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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Triple-A sandbox with open-world, non-consensual PVP: If you build it, they will come. And stay.

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373 posts found
  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 869

6/24/13 12:13:27 PM#321

A game can have open pvp without making it desirable, easy, or with little risk to gank people.

 

If they opt to go for some open world pvp I'm sure they can find a way to do it to add freedom to the game without making it desirable for darkfall like squads of people to troll people off the servers.

I'm open to the idea if it's done in a way that makes the game more interesting.  

 

Hell I played on many MUDs prior to Ultima Online's release that had full open world pvp at all times, and you could take everyone's stuff if you wanted.    I didn't go around just killing people for no reason and neither did 99.9% of the other players.   When one did, they were pounced on.   The game didn't make it desirable for you to engage in that behavior.

  Ecoces

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 802

6/26/13 5:08:59 AM#322

consensual PVP is the way to to go, you give people incentives to flip the PVP flag on not force those them, thats just going to drive people away like its done with every FFA PVP MMORPG ever made. Maybe along with Smeds "faction" tweet this gives us more insight on their PVP system.

 

Faction are super important, give people incentive to join specific factions and be "overt" like SWG did way back in the day. give them special missions against the opposing factions with special perks for completing these quests even "bases" or keeps that have to be defended from opposing factions every X amount of hours (if i remember correctly you had to defend a base you placed every 36 hours or something)

 

LIKE SWG DID.

 

the funny thing is SWG WAS built from the ground up with PVP in mind, it  had a great PVP system that was a complete opt in system.

 

 

  exwin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/07
Posts: 224

6/26/13 5:35:43 AM#323
Great, make PvP servers and PvE servers and everyone is happy. Problem solved.
  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1567

6/26/13 5:37:40 AM#324
Originally posted by exwin
Great, make PvP servers and PvE servers and everyone is happy. Problem solved.

Yup, not hard to do.

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  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12311

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

6/26/13 6:01:16 AM#325
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Fendel84M

I'd be happy with FFA PvP if there was some way to guarantee every player on my server was a roleplayer. But in fact I am more likely to kill ganked just because I am roleplaying.

I'm sorry, it breaks my immersion when a random Holy Paladin just ganks me out of no where because he felt like it and then tea bags me.

If a really good RPer was trying to play a Highwayman or something and tried to rob me. I would fight him regardless of whether the game mechanics actually forced me to or not. But keeping away the in game trolls is plenty enough reason to not have FFA PvP.

Don't forget that it costs nothing to create a new account because this game will be F2P.  So ban someone for being a jerk and they laugh and make five more or ten or twenty.  /shrug

People keep using that argument, but there's nothing to support it being a reality beyond a possible rare occurrence. I mean, if that was regularly happening, we'd have hundreds of free to play games and their forums to link to with examples of this. One would think that either gamers would have stopped playing free to play games by now or the devs would have come up with a solution for this problem.

So, is it possible this problem you suggest is possible, but in reality not all that probable?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Naowut

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 657

6/26/13 6:02:45 AM#326
Everything is more fun when its not consensual.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12311

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

6/26/13 6:05:50 AM#327
Originally posted by Naowut
Everything is more fun when its not consensual.

 

 

Aaaaaaand now it's a party.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Squeak69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 966

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

6/26/13 6:06:35 AM#328
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Fendel84M

I'd be happy with FFA PvP if there was some way to guarantee every player on my server was a roleplayer. But in fact I am more likely to kill ganked just because I am roleplaying.

I'm sorry, it breaks my immersion when a random Holy Paladin just ganks me out of no where because he felt like it and then tea bags me.

If a really good RPer was trying to play a Highwayman or something and tried to rob me. I would fight him regardless of whether the game mechanics actually forced me to or not. But keeping away the in game trolls is plenty enough reason to not have FFA PvP.

Don't forget that it costs nothing to create a new account because this game will be F2P.  So ban someone for being a jerk and they laugh and make five more or ten or twenty.  /shrug

People keep using that argument, but there's nothing to support it being a reality beyond a possible rare occurrence. I mean, if that was regularly happening, we'd have hundreds of free to play games and their forums to link to with examples of this. One would think that either gamers would have stopped playing free to play games by now or the devs would have come up with a solution for this problem.

So, is it possible this problem you suggest is possible, but in reality not all that probable?

 

errr what are you talking about this is in fact a issue in several F2P MMOs, and has been stated on forums before.

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  Squeak69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 966

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

6/26/13 6:08:18 AM#329
while it may be consensual PvP, are all NPCs killable, because I rember on PvE WoW server people would go around and camp contacts so people couldt do their missions.

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  Whiplash931

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/06
Posts: 36

6/26/13 6:33:00 AM#330
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

If the PvP is Non-consensual, no they will not stay.

Most MMO gamers dont like PvP that is on someone elses terms.

These type of people need to grow a backbone and learn how to PvP. Thats the whole point of PvP is making the other person fight on your terms.

  gatheris

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/09/06
Posts: 984

6/26/13 6:41:40 AM#331
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

If the PvP is Non-consensual, no they will not stay.

Most MMO gamers dont like PvP that is on someone elses terms.

20 million Chinese gamers have stayed with Wushu. 

 

Make a High Fantasy sandbox for the West in the same vain as Wushu, it will grow year after year. They will stay.

only because getting ganked has little to no consequences to the player getting ganked - period

full loot as so many think they want will create a typical empty server

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12311

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

6/26/13 6:44:46 AM#332
Originally posted by Squeak69
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Fendel84M

I'd be happy with FFA PvP if there was some way to guarantee every player on my server was a roleplayer. But in fact I am more likely to kill ganked just because I am roleplaying.

I'm sorry, it breaks my immersion when a random Holy Paladin just ganks me out of no where because he felt like it and then tea bags me.

If a really good RPer was trying to play a Highwayman or something and tried to rob me. I would fight him regardless of whether the game mechanics actually forced me to or not. But keeping away the in game trolls is plenty enough reason to not have FFA PvP.

Don't forget that it costs nothing to create a new account because this game will be F2P.  So ban someone for being a jerk and they laugh and make five more or ten or twenty.  /shrug

People keep using that argument, but there's nothing to support it being a reality beyond a possible rare occurrence. I mean, if that was regularly happening, we'd have hundreds of free to play games and their forums to link to with examples of this. One would think that either gamers would have stopped playing free to play games by now or the devs would have come up with a solution for this problem.

So, is it possible this problem you suggest is possible, but in reality not all that probable?

errr what are you talking about this is in fact a issue in several F2P MMOs, and has been stated on forums before.

errr I didn't say it wasn't, just that it's rare. Now, if you have data or links that suggests otherwise then errr share it?

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

6/26/13 6:47:18 AM#333
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by William12
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by William12

Non-consensual PVP is not going to happen on all servers.  It's just realistic people the market is too small.  If you want to invest millions into a new game, trash your best IP, and betray everyone of the players who stuck with EQ for 14 years make a open world forced PVP game you think people were pissed about the NGE.

 

There will obviously be PVP and PVP will be important to the game but expecting a darkfall EQ you're setting yourself up to be let down.   I like to PVP, but I don't like to be forced into it every time I log in.

People who say the market is too small, really do not have anything to back that statement up. For one, what's too small? I mean if you are talking bigger potential player base the better, the World of Warcraft clone has a far larger potential player base than any other type of MMORPG on the market and we see how that has worked out for so many games. We also see how the scrapping of the first two iterations of EQN and the development of a sandbox EQN shows that SOE is not developing EQN for the largest potential player base.

 

How do you figure ?  People don't want a wow clone they have plenty .   People are sick of wow even people playing wow are just waiting for that next game that does something new.

New and different does not = open world PVP that is not new its not different several dozen games have it or have tried it and failed.  

All of the speculation EQN will be an open world PVP game are unfounded and based of one quote that everyone has a different meaning to.   

You better believe smed is going for a bigger crowd here he doesn't want another game with 200k players he already has a few of them.

The irony of this conversation is that people on this forum will argue that the PVP market is too small, but then in another thread call for things like corpse runs, experience loss, mob grind, item camping, and long leveling times as if there is some magical large market for that.

Maybe a small group(me included) dont mind timesink and corpse run experience loss mob grind item camping or long lvling, but there is no large market for this, thats fact.

There is also only very small group of hardcore players that will play hardcore games involving fulloot or even permadeath, and don't mind gankers or pkers they deal with that problem themsellfs but thats a very small group.

Darkfall uw have safezones becouse majority are not realy hardcore.

DayZ and i play on hardcore server start with nothing daily people loging and cry why someone shot them WTF why they even bother buying arma 2 and downloaded DayZ mod.

Its the ignorant majority who blindly buy games that seems to be popular for short well just before or during launch and then find out its harsh game and massively start crying to change the game.

Darkfall and so many have suffer this carebear virus:(

  LuckyR

Novice Member

Joined: 8/09/03
Posts: 265

I game because I WANT to
I work because I HAVE to

6/26/13 7:37:15 AM#334

If SOE has levels and I am sure they will since they always have, the rules from EQ1 were great.

There was an 8 level range in which you could PVP, 4 levels below you, and 4 levels above you. Instead of Full Loot they had it so you lost all your coin you had on you, all crap in your inventory (not bags) plus 1 item from your gear!

As a Dark Elf Necro I spent a lot of my younger life in Crushbone, me and some friends would sit up in the tower and leave our pets below on the bridge, as DE we were welcomed there, but the other races were no welcomed. When we would see a group near the bridge pets would be sent in for the attack and it would have awesome to see the look on their faces like WTF?

There are many ways to do PVP but for me (my opinion) I do not want to work to get things just to lose everything because of a gank squad! I also do not see this jail system working, if I had to spend 5 hours of game time sitting in jail and not being able to play, no matter what I did to get there, I would quit the game. Why pay for something you cannot play because some jumped in front of my fireball and made me the bad guy even if I never intended to attack another player. As for getting captured after too many PKs and going on trial and being perma-deathed, this I would like more than jail time, it would definitely keep you on your toes, and make the game interesting.

As for EQ2 Naggy was the most populated server for the longest time, it only went down hill when SOE changed it around.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3469

6/26/13 7:44:19 AM#335
Being married changes how you game. My wife wont play a game where she has to be worried about getting her butt kicked while she is picking flowers. I am sure a open world FFA PvP game done well could get a nice player base. Linage II is still doing very well but EQN is not the game for that.
  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1012

6/26/13 7:45:32 AM#336

How many top-rated popular games out there are FFA PvP? -- One

How many top-rated popular games are NOT FFA PvP -- all the rest

Might be a lesson in there.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  st3v3b0

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 127

6/26/13 7:48:01 AM#337

Wholeheartedly disagree with the OP.  PvP in itself cannot carry a game.  EVE is a piss poor example of a successful game because I am most definitely certain that SOE wants a larger audience than < 100K subscribers (most of which are multiple account holders).  For EQ Next to dominate it needs to be focused on PvE with elements of PvP.

Just my 2 cents worth.

  Stromm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 250

6/26/13 7:52:03 AM#338
Originally posted by Bidwood

I think everyone is missing the point of the PVE vs PVP argument. The point is, SOE is a business and will do whatever it can to make maximum profit. This includes implementing changes that go against the mainstream paradigm even at the risk of alienating their existing fanbase. Because if they build something truly amazing, innovative and sustainable, new players will come in droves and they will stay.


Why take the risk? Smedley explained that the devs put tonnes of money into developing expansions that players burn through at an alarming rate. And when they're done with that content, they move on to the other 1000 clone games on the market, never quite finding the one that's "just right". They don't come back until SOE spends another chunk of their fortune developing more content. Clearly, there is a goldmine to be had in a game where the players keep playing and spending between expansions. That's Smedley's theory, and he mentions EVE as an example of a sandbox that gets players totally invested in creating their own content and conflict to keep things interesting. By the way: Smedley implies it's non-consensual, open-world PVP (i.e. Hulkageddon) that keeps EVE interesting.

Some people on the forum are saying SOE won't go this route because "EverQuest has never been about PVP" and they will lose a big chunk of the existing fanbase. SOE just doesn't care because there is a way bigger return on investment in making something different from the games they made in the past. And judging by the impressions of editors from MMORPG.COM and TenTonHammer, this game is likely a triple-A blockbuster that will retain fans for a long time.

One final point...  although some people claim the fanbase is categorically against this change, I disagree. ice-vortex did a poll where about half of the 300+ respondents said they would still play even if this game is open-world, non-consensual PVP. Holy cow! People are ready for change.

So yeah. If SOE builds it, they will come. And they'll stay.

Delusional fanatic. Can't take you seriously when you froth at the mouth like a Baptist preacher.

  Darwa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/04/04
Posts: 2156

6/26/13 7:52:48 AM#339
Originally posted by Bidwood

By the way: Smedley implies it's non-consensual, open-world PVP (i.e. Hulkageddon) that keeps EVE interesting.

I read a few pages of replies and was amazed that nobody picked up on the fact that this is quite a leap in assumption from what was said.

Anyway, the bulk of Western gamers (especially EQ players) don't go in for PvP, let alone mandatory PvP, so I just can't see it happening. 

Even SOE aren't that blind to the market.

  LuckyR

Novice Member

Joined: 8/09/03
Posts: 265

I game because I WANT to
I work because I HAVE to

6/26/13 7:53:04 AM#340
Originally posted by olepi

How many top-rated popular games out there are FFA PvP? -- One

How many top-rated popular games are NOT FFA PvP -- all the rest

Might be a lesson in there.

Top rated FFA PvP yes, but still only has 45K -60K players. SOE would go broke going FFA PvP

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