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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Everquest Next is not going to have core loot gameplay of EQ1, EQ2 and other themeparks.

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111 posts found
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2316

World > Quest Progression

6/22/13 12:10:35 AM#81
I would love a more lateral form of progression that is skill based with as little or no gear score factor. We already knew EQN was aiming to be something different and more of a sandbox.

Until we know how that is actually going to be implemented we will not know how it will effect PvP and PvE aspects. This thread was designed to equate "no gear progression" to mean a sign that EQN was designed as a PvP focused game. The OP itself was stated in every PvP based thread before this was created. It's a stretch theory that will has no grounds until either more info is "leaked" or until August 2nd.

At which point I will be back here to discuss any new information. I'm very excited for EQN and would rather it leave a good taste in my mouth.
  Grailer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 819

6/22/13 12:15:51 AM#82

I believe the game will be more about crafting items , gathering resources .  building stuff .

 

But the dungeons and things will probably be more player created storybricks  .

 

Loot will probably not be what people are expecting .

 

I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed that this isn't WoW 2 .

  sodade21

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/18/09
Posts: 341

6/22/13 12:17:33 AM#83

Have they made any mentions about the combat system?

What do you think?

1)it will be the classic old tab targeting...?

2)the careberish gw2 semi-action were u cannot miss but u can move while casting?

3)like tera (alot action but still not too preciece -not easy to miss-)

Or

4)completely Action like A FPS,like Darkfall.. (where u mostly miss :P )?

sodade21 Xfire Miniprofile
  rogue187

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/13
Posts: 152

6/22/13 12:21:35 AM#84
Of all the features an mmo can have you "poll" about this?....idc as long as it has MORE features than ArcheAge..I'm interested
  toddze

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 2195

I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.

6/22/13 12:22:35 AM#85
SOE has lost any benifit of the doubt for me, i need to see the game, read the about the features, and most importantly hear feedback from beta testers about those features because every dev put a huge sugar coat on them when they tell us about them. And yet the people eat up every sugar coated word and takes it to heart. I have gotten pretty good about reading from beta testers even if they hate the feature. Rule of thumb, if its thempark lover praising the game, I am going to hate the game and will skip it, if a themepark player hating on the game and using words like grind, to hard and timesink, I will love the game.

Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1897

6/22/13 9:44:49 PM#86
Originally posted by Bidwood
Originally posted by Trudge34
Originally posted by Bidwood
ice-vortex is 100 per cent correct. All the info we have to go by is what Smedley said, and he said the loot grind gameplay is going out the window.

No he did not. From the same article that ice posted.

"Typically, three or four times a year, we as MMO companies put new endgame in there to keep the raiders happy.

We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that. We're not talking about the end of raids, the end of this incredibly high-level content. We're talking about changing the nature of the world around it so that there's a lot more to do "in between" expansions."

That says people want endgame content and it will be there. It doesn't say that will involve grinding. Smedley implied the traditional loot grinding won't be part of the equation:

"EverQuest, WoW, SWTOR all use the same core loot gameplay, which is kill stuff, get reward, get loot, level up. Very few games have broken out of that mold."

GW2 stepped out of that mold by making gear much, much less relevant to the over-all game, yet all you hear right now is people complaining about how unrewarding the game feels, so much so that each patch there seems to be some statement by ANet about improving loot drops.  Games that tried tying all loot to crafting components have shown over and over again how they turn off a large part of the gaming community.  Smedley is going to really have to figure out some kind of reward system that actually feels rewarding if they think they can avoid item progression, especially once you've leveled.  On top of that, it has to be a reward system that has lasting appeal over the game's lifespan.

  teddyboy420

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/22/04
Posts: 388

Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders - Friedrich Nietzsche

6/22/13 10:15:18 PM#87

We need more context, so I'm going to throw out some more quotes from the interview, and the proper context is only revealed when the whole interview is read. Or, at least the key parts of it, which kind of create more questions then answers when you get right down to it.

I have to take issue with the OP telling everyone not to "delude yourselves" b/c EQNext is going to be a sandbox and not a themepark, I think he is really only deluding himself. What we're going to get is Themebox or Sandpark. Why do I say that? Taken from the same interview the OP took a snipet from:

"I also said in there that it will still be very familiar to you,...."

"I'm not saying we're going to a big skill-based system."

"We're changing what AI is in these games to a degree that we're going to bring life to the world" ...... (THIS is the big one and, what I feel is really key to all this, if EQNext was a TRUE sandbox like some people are hoping it will be, AI wouldn't play nearly as large of a role)

"It all revolves around what the sandbox elements that you're putting into the game are. Certainly griefers are a part of every game. Our intent is not to make a game where antisocial people rule the world. The intent is to make a world that's immersive and allows so many player interactions and so much involvement, not to empower griefers" ..... (Here's one that, to me, pretty much rules out non-consensual PvP, or at the very least will make people that enjoy being asses and killing people they shouldn't be very unhappy)

"We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that. We're not talking about the end of raids, the end of this incredibly high-level content. We're talking about changing the nature of the world around it so that there's a lot more to do "in between" expansions. A good example, but a very narrow example, is battlegrounds in WoW or EQII, where players get bored doing it over and over again. But imagine the entire world as part of the interaction. Imagine seasons changing. Imagine if you're a Druid and you need to literally seek out reagents for your spells or worship your deity in a glade somewhere off in the wilderness, but you don't know where. Or image forests growing back after they're burned to the ground by invading forces. What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it." ...... (Here's another one that throws the pure-sandbox idea right out the window. There's no such things as EQ-type Raids in a pure-sandbox. This right here is why I say we're going to get a Themebox or Sandpark, something that's not totally either, but a nice mix of both. If such a thing is possible)

 

EQNext WILL be loot driven, just not purely in the way we are used to, I think. I just hope that SoE makes this game interesting enough that both sides of the fence aren't totally pissed at what we get. Which, from everything I've read, is going to be a mix of both.

  ice-vortex

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 907

 
OP  6/22/13 11:18:54 PM#88
Originally posted by teddyboy420

We need more context, so I'm going to throw out some more quotes from the interview, and the proper context is only revealed when the whole interview is read. Or, at least the key parts of it, which kind of create more questions then answers when you get right down to it.

I have to take issue with the OP telling everyone not to "delude yourselves" b/c EQNext is going to be a sandbox and not a themepark, I think he is really only deluding himself. What we're going to get is Themebox or Sandpark. Why do I say that? Taken from the same interview the OP took a snipet from:

"I also said in there that it will still be very familiar to you,...."

"I'm not saying we're going to a big skill-based system."

"We're changing what AI is in these games to a degree that we're going to bring life to the world" ...... (THIS is the big one and, what I feel is really key to all this, if EQNext was a TRUE sandbox like some people are hoping it will be, AI wouldn't play nearly as large of a role)

"It all revolves around what the sandbox elements that you're putting into the game are. Certainly griefers are a part of every game. Our intent is not to make a game where antisocial people rule the world. The intent is to make a world that's immersive and allows so many player interactions and so much involvement, not to empower griefers" ..... (Here's one that, to me, pretty much rules out non-consensual PvP, or at the very least will make people that enjoy being asses and killing people they shouldn't be very unhappy)

"We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that. We're not talking about the end of raids, the end of this incredibly high-level content. We're talking about changing the nature of the world around it so that there's a lot more to do "in between" expansions. A good example, but a very narrow example, is battlegrounds in WoW or EQII, where players get bored doing it over and over again. But imagine the entire world as part of the interaction. Imagine seasons changing. Imagine if you're a Druid and you need to literally seek out reagents for your spells or worship your deity in a glade somewhere off in the wilderness, but you don't know where. Or image forests growing back after they're burned to the ground by invading forces. What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it." ...... (Here's another one that throws the pure-sandbox idea right out the window. There's no such things as EQ-type Raids in a pure-sandbox. This right here is why I say we're going to get a Themebox or Sandpark, something that's not totally either, but a nice mix of both. If such a thing is possible)

 

EQNext WILL be loot driven, just not purely in the way we are used to, I think. I just hope that SoE makes this game interesting enough that both sides of the fence aren't totally pissed at what we get. Which, from everything I've read, is going to be a mix of both.

A true sandbox would need extensive AI if you want a dynamic ecology. Storybricks, which is at least part of their AI, was a toolset that allowed player created NPCs which could very well play an important part in city creation.

I know PVEers have a hard time grasping this, but the word griefing is not synonymous with pking. In fact, Smedley gave Hulkageddon as an example of emergent gameplay and called it amazingly fun. Hulkageddon is a player created event in EVE where prizes are given for going into highsec and pking defenseless mining ships. There's no reason to have an anti-griefing system if there isn't the potential for griefing to begin with. In the same interview he describes the anti-griefing system in Planetside 2.

I think what he said about raids went right over your head. Sandbox does not equate to no powerful mobs, I am not even sure how you came to that conclusion. There will obviously be powerful mobs that take a lot of high level people to take down. There are already mobs like this in other sandbox games. He specifically says, and you quoted him, that the typical chore for raiding which is done on the item progression treadmill, will not be there.

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:22:32 PM#89
Originally posted by ice-vortex
 

A true sandbox would need extensive AI if you want a dynamic ecology. Storybricks, which is at least part of their AI, was a toolset that allowed player created NPCs which could very well play an important part in city creation.

I know PVEers have a hard time grasping this, but the word griefing is not synonymous with pking. In fact, Smedley gave Hulkageddon as an example of emergent gameplay and called it amazingly fun. Hulkageddon is a player created event in EVE where prizes are given for going into highsec and pking defenseless mining ships. There's no reason to have an anti-griefing system if there isn't the potential for griefing to begin with. In the same interview he describes the anti-griefing system in Planetside 2.

I think what he said about raids went right over your head. Sandbox does not equate to no powerful mobs, I am not even sure how you came to that conclusion. There will obviously be powerful mobs that take a lot of high level people to take down. There are already mobs like this in other sandbox games. He specifically says, and you quoted him, that the typical chore for raiding which is done on the item progression treadmill, will not be there.

This is a fantastic breakdown and addresses my issue with this forum.  People need to open their eyes and realize that they're talking about approaching PVP and PVE differently.

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:26:09 PM#90
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by evilastro
Smed talks a lot of shit. 

He talks nothing but. He said EQNext would have permadeath too. He's in China atm I believe, he just says random stuff to rile up the community.

It was also quickly revealed why he tweeted that as well.

 

Originally posted by Iadien
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by evilastro
Smed talks a lot of shit. 

He talks nothing but. He said EQNext would have permadeath too. He's in China atm I believe, he just says random stuff to rile up the community.

That was clearly a joke, and then it was cleared up later for those of you that actually thought he was being serious.

It was a joke, but it was said there are developers within SOE that do favor permadeath and that Smedley wanted to see the reactions from it.

 

So then what makes you think his current tweets are not 'jokes' to test the public reactions?

  ice-vortex

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 907

 
OP  6/22/13 11:30:02 PM#91
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by evilastro
Smed talks a lot of shit. 

He talks nothing but. He said EQNext would have permadeath too. He's in China atm I believe, he just says random stuff to rile up the community.

It was also quickly revealed why he tweeted that as well.

 

Originally posted by Iadien
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by evilastro
Smed talks a lot of shit. 

He talks nothing but. He said EQNext would have permadeath too. He's in China atm I believe, he just says random stuff to rile up the community.

That was clearly a joke, and then it was cleared up later for those of you that actually thought he was being serious.

It was a joke, but it was said there are developers within SOE that do favor permadeath and that Smedley wanted to see the reactions from it.

 

So then what makes you think his current tweets are not 'jokes' to test the public reactions?

Because this isn't the first time he's discussed open world PVP in EQN.

  Stiler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

6/22/13 11:32:19 PM#92

A sandbox world needs AI, just as much as a non-sandbox...

 

A sandbox world does not meant here is no PVE, it merely means that the world is more open, not as linear, not designed in a way that you are carefully put through specific zones/quest lines that are developed to lead you on a pre defined path through the world, but rather it is open and you can explore and do what you wish how you wish. This also doesn't mean there can't be any "harder" creatures or tough npc's to fight either. You can still encounter very tough enemies while adventuring and exlporing, but the entire world isn't built such that you're led through content that's built specifically for lv x to experience.

 

AI can help this game drastically, if it wants to be something new/different, having AI that actually interacts with other AI, animals that actually behave like real animals. Hunting other animals, moving around (instead of standing in one spot waiting for someone to kill them for exp like most mmo's).

Imagine also if AI was good enough that you could actually play combat more realistically. Where a rogue type player could actually use STEALTH, and I do not mean "pop invisible" stealth, but actual shadows, disguises, etc. Like you get in the Metal GEar games or SPlinter Cell, that'd be amazing.

  kellian1

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 208

6/22/13 11:35:36 PM#93
Originally posted by Stiler

A sandbox world needs AI, just as much as a non-sandbox...

 

A sandbox world does not meant here is no PVE, it merely means that the world is more open, not as linear, not designed in a way that you are carefully put through specific zones/quest lines that are developed to lead you on a pre defined path through the world, but rather it is open and you can explore and do what you wish how you wish. This also doesn't mean there can't be any "harder" creatures or tough npc's to fight either. You can still encounter very tough enemies while adventuring and exlporing, but the entire world isn't built such that you're led through content that's built specifically for lv x to experience.

 

AI can help this game drastically, if it wants to be something new/different, having AI that actually interacts with other AI, animals that actually behave like real animals. Hunting other animals, moving around (instead of standing in one spot waiting for someone to kill them for exp like most mmo's).

Imagine also if AI was good enough that you could actually play combat more realistically. Where a rogue type player could actually use STEALTH, and I do not mean "pop invisible" stealth, but actual shadows, disguises, etc. Like you get in the Metal GEar games or SPlinter Cell, that'd be amazing.

What if you as the player could do your PvP but only by controlling the monsters in game? Not like Lotro did it but in real time, in game. Having all the skills and abilities of said monster and could level him up? Interesting concept and bang you have your PvP in the context of PvE

  User Deleted
6/22/13 11:37:02 PM#94
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by evilastro
Smed talks a lot of shit. 

He talks nothing but. He said EQNext would have permadeath too. He's in China atm I believe, he just says random stuff to rile up the community.

It was also quickly revealed why he tweeted that as well.

 

Originally posted by Iadien
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by evilastro
Smed talks a lot of shit. 

He talks nothing but. He said EQNext would have permadeath too. He's in China atm I believe, he just says random stuff to rile up the community.

That was clearly a joke, and then it was cleared up later for those of you that actually thought he was being serious.

It was a joke, but it was said there are developers within SOE that do favor permadeath and that Smedley wanted to see the reactions from it.

 

So then what makes you think his current tweets are not 'jokes' to test the public reactions?

Because this isn't the first time he's discussed open world PVP in EQN.

So far he has only said that he agrees that a sandbox game needs conflict to drive the economy and risk vs reward.  This doesn't say that the whole game will be FFA PvP, it just means that there will be open world PvP in some form. For all you know, there could be a very small island where territory control is undertaken.

You guys need to temper your excitement until the details are revealed. Foaming at the mouth over non-committed cryptic tweets is just silly. Especially from this guy, who lies constantly.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7031

6/22/13 11:37:15 PM#95
What's funny OP is that most of these people have no idea how this could be possible. 
  STYNKFYST

Elite Member

Joined: 5/27/13
Posts: 309

6/22/13 11:44:49 PM#96
The "PVE vs PVP debate" never needs to happen either way. It's a one legged butt kicking contest...always has been.
  teddyboy420

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/22/04
Posts: 388

Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders - Friedrich Nietzsche

6/23/13 7:18:01 PM#97
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by ice-vortex
 

A true sandbox would need extensive AI if you want a dynamic ecology. Storybricks, which is at least part of their AI, was a toolset that allowed player created NPCs which could very well play an important part in city creation.

I know PVEers have a hard time grasping this, but the word griefing is not synonymous with pking. In fact, Smedley gave Hulkageddon as an example of emergent gameplay and called it amazingly fun. Hulkageddon is a player created event in EVE where prizes are given for going into highsec and pking defenseless mining ships. There's no reason to have an anti-griefing system if there isn't the potential for griefing to begin with. In the same interview he describes the anti-griefing system in Planetside 2.

I think what he said about raids went right over your head. Sandbox does not equate to no powerful mobs, I am not even sure how you came to that conclusion. There will obviously be powerful mobs that take a lot of high level people to take down. There are already mobs like this in other sandbox games. He specifically says, and you quoted him, that the typical chore for raiding which is done on the item progression treadmill, will not be there.

This is a fantastic breakdown and addresses my issue with this forum.  People need to open their eyes and realize that they're talking about approaching PVP and PVE differently.

Ok, I think that what this is all really coming down to is that we (all) have different definitions of what a "sandbox" MMO is. In fact, I think much of this thread, and indeed much of the debate on this game in general, is arising from different people having different ideas of what a Sandbox really is. Let me give my definition....

A Sandbox MMO, to me, has NO defined goals. It is a world where players are given the tools to make their own fun. This being said, I see some mobs, but nothing really like raids. In a sandbox, you are given toys to play with that you use to play with the other "kids", so you all have one general experience where each of the "kids" is having an impact on the other "kids" game. I guess I would define a true sandbox MMO as being pure-PvP, b/c once you start adding in large, scripted encounters, and advanced AI systems that adds developer defined goals, or using the tools they are given, to interact with and directly affect other players. I mean, I guess it is in a much less direct way. Any kind of PvE is the player interacting with what the devs have created, and thus, is not really "sandbox". That's just me though, clearly others have other ideas. This is also why I say that I believe we are going to get a "Sandpark" or "Themebox", my definition just differs from yours.

 

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10429

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/23/13 7:28:58 PM#98


Originally posted by ice-vortex

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by ice-vortex

Originally posted by Aelious Smed also said that raids aren't going anywhere. He's said more than once that you can't continue to just put out dev generated content but that you need BOTH to be successful.
However, he also described how raids aren't going to be in the same paragraph:"What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it."   So while 'raids' will be in it, it won't be the raiding content EQ1 and EQ2 players expect. There are three quotes within his interviews talking about getting rid of the loot progression system found in themeparks.
He's not saying anything specific at all. There are interviews where he says that theme park style things have to be included, and interviews where he says theme park style things can't be included. It's all gibberish.  
Feel free to show us these contradictory statements.


They're in this thread. It's your thread, you started it, read it.

** ** **

And again, he's not said anything specific at all. He's left everything up for people to insert all the stuff they want. It generates interest, and generates discussion, but he's not telling us anything.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  achesoma

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 958

6/23/13 7:33:55 PM#99
Originally posted by evilastro
Smed talks a lot of shit. I would hold off judgement til August rather than trying to decipher his bullshit.

This x 1000.  So now Smed is going to be the "savior" of MMOs lol.  Smed is a liar, plain and simple.  He's like a guy out of town in a hotel bar talking to a young lady.  He's going to say whatever it takes.  I really hope EQN lives up to the wild expectations of all the forum goers here but I'm doubtful. 

  giga1000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/06
Posts: 92

6/23/13 7:51:32 PM#100
Originally posted by AIMonster
Ugh, that's all I have to say.  Not sure how you are going to keep PvE players interested for an extended period of time without things like loot progression and raiding.  This was an issue in GW2 for quite a few people and even that could probably be considered a "core loot" game.  I hope they don't take that EVE example to heart, as EVE is a very niche game that mostly appeals to PvPers.

There is more than one way to skin a cat and loot is not the main thing is games. If you give players many many ways of doing things then loot will not matter because you are having fun. 

Sandbox games are supposed to have many many tools to do anything you want as in Build, Combat, Explore, Craft, Harvest, Design, player made ideas. Like with story bricks I could log on every days and just make up random quests for people to do.

Or log on and spend my time designing a town then spend the next month making it. 

Or Build houses and furnish them then sell them.

Or Explore a dangerous world for myself or my guild as a scout.

Or Craft and organize as many crafting players as I can and make a true crafting guild.

Terraforming areas for players to build on or to set up defensive areas to protect villages, towns, and citys.

Creating Dungeons with dungeon maker for players to explore and fight in.

The list goes on and on.

The main point is that over the past 10 years Company's have become more and more short sited and we are all hoping these things will finally be added so MMORPG's will evolve and immerse us once again instead of the whole round and round we go on the same ride.

I for one know a lot of these systems will be in EQNext because they are in other SOE games and I believe this game will be a eye opener for MMORPG's because it is the things like this players have been waiting for for the past well since gaming began. 

Just my opinion.

 

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