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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » How many of you will get this on PS4 instead of PC or both?

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177 posts found
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3360

6/24/13 3:12:42 PM#121
Originally posted by Gishgeron
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Have you played a MMO on a console before, other then a FPS? If you did how long did you play it? Reason I ask is I have. Console MMOs have to dumb down the game so they dont trip over the complexity of what you can do on a PC with a mouse and keyboard, mods, add ons, gaming keyboards and mice and the like. When a MMO first gets laughed on a new console all is good and right with the world, till a few years pass and the MMO quickly becomes outdated because its hampered because the console tech has fallen far behind PC tech. So now your MMO quickly becomes dated and the updated are scaled to outdated tech. Now new MMOs coming out have a huge advantage and your console MMO quickly loses players and you are left with a very small core of players who love the game and struggle to make it work. Less players paying to support the game means you start getting less and less content updates so now things fall apart and even your core of players who loves the game shrinks. I have been there and it sucks. 

 

  I've played a few different ones.  EQUO (PS2) and Phantasy Star Online (dreamcast) to begin with.  Now, PSO wasn't especially an MMO as it was a multiplayer lobby but since we are all on a site which regards GW1 to be an MMO I'm certain we can make an allowance for PSO since it came out WAY ahead of its time on a system that should have been defining consoles and their direction instead of being forgot.

  I'm going to address different parts of your post independently.  Lets start with the "dumbing down".  That's just not true.  EQUO didn't feel dumbed down at all.  IN fact you could have 15 or so skills mapped (maybe more...its been a very long time since I played that) at a given time and, with very little practice, be able to navigate them quickly.  If anything it took MORE thought and consideration.  Mapping a keyboard is actually stupid easy.  It mostly doesn't even matter where you stick things, all keys are pretty easy access.  When setting up your skills bar (and its associated pages that you navigated with triggers) you had to think about how you were going to rotate your skill use so that as you cleared on page you were ready to cycle to the next.  If anything that game was HARDER and MORE complex than most MMO's today, though I must digress that this is likely because of the direction MMO gaming has gone in since WoW.  The game does not HAVE to be dumbed down, it DOES have to be built around a controller and use creative and interesting ways to broaden what that input can do.

  If you want to discuss the many ways you can do that and actually enhance the game, I would love to do that in a brainstorming thread or message.  By all means, if you want to pick brains on THIS matter...feel free I promise I won't be hostile and we might have a few good ideals about it.

  Next, lets discuss player bases and populations.

  The premier reason you DON'T see more people (its not because they don't exist, look at daily players on COD) is that the barrier for entry is a little stupid.  On Xbox 360 you would have to buy the game, then pay for live, then pay the monthly fee, then disconnect the monthly fee if you are tired of it.  There is no trial period, and no way to test the waters.  All MMO games suffer from player bleed, they just infuse the game with more players constantly.  Xpacks, updates, events, ect...all serve to heighten interest.  The best way for a console to handle this is to go F2P.  F2P is a perfect thing for consoles.  Most console games have tons of DLC these days anyway, so the monetization wouldn't be something loathed.  Using Microsoft as the middle man (or sony or whoever) makes it better because people are more likely to dump cash into those companies than some random MMO team that might have had security issues. 

  In short, people are 100% more likely to spend small amounts of money in that system than on PC.  So long as it is not abusive...it would be successful.  Being F2P removes all barriers for entry.  Focusing on constant streams of small content updates keeps interest high, and easily supports the F2P model.  All of these will ensure a pretty solid 50-100K concurrent users at a given time if the game is GOOD.  There are ways to make a good game on consoles...considering ALL of the largest selling games are there. 

  Next, lets talk tech.

  I'm gonna be a little hostile here...you really don't pay attention to where the world is heading right now.  Very soon, the first server farms are gonna fire up to begin what I call "the great test".  See, right now hardware matters because your end user equipment is doing all the processing for the game and handling it.  These farms are going to do that for you...all your end needs to do is process streaming video.  Now, the REAL issue facing this is that input has to travel ALL THE WAY to that farm, and the video ALL THE WAY back.  Better internet connections are going to have to happen...services like Google fiber are going to need to become the norm.  Also, there will need to be farms set up all over the place to make them local to more areas and prevent lag.  All of this hinges on "ifs" but I feel its going to happen.  Its literally the only way to advance gaming any further without shutting consumers out.  This could easily be the last console generation if this takes off.  IN fact...PC hardware might see its last generation as well...since this applies to them as well.  The minute you can play any game using only hardware good enough to stream video...its open season for all users, rich and poor, to flood the market.  No longer will massively expensive hardware be holding back a large chunk of the market, and no longer will developers have to hold themselves back from using more advanced features because of it.

  In short, tech is soon never going to matter again.  Ever.  Watch and see.

Red: The second you design the game around the controller you have dumbed it down for the PC gamers. This is outside what you can do in a game. I will give an eg. You are melee and a caster starts to blast you with fire spells. So you hit tab to switch targets, click your charge skill and at the same time you open your last bag and click the fire resist pot in your bag and by the time you do your charge skill has you at the mage and you click the macro that stuns the guy and at the same time yells "NEED A HEAL" Because the mage has you 1/2 health. Do that with a controller? No! 

If not you better not put console and PC gamers on the same server as the PC gamer has an edge. Or remove the fire resist pots and remove the mecros etc and now its fair for both and dumbed down. EDIT: but this also makes people who use gaming mice and keyboards kings as they can still make macros =-)

Yellow: I agree 100% F2P can do a lot for console MMOs but that does not stop the fact they normally get less players and because the updates are not as good for the console as the PC you lose more players.

Pink: Ya I know about them, Im a IT guy but we are a long way off to having the world on fiber. Even a metro city like I live in... all the building need to be redone before they can support it. We are a long way off. 

Like I said in a post a few pages back. When consoles dont need to dumb things down and tech really does not stand in the way of updates being as good for the PC... Im all for playing a MMO on a console but we are far from that.

  st3v3b0

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 124

6/24/13 3:15:34 PM#122
I really hope it does not come to consoles.  That only means that will have to dumb down the PC version to make it console friendly as I doubt they will make a completely separate game just to have it on both platforms.
  jonrd463

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/09
Posts: 608

6/24/13 3:20:25 PM#123

Let's not forget expansions and upgrades.

On a PC, new things can be added to the existing game to take advantage of constantly evolving tech. I hate to bring WoW up in an EQN thread, but purely as an example, you couldn't pull off stuff from Cataclysm on the same computers that were top of the line in 2004 when WoW first came out without serious performance issues, if the hardware was even able to support it at all.

A console is feature-locked on release, so whatever expansions/additions are made will have to be able to work on the console first, assuming PC and console players share the same game space. That means that it doesn't matter if you're using a revolutionary new graphics card a year after the PS4 is released, expansion content will only be as good as the PS4 can run.

"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

6/24/13 3:28:22 PM#124

I honestly hope EQNext is a cross-platform game on PC and PS4 just so that I can feed of the collective angst of the PC-elite crowd and grow stronger and more devious in my maniacal, twisted powers.

The collective cries of terror and outrage on these forums will be delicious, life sustaining happy juice.

OP has a point, Sony.. SOE... lots of other MMOs going to PS4, the smiley face response, PS2 and DCUO already confirmed... PS4 EQN is happening folks.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  jdnyc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/12
Posts: 1729

6/24/13 3:29:53 PM#125
Originally posted by BadSpock

I honestly hope EQNext is a cross-platform game on PC and PS4 just so that I can feed of the collective angst of the PC-elite crowd and grow stronger and more devious in my maniacal, twisted powers.

lol nice one spock.  you got me on this. +1

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3360

6/24/13 3:34:44 PM#126
Originally posted by BadSpock

I honestly hope EQNext is a cross-platform game on PC and PS4 just so that I can feed of the collective angst of the PC-elite crowd and grow stronger and more devious in my maniacal, twisted powers.

The collective cries of terror and outrage on these forums will be delicious, life sustaining happy juice.

OP has a point, Sony.. SOE... lots of other MMOs going to PS4, the smiley face response, PS2 and DCUO already confirmed... PS4 EQN is happening folks.

If your are right get ready for 1 of 2 things. 1. A dumbed down bad PC game like DCU. Played it and the UI alone makes me hate it as its so clearly designed for a controller. Or 2. A bad console game as it will not come close to reflecting the PC game and as the years roll by they will need to keep up to the PC tech or fall short of newer MMOs coming out just so console gamers dont feel cheated. 

Unless they have come up with a new way to do things =-) If they have found a way to cross that line no one else has pulled off, I would love to see it.

  emistz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/11
Posts: 50

6/24/13 3:35:16 PM#127

Nah, PC is the way to go.  If you gotta upgrade spend your money wisely and build something that will last you 3 or 4 years.  Consoles shouldn't even be around anymore, PCs are so much better.

People need to man up and join the PC revolution.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3360

6/24/13 3:40:55 PM#128

I am sure the next round of tech the console will make a bigger jump up and maybe even match the common every day PC out today. But within 2-4 years the PC again will be way above what consoles are, why? You cant do much to upgrade a console and they need to have a life of 5-8 years to make the money back on them. I think Xbox is about 7 years old now. Can you see modern WoW scaled to fit that console? Ewwww.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

6/24/13 3:52:36 PM#129

Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?

Since PS4 can do this:

and this:

and this:

and this:

How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?

The period of rapidly advancing graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3360

6/24/13 4:00:00 PM#130
Originally posted by BadSpock

Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?

Since PS4 can do this:

How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?

The period of rapidly advanced graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?

Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not. 

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

6/24/13 4:08:24 PM#131
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by BadSpock

Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?

Since PS4 can do this:

How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?

The period of rapidly advanced graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?

Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not. 

Consoles get the same updates to performance via firmware and optimization changes as PC graphics cards do. Anyone can easily see the difference between early console generation releases and end of generation releases. So not "fixed in time."

As much as improved hardware over time on PC? Of course not.

But the difference this time around will likely be smaller and smaller as the "edge" of what is physically possible using these materials is quickly being reached.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  jonrd463

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/09
Posts: 608

6/24/13 4:12:21 PM#132
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by BadSpock

Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?

Since PS4 can do this:

How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?

The period of rapidly advanced graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?

Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not. 

Bingo. It's not how much better it can look as much as how much more can be displayed while maintaining a high quality. Those PS4 shots do look good, credit where it's due, but they're limited to the 2 or three detailed figures in the scene. Evolving PC power will mean a dozen or more figures on the screen, each with all the normal mapping, subscattered surface rendering, and other graphical whizbangery higher ram and higher resolution can achieve.

 

Also, 1080p may look good when watching the Superbowl, but that's a downgrade from what a computer can do.

"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  Mawnee

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 182

6/24/13 4:17:54 PM#133
I'll be playing EQNext at 5760x1080. Console cant do that.
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3360

6/24/13 4:18:18 PM#134
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by BadSpock

Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?

Since PS4 can do this:

How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?

The period of rapidly advanced graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?

Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not. 

Consoles get the same updates to performance via firmware and optimization changes as PC graphics cards do. Anyone can easily see the difference between early console generation releases and end of generation releases. So not "fixed in time."

As much as improved hardware over time on PC? Of course not.

But the difference this time around will likely be smaller and smaller as the "edge" of what is physically possible using these materials is quickly being reached.

Firmware updates mean nothing when hardware is stuck where it is. As for your comment in red, thats just a lack of vision. Heat is the biggest problem for pushing tech faster and harder. What if PCs moved towards better cooling systems in the next few years. Motherboards that could house 2-4 CPUs. Think of a PC with 2 to 4, 6 core CPUs running it. Things are getting cheaper to make so it could happen. Or video cards being made that run in parallel as standard. Or PC tech linked in with server farms. I could go on and on. If I thought them up as just an average IT guy, I am sure someone is working on it.

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

6/24/13 4:30:57 PM#135
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Red: The second you design the game around the controller you have dumbed it down for the PC gamers. This is outside what you can do in a game. I will give an eg. You are melee and a caster starts to blast you with fire spells. So you hit tab to switch targets, click your charge skill and at the same time you open your last bag and click the fire resist pot in your bag and by the time you do your charge skill has you at the mage and you click the macro that stuns the guy and at the same time yells "NEED A HEAL" Because the mage has you 1/2 health. Do that with a controller? No! 

If not you better not put console and PC gamers on the same server as the PC gamer has an edge. Or remove the fire resist pots and remove the mecros etc and now its fair for both and dumbed down. EDIT: but this also makes people who use gaming mice and keyboards kings as they can still make macros =-)

Yellow: I agree 100% F2P can do a lot for console MMOs but that does not stop the fact they normally get less players and because the updates are not as good for the console as the PC you lose more players.

Pink: Ya I know about them, Im a IT guy but we are a long way off to having the world on fiber. Even a metro city like I live in... all the building need to be redone before they can support it. We are a long way off. 

Like I said in a post a few pages back. When consoles dont need to dumb things down and tech really does not stand in the way of updates being as good for the PC... Im all for playing a MMO on a console but we are far from that.

 

  First, sorry to anyone trying to follow this as I keep deleting old quotes.  I hate the quote tower, I'd rather keep my posts recent and relevant to points made.

  To address your red section.

  Lets begin by saying you are describing a series of actions 1% of players might even consider, let alone use.  I've played tons of PC MMO's and the average user is not coming anywhere near that in terms of pushing inputs to their limits.  That doesn't detract from your point, so lets actually discuss THAT.  You can, absolutely, do any of those things with a controller.  It requires the same amount of keybinding control you get in most PC games.  You could shift targets with a bumper button, use charge with a letter button, have your res pots hotkeyed to a D-Pad along with a self made message that is set to play once you reach 50%.  DA:O allowed for something pretty similar in its NPC controls...you could set certain actions to health and mana level triggers.  Quite literally, its not that hard to program a game that allows you to do a /group Need heal! once health reaches 60% or less.

  This is what I mean about designing a game with intelligent systems.  Give your players tools.  Deep, meaningful tools.  Then consider how you can tie using them to a controller.  Its really not that hard to do.  Most games simply do not do it, because you'd have to spend as much time on UI and inputs as you do on the game.  PC game developers ALREADY do this, because of just how much can be done with a keyboard.  Its a failing of the console market itself that our inputs aren't often considered as deeply.  Take COD, for example.  Something as simple as changing the R3 stick button from knife to crouch wasn't even considered for a long time.  Better still would be ACTUAL control over your keybinds.  Then being able to macro non-combat actions to them.  Like a radio call complete with radar ping to alert your team anytime you, say, toss a grenade. 

  I didn't delve too deeply into what options ARE available for consoles and their inputs.  I don't feel thats as important yet as simply getting you to see that you should reconsider how deep you think that well actually is.  Stop looking at the industry and seeing what they hand you, and think about what COULD be done. 

  Yellow

  I figured you'd probably see eye to eye with me on that point.  I do see what you are saying about players, but I think you're looking at things globally and not locally.  Yes, there are way more users on PC across the world for most MMO games.  But that also ignores the fact that many cultures refuse to own an xbox to begin with.  And that Sony really botched last gen.  You don't really need millions of players to make a game successful.  You need to craft your game and budget around getting a larger number of regular users from a smaller pool. 

  You see, most F2P games (we'll focus on these since its the clear choice for consoles) monetize their games around the ideal that they will have 5 millions players try it and only 50K buying.  Its why price points are so high..its hard to get someone interested in giving them money.  There are lots of reason for that, but one reason certainly is that people are leery about using their services to make the transaction.  People aren't afraid at all to use the live or psn markets to buy things...it happens constantly.  Just check out how many sales COD got for its personalization packs (skins for guns).  Tons of sales.  For something stupid.  Its not that people are against spending money.  Most will.  Its that they need for it to be quick and easy and through someone they trust.

  So it will be VERY easy to get a larger portion of your user base to spend money on a F2P console MMO.  In fact, they could use a system like Wizard 101 to really push interest.  Lets use WoW as a content template everyone understands.  Say you get vanilla wow free.  Then you can choose to pay 5 bucks for levels 51-55 and half of BC content.  5 again for the other half.  So forth and so forth.  Maybe 1$ for extra bank slots.  5$ for access to each new class added.  They could even just sell new dungeons for a dollar each.  Such a focused and small format would work well.  People throw $1 at indie games all the time.  A single dungeon isn't a ton of work.  If you had even 500K players, thats a good chunk of money coming in steadily.  All your team has to do is keep making small additions to the game.  If the foundation of that game is solid, it will sell like hot cakes at a lower price point.  Its easier to get those numbers when your market is willing to throw money away.  PC gamers just aren't.  You really have to pull massive player numbers in to make those sales on a PC. 

  Not so for a console.

 

  Purple

 

  Yes, things are going to have to change in a big way for the server farm thing to catch on.  But I do think it will.  For a variety of reasons.  None of them are console or PC gaming. 

  Mobile gaming will lead this change.

  Right now, the only thing holding that market back is the fact that you can't make powerful hardware small enough for a phone.  They've done some amazing things...but a gaming PC they aren't.  Local storage also makes it hard.  BUT, if all the storage is handled on the server and all it needs is input from your phone..well....

  A phone can do all the gaming WE can.  A market that is, by and far, MUCH larger than all of our personal markets combined.  They all love those casual games..but that is mostly a barrier to entry thing.  Suppose a company pulls off a gamefly thing, wherein you pay a small monthly fee and get 100% access and play of all games in their library?  Knowing you can pay 20$ a month and access AOC from your phone anywhere you get wireless?  Then shift over to Darksiders?  No local storage needed, just pick a game and play. 

  I feel that this sort of entity will smash records when it finally comes around.  The moment it does, and people realize what the demand really is...you'll see a great push to upgrade.  Google fiber type tech will surge as new companies try to get a piece of that cash cow.  It doesn't take 10 years either...its a change that would take less than 2 once a market becomes realized. 

  NagilumSadow

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/26/12
Posts: 242

6/24/13 4:49:44 PM#136

PC, of course... what else? Why do consoles even exist today?

 

I simply wanted to say assuming its true that they're using the ForgeLight engine, the planetside 2 engine, everquest next should be grand. As a matter of fact, a big part of the reason I continue planetside 2 is the ForgeLight engine, its truly awesome. That's coming from a person who's never truly met a game engine he's liked.


http://wyrdgaming.blogspot.com/

  jdnyc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/12
Posts: 1729

6/24/13 5:08:26 PM#137
A console is a computer with a different OS.  It's not a toaster.
  Electro057

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/09
Posts: 537

6/24/13 5:32:28 PM#138
Originally posted by jdnyc
A console is a computer with a different OS.  It's not a toaster.

Unless you had one of the first 360s, then when it overheated it probably could have been a toaster.

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  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 554

6/24/13 5:44:02 PM#139
The game will look great on the PS4. Apparently Planetside 2 will be running on the equivalent of "ultra" settings on the PC version. If you think that's going to hold EQN back...  I don't even know what to say to you.
  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

6/24/13 6:02:32 PM#140
Originally posted by jonrd463
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not. 

Bingo. It's not how much better it can look as much as how much more can be displayed while maintaining a high quality. Those PS4 shots do look good, credit where it's due, but they're limited to the 2 or three detailed figures in the scene. Evolving PC power will mean a dozen or more figures on the screen, each with all the normal mapping, subscattered surface rendering, and other graphical whizbangery higher ram and higher resolution can achieve.

Also, 1080p may look good when watching the Superbowl, but that's a downgrade from what a computer can do.

Ummm what?

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
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