wish that ability never existed..

  deveilblad

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/13
Posts: 151

6/27/13 6:02:40 AM#40
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by maskedweasel

I hear some saying controls are the issue, but a controller is essentially a handheld keyboard and mouse with less keys that would require more combinations.

 

Bypass that comment if you don't like it, and instead,  answer,  how many skills should a player have access to in any single game?  How many skills and skill combinations are required so that the game isn't considered being dumbed down?

 

As for Macros, I used to do macros in CoH and SWG and a few other games,  but, for SWG I used a recursive macro much of the time which allowed me to AFK, and while it did take more brainpower to do that, it definitely didn't make me feel like the gameplay was any "smarter".  It almost made me feel like I was tricking the game.

 

Would adding the ability to Macro in a Console MMO change the Console MMO reputation?

 Your controller is like your keyboard? How'd you fit all ~101-102 buttons onto a hand held device?

Go look at FFXIV's interface. You can bind something like 120+ skills to your controller and they are easy to use its a simple matter of muscle memory to know what to press to activate them... Just like on a keyboard.

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