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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Triple-A sandbox with open-world, non-consensual PVP: If you build it, they will come. And stay.

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373 posts found
  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  6/22/13 11:09:54 AM#41
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Originally posted by Bidwood

Ugh. People, the "50% said they would still play" was a comment about the EXISTING fanbase, which I argue SOE doesn't really need anyway. The argument is that they can rake in fabulous riches from new markets, but that the EXISTING fanbase is not totally against the idea either.

 

 

As was previously mentioned, a poll that comprised 50% of 300 people does not a game creating strategy make.  You keep mentioning this poll as if it were gospel proof of this happening, you're putting your expectations way way up, I suggest you temper it lest you be dissapointed.

This goes for every game out there, unless you have HARD PROOF of something about a game, it's all vapor and you should take it all with a grain of salt.  Especially where Smed is concerned.

Are you trolling me or do you just not understand what I'm saying?

 

  Gurpslord

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/22/09
Posts: 372

You can't be a hero hiding underneath your bed.

6/22/13 11:11:46 AM#42
Originally posted by Kuanshu
Originally posted by Bidwood

I think everyone is missing the point of the PVE vs PVP argument. The point is, SOE is a business and will do whatever it can to make maximum profit. This includes implementing changes that go against the mainstream paradigm even at the risk of alienating their existing fanbase. Because if they build something truly amazing, innovative and sustainable, new players will come in droves and they will stay.


Why take the risk? Smedley explained that the devs put tonnes of money into developing expansions that players burn through at an alarming rate. And when they're done with that content, they move on to the other 1000 clone games on the market, never quite finding the one that's "just right". They don't come back until SOE spends another chunk of their fortune developing more content. Clearly, there is a goldmine to be had in a game where the players keep playing and spending between expansions. That's Smedley's theory, and he mentions EVE as an example of a sandbox that gets players totally invested in creating their own content and conflict to keep things interesting. By the way: Smedley implies it's non-consensual, open-world PVP (i.e. Hulkageddon) that keeps EVE interesting.

Some people on the forum are saying SOE won't go this route because "EverQuest has never been about PVP" and they will lose a big chunk of the existing fanbase. SOE just doesn't care because there is a way bigger return on investment in making something different from the games they made in the past. And judging by the impressions of editors from MMORPG.COM and TenTonHammer, this game is likely a triple-A blockbuster that will retain fans for a long time.

One final point...  although some people claim the fanbase is categorically against this change, I disagree. ice-vortex did a poll where about half of the 300+ respondents said they would still play even if this game is open-world, non-consensual PVP. Holy cow! People are ready for change.

So yeah. If SOE builds it, they will come. And they'll stay.

I find it amusing when I view a post that states if it is open world non consensual PvP they won't play the game....haha riiight!

Oh wait they want easy mode where you can go out and kill without recourse; senseless, mindless MOBs with highly predictible AI...been there, done that, done with that!

There are plenty of MMORPGs to choose from these days...SOE is a big company and they can afford to make this game however they like and not just to cater to carebears

Simply said im lookin for a real challenge, not a mindless timesink

 

 

Look for it all you want, EXPECTING it to be this title, in particular at this point and based off of a few tweets is just foolish.  I'm not saying the game won't be this way, I'm simply saying odds aren't with it being so and there's no confirmation or anything saying otherwise.  Temper your expectations.

  gylnne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/07
Posts: 324

6/22/13 11:15:10 AM#43
Originally posted by azzamasin

Nice premise but it is entirely false for one reason.  Non-consensual PvP is perhaps the smallest niche market in the MMO genre and is highly doubtful SOE would commit to this style of game with such a limited return on investment.

 

 

Agree.

LOL why anyone with any knowledge of the MMO playing field and it's history would believe people would stay for non-consensual pvp is beyond me.

 

 

 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7245

6/22/13 11:15:58 AM#44
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by bcbully

 

This just will not work, nor can happen in a sandbox world. You would be making two completely different games.

 

Why wouldnt they go this route? FFA does not mean gankfest.

 

Harshly punish murder, reward killing for a purpose. The player needs the choice.  

 

Sure your free to be an asshat, but I'm free to bounty your ass (i would just kill you) and put you in jail for 5 hours, and black list you. RISK, REWARD. 

Going back a number of years I remember a few discussions here about the whole risk/reward idea. I put forward the idea that prison time for crime is a good idea. I even wrote several lengthy pieces about the system I would love to see involving me as a player having the tools, should I choose, to build a jail, choose which laws to enforce and building support mechanics using the tools to protect my lands. So I could tick the box that says killing another person was a crime, I could assign a penalty of 10 hours per murder and I could build a jail and guard towers and hire local guards to protect my land. The risk was killing another player meant 10 hours real time sitting in a jail if you got caught.

I didn't get a single post in support.

Times may have changed but the main problem I see with FFA PvP games is that, the very vocal types want the freedom to kill other players but are not willing to put up with a risk reward system that isn't heavily in their favour.

I would love it if games with FFA PvP had serious risk/reward systems but to be honest, I have a long standing opinion of the vocal advocates of FFA PvP are too selfish to really accept any kind of balance. They want a field full of sheep but run away when you try and introduce some sheep dogs and a shepherd. 

Well Snail games stole your idea, kinda. You can't build jails, but you can bounty, and when caught by player constables (or if he kills enough constables the bounty will go away until the next day) that person is sent to jail for a time depending on the amount of the bounty, up to 5 hours where that person must remain logged in. This is why you hear nothing about ganking in Wushu, a FFA pvp game.

 

5 hours in jail will F up your day. I'm not saying clone this system, but ffs if the developer puts thought into their on original system it will work.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  DocBrody

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1479

6/22/13 11:16:21 AM#45
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

They won't stay, nor will anyone join those type of games. 

PVP players are a niche, and non-consensual PVP is an even smaller niche.

While I agree that Darkfall wasn't a success, I would say its failing were more due to management, quality and design choices than to the type of game they wanted to make.

 

 stop bringing up Darkfall.

cheap low budget titles don´t count.

Bring up one major developer big budget sandbox like EQN with non consensual PvP, then we´ll talk again.

I can already taste the sweet sweet tears of the PvE-only players, when the game hits 10 million players.

"I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

  Telondariel

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/10
Posts: 882

6/22/13 11:16:48 AM#46
Originally posted by Bidwood

Ugh. People, the "50% said they would still play" was a comment about the EXISTING fanbase, which I argue SOE doesn't really need anyway. The argument is that they can rake in fabulous riches from new markets, but that the EXISTING fanbase is not totally against the idea either.

 

 

What a foolish statement.  I think you should stay far, far away from the business world.

 

SOE has a terrible marketing plan for EQ.  They've received criticism for years on their utter inability of getting their product known by anyone other than the existing fanbase.  People know Blizzard's products.  How many people, when you've mentioned EverQuest, said, "Oh yeah!  I've heard a lot about that!" ?  Hmm, maybe almost no one?

 

The only thing SOE has going for it right now, for EQN, is word of mouth from the existing fanbase.  SOE limits their information outlets to Twitter and Facebook, and the official game sites themselves.  All of which aren't capturing a new audience.  Now, sites like this give the occasional expose, but interviews are very weak as a source of marketing, let alone capturing more customers.

 

So, saying that SOE doesn't really need the existing fanbase is ludicrous and tantamount to MMO suicide.

  LacedOpium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/12
Posts: 469

6/22/13 11:17:49 AM#47
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Originally posted by LacedOpium
Originally posted by Telondariel
Originally posted by Bidwood

I think everyone is missing the point of the PVE vs PVP argument. The point is, SOE is a business and will do whatever it can to make maximum profit. This includes implementing changes that go against the mainstream paradigm even at the risk of alienating their existing fanbase. Because if they build something truly amazing, innovative and sustainable, new players will come in droves and they will stay.


Why take the risk? Smedley explained that the devs put tonnes of money into developing expansions that players burn through at an alarming rate. And when they're done with that content, they move on to the other 1000 clone games on the market, never quite finding the one that's "just right". They don't come back until SOE spends another chunk of their fortune developing more content. Clearly, there is a goldmine to be had in a game where the players keep playing and spending between expansions. That's Smedley's theory, and he mentions EVE as an example of a sandbox that gets players totally invested in creating their own content and conflict to keep things interesting. By the way: Smedley implies it's non-consensual, open-world PVP (i.e. Hulkageddon) that keeps EVE interesting.

Some people on the forum are saying SOE won't go this route because "EverQuest has never been about PVP" and they will lose a big chunk of the existing fanbase. SOE just doesn't care because there is a way bigger return on investment in making something different from the games they made in the past. And judging by the impressions of editors from MMORPG.COM and TenTonHammer, this game is likely a triple-A blockbuster that will retain fans for a long time.

One final point...  although some people claim the fanbase is categorically against this change, I disagree. ice-vortex did a poll where about half of the 300+ respondents said they would still play even if this game is open-world, non-consensual PVP. Holy cow! People are ready for change.

So yeah. If SOE builds it, they will come. And they'll stay.

I highlighted some of your post for emphasis.

 

Be careful about hanging onto anything Smedley says.  He likes to troll Twitter to see how the public reacts.  Additionally, he is all about spin and hype, just like his buddy Dave.  Only, Dave has found himself in the position of countering Smed's outlandish comments for damage control (eg. the "we love permadeath" comment).  Maybe you are new to how Smed runs things, and how he manages PR, but he's a loose cannon in some regards and more interested in his ego than the actual playerbase.

 

Trying to forecast what SOE will do, what they like, and what they are against is futile.  You aren't SOE.  Making statements on their part is wishful thinking at best, and presumptuous at most.

 

FInal note:  The poll.  So, 150 people said they'd like open-world PvP, eh?  That's a pretty insignificant sample, and in no way indicates people are ready for anything.

 

I think you mean well, but your hype is not allowing you to see anything aside from generous interpretations of questionable info and meager data. 

Why is everyone ripping into Smed?

All he did was respond "I agree wholeheartedly," to a tweet by a fan stating, "A sandbox game needs conflict to drive the economy, which means open-world PvP and risk/reward."  

I see nothing wrong with that response.  All he is doing is agreeing to open world PvP but there is nothing there stating that it would be "non-consensual."

I fully expect it, and I am excited, that the option to open world PvP will be available to those who want to partake in it.  However, there will always be the ability for a player to opt out of PvP if one chooses to do so.

People just need to relax. 

Well, we rip into Smed because he's a master at what he does, spin and hype and at this point veteran gamers who've gone thru his tilt-a-whirl of vocal chicanry are frankly used to distrusting every single word that comes out of his mouth.

HOWEVER

You are right that he didn't ever in any aspect of any reality claim that the game was going to do one thing or another from that response, he just stated that he as a person agreed.  He didn't say EQ Next agreed and was going to go that route, unfortunately that's not how people read it, they say OMG SMED SAID!!!!  So here we are.

I am perfectly aware of how Smed and his team operate.  They play the good cop bad cop routine in order to generate hype, with Smed fulfilling the bad cop role.  He says one thing, it is controversial in nature causing it to spread like wild fire because everyone is up in arms, and then the good cop intervenes and makes everyone relax and feel better.  The result is a greater awareness, following, and eventual buildup for the game.  Its genius if you ask me.  I understand some of us can't take the rise in blood pressure but we just need to breathe and relax.  SOE is in this to maximize profit.  That is all the proof anyone needs to know that it will not be non-consensual PvP.

Prettying-up wrong by dressing it up as opinion does not negate the fact that it is still wrong.

  Gurpslord

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/22/09
Posts: 372

You can't be a hero hiding underneath your bed.

6/22/13 11:18:14 AM#48
Originally posted by Bidwood
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Originally posted by Bidwood

Ugh. People, the "50% said they would still play" was a comment about the EXISTING fanbase, which I argue SOE doesn't really need anyway. The argument is that they can rake in fabulous riches from new markets, but that the EXISTING fanbase is not totally against the idea either.

 

 

As was previously mentioned, a poll that comprised 50% of 300 people does not a game creating strategy make.  You keep mentioning this poll as if it were gospel proof of this happening, you're putting your expectations way way up, I suggest you temper it lest you be dissapointed.

This goes for every game out there, unless you have HARD PROOF of something about a game, it's all vapor and you should take it all with a grain of salt.  Especially where Smed is concerned.

Are you trolling me or do you just not understand what I'm saying?

 

I'm not trolling you and maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say.  I think I do, however.  If you'll take a moment to look at SOE history, about every game they've spun out.  SOE is not a company that does new and innovative and they're not typically the company shooting for a niche crowd either.

Now my interpretation is just as much speculation as anyone elses.  Do I think fabulous riches are to be made by catering to the ultra niche crowd of hardcore PVP, no.  Then again I'm not a developer, I don't get paid to or have any interest in trying to dig out the data that says one way or the other.

I can only go with what their history as a company tells me thus far, that's not to say it can't change.  As for building up an argument over a few tweets from Smedley, that's just folly. 

Ultimately, if what you're trying to say is that there's a vast and untapped market of hardcore pvp gamers than I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you.  I do believe that there definitely are gamers who want that, but I don't agree for an instant that there's enough of them for a company like SOE to try to target.  Smaller company, smaller franchise maybe, but not SOE, and not EQ.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7245

6/22/13 11:18:32 AM#49
Originally posted by DocBrody
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

They won't stay, nor will anyone join those type of games. 

PVP players are a niche, and non-consensual PVP is an even smaller niche.

While I agree that Darkfall wasn't a success, I would say its failing were more due to management, quality and design choices than to the type of game they wanted to make.

 

 stop bringing up Darkfall.

cheap low budget titles don´t count.

Bring up one major developer big budget sandbox like EQN with non consensual PvP, then we´ll talk again.

I can already taste the sweet sweet tears of the PvE-only players, when the game hits 10 million players.

"I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

This is one of the reasons I have not played DF, I know proper punishment/reward systems are not in place. If they were there would be no need for safe zones. 

 

Developers need to go further that just saying "FFA!"

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:19:53 AM#50
Originally posted by Bidwood

One final point...  although some people claim the fanbase is categorically against this change, I disagree. ice-vortex did a poll where about half of the 300+ respondents said they would still play even if this game is open-world, non-consensual PVP. Holy cow! People are ready for change.
 

150 people on a forum known for idolising commercial failures like DFUW. Yeah seems like good statistics.

More like 'if you build it, it will fail'. Which is what it will do if you impose unwanted PvP on the masses.

  Gurpslord

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/22/09
Posts: 372

You can't be a hero hiding underneath your bed.

6/22/13 11:21:44 AM#51
Originally posted by DocBrody
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

They won't stay, nor will anyone join those type of games. 

PVP players are a niche, and non-consensual PVP is an even smaller niche.

While I agree that Darkfall wasn't a success, I would say its failing were more due to management, quality and design choices than to the type of game they wanted to make.

 

 stop bringing up Darkfall.

cheap low budget titles don´t count.

Bring up one major developer big budget sandbox like EQN with non consensual PvP, then we´ll talk again.

I can already taste the sweet sweet tears of the PvE-only players, when the game hits 10 million players.

"I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

I admire your optimism.

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:22:48 AM#52
Originally posted by Gurpslord

Ultimately, if what you're trying to say is that there's a vast and untapped market of hardcore pvp gamers than I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you.  I do believe that there definitely are gamers who want that, but I don't agree for an instant that there's enough of them for a company like SOE to try to target.  Smaller company, smaller franchise maybe, but not SOE, and not EQ.

 

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. If you force players into PvP everywhere, it just won't sit well, because the players who want FFA PvP are not the majority by any stretch of the imagination. If they have specific areas for the open world conflict, that are optional to participate in, then yeah, it might work.

  Kuanshu

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

6/22/13 11:27:51 AM#53
Originally posted by Gurpslord
Originally posted by Kuanshu
Originally posted by Bidwood

I think everyone is missing the point of the PVE vs PVP argument. The point is, SOE is a business and will do whatever it can to make maximum profit. This includes implementing changes that go against the mainstream paradigm even at the risk of alienating their existing fanbase. Because if they build something truly amazing, innovative and sustainable, new players will come in droves and they will stay.


Why take the risk? Smedley explained that the devs put tonnes of money into developing expansions that players burn through at an alarming rate. And when they're done with that content, they move on to the other 1000 clone games on the market, never quite finding the one that's "just right". They don't come back until SOE spends another chunk of their fortune developing more content. Clearly, there is a goldmine to be had in a game where the players keep playing and spending between expansions. That's Smedley's theory, and he mentions EVE as an example of a sandbox that gets players totally invested in creating their own content and conflict to keep things interesting. By the way: Smedley implies it's non-consensual, open-world PVP (i.e. Hulkageddon) that keeps EVE interesting.

Some people on the forum are saying SOE won't go this route because "EverQuest has never been about PVP" and they will lose a big chunk of the existing fanbase. SOE just doesn't care because there is a way bigger return on investment in making something different from the games they made in the past. And judging by the impressions of editors from MMORPG.COM and TenTonHammer, this game is likely a triple-A blockbuster that will retain fans for a long time.

One final point...  although some people claim the fanbase is categorically against this change, I disagree. ice-vortex did a poll where about half of the 300+ respondents said they would still play even if this game is open-world, non-consensual PVP. Holy cow! People are ready for change.

So yeah. If SOE builds it, they will come. And they'll stay.

I find it amusing when I view a post that states if it is open world non consensual PvP they won't play the game....haha riiight!

Oh wait they want easy mode where you can go out and kill without recourse; senseless, mindless MOBs with highly predictible AI...been there, done that, done with that!

There are plenty of MMORPGs to choose from these days...SOE is a big company and they can afford to make this game however they like and not just to cater to carebears

Simply said im lookin for a real challenge, not a mindless timesink

 

 

Look for it all you want, EXPECTING it to be this title, in particular at this point and based off of a few tweets is just foolish.  I'm not saying the game won't be this way, I'm simply saying odds aren't with it being so and there's no confirmation or anything saying otherwise.  Temper your expectations.

Were you around during the so called dry periods between MMORPGs in the past where a MMORPG player would wait years for what was hyped as being the next big MMORPG everyone was waiting for?

I didn't hear about Everquest Next until recently as I was on hiatus (not playing any MMORPGs or any game or even waiting for any game for that matter) for a few years as it was rehash after rehash; as has been stated by good ol Smed himself :)

I for one am willing to wait (a little over a month) to see what all this hype is about as I played Everquest day one of launch and really enjoyed it at that time...since then everything has been an Everquest Clone with slight variations here and there, of sorts; however its time to really bring it and from what has been said they seem ready to bring it...

Im not expecting anything to be quite honest; especially in these times :)

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:31:38 AM#54
Originally posted by Kuanshu

I find it amusing when I view a post that states if it is open world non consensual PvP they won't play the game....haha riiight!

Oh wait they want easy mode where you can go out and kill without recourse; senseless, mindless MOBs with highly predictible AI...been there, done that, done with that!

There are plenty of MMORPGs to choose from these days...SOE is a big company and they can afford to make this game however they like and not just to cater to carebears

Simply said im lookin for a real challenge, not a mindless timesink

 

Ironically, the one solid bit of info that we have on EQNext is that it is going to use StoryBricks, which is new dynamic AI for NPCs.

  Darth-Batman

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 717

Bruce, I am your father.

6/22/13 11:31:45 AM#55
I would think they'd have PVP, RP and PVE servers/shards at launch. Maybe itll be something like DCUO's PVP to PVE where players can port back and forth from PVP server to PVE server using an NPC or node.
  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1822

6/22/13 11:36:41 AM#56
Originally posted by DocBrody

Bring up one major developer big budget sandbox like EQN with non consensual PvP, then we´ll talk again.

I can already taste the sweet sweet tears of the PvE-only players, when the game hits 10 million players.

EQ had non consensual PVP actually. And the PVP servers died, there is only 1 left, while there are 16 PVE servers.

Some people like non-consensual PVP, but you're delusional if you think it's anything more than a small niche market.

  Kuanshu

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

6/22/13 11:38:10 AM#57
[mod edit]

If it was only down to having FFA PvP or no PvP; if it was only that simple :)

Personally I consider total free for all PvP to be non existent these days and I highly doubt its total FFA PvP as it simply doesn't make sense at this time...

Unless there was some risk, penalities, punishment; experienced by the player, firsthand

  pdk25

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/06
Posts: 115

6/22/13 11:41:11 AM#58
I`m excited about EQ Next as much as anyone but I couldn`t care less about PVP. The sandbox playstyle is what I am interested in. It`s what I liked about EQ1 so much. There was nothing pointing you to go to a certain area. I hope the game turns out to be great.
  DocBrody

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1479

6/22/13 11:41:27 AM#59
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Bidwood

One final point...  although some people claim the fanbase is categorically against this change, I disagree. ice-vortex did a poll where about half of the 300+ respondents said they would still play even if this game is open-world, non-consensual PVP. Holy cow! People are ready for change.
 

150 people on a forum known for idolising commercial failures like DFUW. Yeah seems like good statistics.

More like 'if you build it, it will fail'. Which is what it will do if you impose unwanted PvP on the masses.

 ahhh, discrediting the sample pool. Well played Sir!

If nothing works, this always does!

/ slow clap

  Dullahan

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 754

Death to Themepark.

6/22/13 11:58:59 AM#60

Most people are clueless as to why sandbox MMOs really haven't done well.

Just like themepark games fail because of their triviality, sandbox games fail because your accomplishments are mostly superficial and have little to no real impact on the world or other players.

Give me a game thats completely open world like Darkfall thats actually fun and challenging without PvP (like EQ), and it will be amazing with the addition of PvP.  To this day, EQ pvp servers are, hands down, the most fun that I ever had in an MMO.  Put that into a sandbox with a world thats more than a backdrop, and we'd finally have a game to play that wouldn't be boring after just a few weeks.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
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Awaiting The Repopulation, and Archeage.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

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