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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Interview with Yoshida on P2P decision

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172 posts found
  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4657

6/20/13 2:27:55 PM#141

Yoshida's view of F2P is really shallow - he is not looking at a well monetized game that offers constant changes to online stores and is bringing in a steady stream of revenue from players.

The issue is that many F2P games are very poorly monetized, there is a lot more to it than having some items in the cash shops, you need a solid business/monetization unit that is tracking what players are doing in game, what items are being sought out, what consumables are being used, where the economy in game is heading - and on top of all that the system has to be fair and not game unbalancing.

To monetize a game successfully you must have a real time pulse on the entire playerbase, and then determine what items would be desirable from day to day, and that requires spot on metrics, reporting and a great monetization team. Most folks don't realize this, but in-game cash shops in F2P games are very costly to implement right.

lastly, P2P is MUCH easier to do than a F2P model, which requires a platform that can handle in-game shop and a team to monetize the game correctly, P2P requires no additional coding at all, nor any additional metrics/reporting or team members.

 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

6/20/13 2:30:11 PM#142
Originally posted by MattTheHG

Yoshida is the man!

It's a good move, indeed. You can tell that SE really wants this to be a quality MMO for people to play and enjoy, and for people working behind the scenes to get what they deserve.

 Why are you acting like this when the game was originally released as a P2P and in extremely bad shape...

P2P does not = quality nor does it bring it after time.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/20/13 2:30:33 PM#143
Originally posted by SnarkRitter
Originally posted by Murugan

What of the proof that those games DIDN'T offer the traditional MMORPG experience.

I said they weren't different enough from traditional MMORPGs.

TERA, SWTOR did not have a very good endgame and never added any.  People had no reason to continue subscribing after they finished leveling their chosen class.

And apparently, you assume that FF XIV ARR will have a very good endgame. And no, SWTOR actually had a  good endgame at launch and a very decent content update pace for the first 3 months, but still it bled subs like mad.

Rift stayed p2p for years, it has a greedy studio behind it that doesnt' care about its subscribers,what can I say about that.

Oh, actually the popular opinion is that Trion has the best customers support among MMORPGs developers, and RIFTs has one of, if not, the most rapid content update speed of all MMORPGs. Also RIFTs had very good endgame at launch.

You re-confirm my opinion is that FF XIV fanboys live in a world different from normal peoples.

Keep deluding yourself that the failure of SWTOR is proof of a universal demand for Mortal Online style sandboxes (or whatever "unique" featureset you are shilling for) and nothing to do with the game's myriad problems.

And you assume that FF XIV ARR won't have it's share of myriad problems.

Want to know the biggest universal complain all those games had? The answer is: "This game isn't different enough from traditional MMORPGs.

But you can keep convincing yourself .

Originally posted by danwest58

FYI GW2 is not a massive success.  I know I have had many friends go play the game, within a month quit because its nothing but D3 in an MMO setting.  Hate to say it but you are wrong.  You posted your opinion now go else where.  You dont see me trolling the WildSTar forums with my negativity about WildStar and how much I think it will flop do you?  No I have respect for them. 

Oh, GW2 is nothing but "D3 in an MMO setting"? Oh you learn something new from FF XIV fanboys everyday.

Hate to say it but your friend was lying to you. And yes, GW2 is a massive success, only need to look at NCSoft financial report to see the proof.

I played SWTOR I disagree, I must live in a different reality.  I thought SWTOR's endgame was not very good, bug ridden, and that's why everyone I knew quit it.  Not because it wasn't "different enough".  Most people I talked to played the game and did the storyline, then found the traditional MMORPG elements to be lacking compared to other titles.  You didn't, so good for you, but enough obviously did that the game had a massive exodus of subscribers and EA chose to make it f2p as a result of that.

 

of course now retroactively a lot of people are using it as "undeniable proof" that people want a dramatically "unique" MMORPG experience (which is really just them trying to convince others that their niche feature set is the REAL WoW killer)

 

Rift sure did get a lot of updates, and I think that proves that P2P works.  I quit for reasons other than that (the world, the storyline, the classes available did not appeal to me).  But Trion decided to go F2P anyways, that makes them a crap company in my opinion.  It is classic bait and switch.  Buy our expansion, come back and subscribe to the game!  That is what they said, I have their emails still.

 

All the while they were secretly meeting and planning to turn the game f2p.  Yes "Best customer support" ever.

 

I'm not a fanboy, I'll quit the second Square Enix makes this game f2p, destroys endgame, or fails to deliver content I like.  I don't make excuses because I "love final fantasy", I'm playing this MMORPG because out of all the MMORPG's I've played (and that is a lot) I like this one the best.

 

Tell me again how I'm deluded.

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  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/20/13 2:31:49 PM#144
Originally posted by DMKano

Yoshida's view of F2P is really shallow - he is not looking at a well monetized game that offers constant changes to online stores and is bringing in a steady stream of revenue from players.

The issue is that many F2P games are very poorly monetized, there is a lot more to it than having some items in the cash shops, you need a solid business/monetization unit that is tracking what players are doing in game, what items are being sought out, what consumables are being used, where the economy in game is heading - and on top of all that the system has to be fair and not game unbalancing.

To monetize a game successfully you must have a real time pulse on the entire playerbase, and then determine what items would be desirable from day to day, and that requires spot on metrics, reporting and a great monetization team. Most folks don't realize this, but in-game cash shops in F2P games are very costly to implement right.

lastly, P2P is MUCH easier to do than a F2P model, which requires a platform that can handle in-game shop and a team to monetize the game correctly, P2P requires no additional coding at all, nor any additional metrics/reporting or team members.

 

It is hard work nickle and diming people who didn't think your game was worth paying to play.

 

I'll give you that, props to all the cash shop developers in f2p MMO's.  You guys are great at what you do.  What a resume that must be "And then I discovered if I made the game even more boring that people would pay me for XP potions so they didn't have to play it as long!" < Genius!

 

/disgusted

 

I did get a laugh at the whole fair and balanced thing though when people can pay real money to get an advantage.  I call that cheating, but hey differences of opinion.

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http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4657

6/20/13 2:40:50 PM#145
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by DMKano

Yoshida's view of F2P is really shallow - he is not looking at a well monetized game that offers constant changes to online stores and is bringing in a steady stream of revenue from players.

The issue is that many F2P games are very poorly monetized, there is a lot more to it than having some items in the cash shops, you need a solid business/monetization unit that is tracking what players are doing in game, what items are being sought out, what consumables are being used, where the economy in game is heading - and on top of all that the system has to be fair and not game unbalancing.

To monetize a game successfully you must have a real time pulse on the entire playerbase, and then determine what items would be desirable from day to day, and that requires spot on metrics, reporting and a great monetization team. Most folks don't realize this, but in-game cash shops in F2P games are very costly to implement right.

lastly, P2P is MUCH easier to do than a F2P model, which requires a platform that can handle in-game shop and a team to monetize the game correctly, P2P requires no additional coding at all, nor any additional metrics/reporting or team members.

 

It is hard work nickle and diming people who didn't think your game was worth paying to play.

 

I'll give you that, props to all the cash shop developers in f2p MMO's.  You guys are great at what you do.  What a resume that must be "And then I discovered if I made the game even more boring that people would pay me for XP potions so they didn't have to play it as long!" < Genius!

 

/disgusted

You are disgusted at devs spending tens of millions of dollars to implement complex systems that ultimately allow you play games for free?

And those F2P in-game shops also mean additional jobs at game companies... it's rough times, so having 20+ extra job positions due to F2P is a good deal for many developers that are looking for work.

F2P is creating additional jobs.... P2P is not.

 

  SnarkRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/28/10
Posts: 337

6/20/13 2:42:37 PM#146
Originally posted by Murugan

Rift sure did get a lot of updates, and I think that proves that P2P works.  I quit for reasons other than that (the world, the storyline, the classes available did not appeal to me).  But Trion decided to go F2P anyways, that makes them a crap company in my opinion.  It is classic bait and switch.  Buy our expansion, come back and subscribe to the game!  That is what they said, I have their emails still.

Oh yes RIFTs were doing so well that they had to merged more than half of the servers by the 6 months mark, and a year later had a layoff.

All the while they were secretly meeting and planning to turn the game f2p.  Yes "Best customer support" ever.

It's nothing more than your assumption. Want to know why RIFTs lasted this long as a P2P MMORPG? Because the playerbase love Trion thanks to their excellent customers supper and rapid content update pace.

I'm not a fanboy, I'll quit the second Square Enix makes this game f2p, destroys endgame, or fails to deliver content I like.  I don't make excuses because I "love final fantasy", I'm playing this MMORPG because out of all the MMORPG's I've played (and that is a lot) I like this one the best.

 

Tell me again how I'm deluded.

You'll realize it yourself, in time. I used to believe that solid gameplay alone is enough to make the game successful and thrives (I used to fanboy RIFTs like that), but reality has made me realized that solid gameplay alone is not enough, the gameplay has to be both solid and greatly (almost completely) different to make the game successful and thrives.

 

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/20/13 2:43:29 PM#147
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by DMKano

Yoshida's view of F2P is really shallow - he is not looking at a well monetized game that offers constant changes to online stores and is bringing in a steady stream of revenue from players.

The issue is that many F2P games are very poorly monetized, there is a lot more to it than having some items in the cash shops, you need a solid business/monetization unit that is tracking what players are doing in game, what items are being sought out, what consumables are being used, where the economy in game is heading - and on top of all that the system has to be fair and not game unbalancing.

To monetize a game successfully you must have a real time pulse on the entire playerbase, and then determine what items would be desirable from day to day, and that requires spot on metrics, reporting and a great monetization team. Most folks don't realize this, but in-game cash shops in F2P games are very costly to implement right.

lastly, P2P is MUCH easier to do than a F2P model, which requires a platform that can handle in-game shop and a team to monetize the game correctly, P2P requires no additional coding at all, nor any additional metrics/reporting or team members.

 

It is hard work nickle and diming people who didn't think your game was worth paying to play.

 

I'll give you that, props to all the cash shop developers in f2p MMO's.  You guys are great at what you do.  What a resume that must be "And then I discovered if I made the game even more boring that people would pay me for XP potions so they didn't have to play it as long!" < Genius!

 

/disgusted

You are disgusted at devs spending tens of millions of dollars to implement complex systems that ultimately allow you play games for free?

And those F2P in-game shops also mean additional jobs at game companies... it's rough times, so having 20+ extra job positions due to F2P is a good deal for many developers that are looking for work.

F2P is creating additional jobs.... P2P is not.

 

Or companies could just make better games that people are willing to pay for like SE, if they fail to do that they can go under.  Square Enix employed literally hundreds of people on the development of FFXIV. 

 

The people who are "allowed" to play for free do so on the backs of people who buy stuff in cash shops, so shouldn't you thank them and not the developers who created a system where those people had to actually pay real money for virtual items the developers created within worlds they control just so they could suck money from them?

 

I'm sure you will hope that SE fails and they all lose their jobs to prove that f2p is teh wave of the future.  Personally for their sake I hope the game is a success so these people can have true pride in their work creating a game that people ENJOY, and were wiling to pay for.

 

Rather than the f2p devs who only got paid because Charlie in the Cash Shop department managed to convince people to pay $50 for extra bag slots or some other shameful ploy to get at people's wallets just for "trying" to enjoy their game.  I'd be ashamed if I worked really hard to develop actual content for a game knowing that all my work was meaningless while the cash shop developers were the actual breadwinners of the company.

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http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

6/20/13 2:47:50 PM#148
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by colddog04

I don't actually care that you are being disrespectful. I was just pointing it out to the guy that was claiming I was being disrespectful for voicing my opinion that there are better P2P and F2P options than FF:ARR. FF:ARR will probably be fun for a month or two for many people, but really, the only thing it's offering is a FF universe. Other than that, you could probably get a better MMORPG experience from many of the F2P games and some that cost a sub.

Maybe you could, I can't I tried.

 

I paid for Rift, Tera, Aion, countless other F2P games when they were actual p2p MMORPG's, I have also played many as a F2P.  I'm not playing FFXIV because it is Final Fantasy.  I've only played one other FF title, and that was FFXI.  Which I played because it was a good MMORPG, not because of the final fantasy name.  It isn't my favorite MMORPG so I'm not playing XIV because of nostalgia for FFXI.  I think Vanguard was a better MMO (though I'll admit it was terribly mishandled by SOE/Sigil).

 

I'm playing FFXIV because it offers a better character progression system, a better storyline (Rift's storyline and world are honestly I think one of the worst ever and I can't play the game because of that and its class designs, even though I liked other portions of the game), and better encounters (based on experiences with this teams past examples in 1.x and demonstrations of similarly inspired albiet obviously less challenging low level content).

 

So you can belittle my opinion if you want, but and this may get me moderated I think you are a troll because you come in here and say "your game offers nothing others don't do better" and don't expand on that at all.  What do you like better in Rift, the soul system?  Maybe you prefer its world/storyline to ARR.

 

There was a time when people discussed games based on features and what they had to offer rather than just trolling them with  dime a dozen zingers and generalizations.  I don't expect you to have a civil discussion with me, so I'm sure youll just say "lol WoW Clone" or some other equally useless comment that will just further confirm my opinion of you.

Ok then, here is my reasoning behind why I feel that way. I think it's pretty average for a few reasons.

 

The combat is really slow. I think almost all MMORPGs that have come out in the past 5ish years have better combat. And it's not because I'm into a more action oriented style combat. I actually enjoy tab targeting systems. But the 2.5 second global cooldown mixed with a few instant casts with long cooldowns is just too boring to me. I have too much experience in MMORPGs to be able to put up with such a harsh restriction.

 

The world feels below average compared to other themepark MMORPGs. Enemies are crammed in every 20 feet from each other  and the zones themselves, while more open than they were in FFXIV V1, feel a lot more closed in than many other top MMORPGs. They just feel artificial and the zone lines tend to be more common than other more recent games.

 

It's very quest hub oriented. And it's a very "kill ten rats" oriented experience. I didn't expect this at all. I'm sure it changes a bit later after you've done all the quests, but I was hoping for a much stronger solo experience. I mean, the quests are worse than WoW quests which actually offer some semblance of variety. Of course you can simply choose not to do them like every other MMORPG and level through dungeons and group content or whatever. As a solo experience, it's just not very compelling.

 

Up till around level 20, the story was sub par in my opinion. Boring, useless cutscenes that weren't well written or interesting at all to me. I started to become glad you could skip them. This wasn't because I don't like the idea of story quests or because I have a short attention span or don't enjoy some good lore. It was because they just weren't very good. They were VERY cheesy even when compared to the story in FFXIII. This part of the game has gotten way more credit than it deserves in my opinion.

 

No voiceovers at all. I've read that they are going to add them after they figure out all the contracts or whatever, but it was a bit startling to have ZERO voiceover - especially in a FF game. I'm actually down for text when it comes to 90% of the game, but there were times when it was a bit jarring compared to some of the more recent offerings.

 

Soloability is really, really easy. Even if you do run out of quests, you can just run around and do fates and leves. They level you extremely quickly. I'm sure this will slow down as I get higher in the beta, but as of right now, god damn that was fast. 

 

There just isn't anything particularly special when I compare it to other MMORPGs. Rifts/DEs are better than fates. Quests are better in other MMORPGs. Leves are just dailies which I also don't like. Rift and EQ2 have great housing systems (I'm actually curious to check this out in FFXIV). Group dynamics in group content is more interesting in other games (limit breaks are over simplified imo). I've read a lot of people talking about how crafting is fairly useless while leveling it which is pretty standard for a themepark MMO. There is nothing that I've seen that makes this game stand up above some of the best F2P and P2P games. Hence my opinion that a lot of other games, be them F2P or P2P, are a better way to spend your time. 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4657

6/20/13 3:04:35 PM#149
Originally posted by Murugan
Or companies could just make better games that people are willing to pay for like SE, if they fail to do that they can go under.  Square Enix employed literally hundreds of people on the development of FFXIV. 

 It's not the greatness of the game solely anymore, the gamers have changed, the gamers have shifted to F2P MMOs, by having a P2P game today you are alienating many gamers who would have played it if it were F2P. You have to follow the trends of the market, this is reality.

The people who are "allowed" to play for free do so on the backs of people who buy stuff in cash shops, so shouldn't you thank them and not the developers who created a system where those people had to actually pay real money for virtual items the developers created within worlds they control just so they could suck money from them?

20% of gamers carry F2P games, so 80% of the gamers can thank the 20% for funfing F2P games. Either way without devs putting in online-cash shop and all the supporting systems to handle real time microtrans - they get the credit as without them none of it would exist.

 I'm sure you will hope that SE fails and they all lose their jobs to prove that f2p is teh wave of the future.  Personally for their sake I hope the game is a success so these people can have true pride in their work creating a game that people ENJOY, and were wiling to pay for.

I wish them all the success in the world, I hate to see game-devs out of a job, most of my friends work for game companies. These are very hard times for game companies - heck just last week Tencent Boston laid off a bunch, IO intercative cut their staff by 50% - it's happening every week, game devs are losing their jobs. P2P games also lay off staff - it has nothing to do with having pride in their work - F2P companies have folks who have pride in their work.

 

Rather than the f2p devs who only got paid because Charlie in the Cash Shop department managed to convince people to pay $50 for extra bag slots or some other shameful ploy to get at people's wallets just for "trying" to enjoy their game.  I'd be ashamed if I worked really hard to develop actual content for a game knowing that all my work was meaningless while the cash shop developers were the actual breadwinners of the company.

A sucky game with the best cash-shop is gonna fail - so it takes awesome devs all around to succeed. So no matter what Charlie in the Cash Shop does - he cannot be the actual breadwinner - it takes everybody doing their work at their peek - art, animation, music, FX, motion cap, lore, world designers, server engineers, client code dev, engine devs... etc.. all of them have to make a good game before monetization team can do anything worthwhile. Like I said if the core game sucks, it makes no difference.

 

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 781

6/20/13 3:11:54 PM#150
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Murugan

See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

 

Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

 

You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after it releases.

*SNIP*    ........ I think people who advocate for F2P are either freeloaders are cheaters......    *SNIP*

 

Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind this belief that people that play f2p games are "either freeloaders or cheaters" ?

I am curious as just flat out saying this is making you appear very bigoted and IMHO hurting your defense of p2p.

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  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3912

6/20/13 3:12:24 PM#151
blah blah blah blah this game is gonna do fine on p2p whatever...
  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1550

6/20/13 3:16:11 PM#152

I love it lol, the F2P crowd up in arms because the game is P2P, and they thought P2P was dead lol.

Pay up or don't play, it's as simple as that, the game will do fine without ya.

 

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  Jorl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/12
Posts: 262

6/20/13 3:16:49 PM#153
Originally posted by drivendawn
http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/      Really like this article.

I for one am happy. Tired of people being peasants and expect stuff free.

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/20/13 3:18:49 PM#154
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Murugan

Ok then, here is my reasoning behind why I feel that way. I think it's pretty average for a few reasons.

 

The combat is really slow. I think almost all MMORPGs that have come out in the past 5ish years have better combat. And it's not because I'm into a more action oriented style combat. I actually enjoy tab targeting systems. But the 2.5 second global cooldown mixed with a few instant casts with long cooldowns is just too boring to me. I have too much experience in MMORPGs to be able to put up with such a harsh restriction.

 

The world feels below average compared to other themepark MMORPGs. Enemies are crammed in every 20 feet from each other  and the zones themselves, while more open than they were in FFXIV V1, feel a lot more closed in than many other top MMORPGs. They just feel artificial and the zone lines tend to be more common than other more recent games.

 

It's very quest hub oriented. And it's a very "kill ten rats" oriented experience. I didn't expect this at all. I'm sure it changes a bit later after you've done all the quests, but I was hoping for a much stronger solo experience. I mean, the quests are worse than WoW quests which actually offer some semblance of variety. Of course you can simply choose not to do them like every other MMORPG and level through dungeons and group content or whatever. As a solo experience, it's just not very compelling.

 

Up till around level 20, the story was sub par in my opinion. Boring, useless cutscenes that weren't well written or interesting at all to me. I started to become glad you could skip them. This wasn't because I don't like the idea of story quests or because I have a short attention span or don't enjoy some good lore. It was because they just weren't very good. They were VERY cheesy even when compared to the story in FFXIII. This part of the game has gotten way more credit than it deserves in my opinion.

 

No voiceovers at all. I've read that they are going to add them after they figure out all the contracts or whatever, but it was a bit startling to have ZERO voiceover - especially in a FF game. I'm actually down for text when it comes to 90% of the game, but there were times when it was a bit jarring compared to some of the more recent offerings.

 

Soloability is really, really easy. Even if you do run out of quests, you can just run around and do fates and leves. They level you extremely quickly. I'm sure this will slow down as I get higher in the beta, but as of right now, god damn that was fast. 

 

There just isn't anything particularly special when I compare it to other MMORPGs. Rifts/DEs are better than fates. Quests are better in other MMORPGs. Leves are just dailies which I also don't like. Rift and EQ2 have great housing systems (I'm actually curious to check this out in FFXIV). Group dynamics in group content is more interesting in other games (limit breaks are over simplified imo). I've read a lot of people talking about how crafting is fairly useless while leveling it which is pretty standard for a themepark MMO. There is nothing that I've seen that makes this game stand up above some of the best F2P and P2P games. Hence my opinion that a lot of other games, be them F2P or P2P, are a better way to spend your time. 

Other than a few things that I think you misconstrued, thank you.  That explains it perfectly.  It will be useful not only to our discussion but to anyone reading it.

 

I'll just bullet point my responses:

  • Voice overs aren't coming "when they get the contracts figured out" they are coming at launch/Open Beta.  It was in the voice actor's contracts.  Probably because they might have some kind of minor royalty sharing or something.  I don't know, but they own their work and SE agreed to it.  It is confirmed though, so it is not a "possible feature" but a "definite" one.
  • I like the story personally, and think the cutscenes are well done. 
  • I don't find combat slow I am constantly active in combat and not bored
    • but really it is way too early in the game's cycle to judge this imo, I need at least a couple months at endgame to be able to judge the complexities and "fun factor" of an MMORPG combat system.
    •  
  • I also play MMORPG's for group and raid content though so most of your post doesn't apply to me at all.  I don't quest hub to level really preferring to do stuff like dungeons and guildhests which allow me to better learn my role. 
  • If I ever do quests/grinding for fast exp then I am just killing time and either don't care about or already have "mastered" my class.
  • I feel the actual content in the game, the main story quests, the quests for items and armor that I actually want is well done. 
  • "filler" exp.lore stuff (which was demanded by the playerbase and Yoshida listened to their feedback) is just that.  I might when I'm bored do some of the sidequests for interesting tidbits of lore I might not find otherwise, but I dont' judge an MMO based on them.  I think that's silly unless that was the only thing in the game, but point is it is not.  So it is just there for people who like it and doesn't negatively effect my experience at all.
  • To that point I don't feel that guildleves are dailies because I have no reason at all to do them if I don't want to.  They don't grant me gear I want, they aren't the only way to build up a faction I need.  We have had repeatable quests in MMO's for years and years, but I only remember the term daily be coined when WoW introduced repeatable quests that were mandatory to progressing your character.  So you are misusing the term I think.
I don't really play for FATE type content (it lacks the comradery and reward of more teamwork oriented content I feel) though I've experienced it in WAR/Rift/GW2/here and tried to keep an open mind. 
  • So far I've only done low level FATE's and they seemed the same as rift/gw2/war's offerings (though the boss ones I thought were better than WAR, and I thought in general they were more difficult than most public quests in GW2 or Rift). 
  • I'm hopefully that the endFATEs are more impressive than what I saw hyped in GW2 and Rift.  I felt those were a disappointment and since I wasn't doing them for exp by then I could only judge them as stand alone experiences and I felt they were lacking.

 

 

I guess that is why I like it and you don't, but now that you have detailed your criticisms.  People can read them and use your experiences to better decide for themselves whether this game might be for them or not.  As opposed to trolling with short generalizations and zingers that only accomplishes to piss off people who have different opinions than you.

 

The internet doesn't have to be such a cesspit all the time if people just take the time to have an actual discussion like you just did.  Thank you, I was wrong I now have a much higher opinion of you.

 

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  Kayo83

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/13
Posts: 148

6/20/13 3:26:06 PM#155

 


Originally posted by DMKano
F2P is creating additional jobs.... P2P is not.

 

You do realize these F2P conversions are surrounded by layoffs right? Do you honestly believe it takes a bigger team of developers to make the next cash shop fashion trend than it does to make real content?

The only "jobs" f2p is saving is those of the suits who gut their entire development  team in order to make it f2p.

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/20/13 3:34:07 PM#156
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Murugan

See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

 

Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

 

You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after it releases.

*SNIP*    ........ I think people who advocate for F2P are either freeloaders are cheaters......    *SNIP*

 

Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind this belief that people that play f2p games are "either freeloaders or cheaters" ?

I am curious as just flat out saying this is making you appear very bigoted and IMHO hurting your defense of p2p.

Well a free rider is anyone who leeches off of the contributions of others in order to share in the rewards without having to contribute themselves.  They don't contribute anything to the game because they are not helping to pay for it.  They simply play for free, taking up space and while they don't positively contribute to the game (because they don't pay), they can negatively contribute the game because they often:

  • Whine in chat about how crappy the game was (it was worth their tiem to download, but now they are just trolling)
  • Are very rude to other players.
  • Are themselves paid to spam gold selling adverts and other marketing

So they are freeloaders, they are just taking advantage of the fact that there are actual paying players while giving nothing back.  I guess you could say they are giving the gift of themselves, but I tried doing this with my girlfriend one year for Valentine's day and she wasn't very happy with me. 

 

A cheat is anyone who purchases an item in a cash shop that is not a content unlock (like an expansion or something).  They are bypassing the game's system to get an advantage using cash.  If I'm playing baseball and some guy is paying to get performance enhancing drugs or for the umpire to look the other way it makes me angry.  Even if I'm on their team and they can make the argument that it "doesn't negatively effect me" it is still cheating and I'm trying to play a game here and have fun.

 

Now I know what you will probably say.  "All these things happen in P2P MMO's and have for over a decade".  I don't disagree, but it is still a problem.  I don't want the game or the company behind the game to give in and start being the drug dealer selling the steroids or opening the floodgates to spammers and trolls in a desparate attempt to get some money.  I mean there is a limited amount of space on servers and I'm not profit sharing, I just want a fun experience.

 

I get a better experience in a P2P MMORPG.  I played Vanguard (when it was p2p) and I played TERA they both had piss poor development cycles for new content.  Business models alone, Vanguard was sooooo much better due to p2p without half of the problems f2p has brought Tera.  And I hear TERA is like the "best f2p" model ever.  As soon as you log into the game you have to wade through a sea of twelve year olds masturbating while performing emotes in their stripped down female characters.  I could go on, but to me that's enough to show you what F2P and more specifically "freeloading" really did for the game.

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  Coated

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/05/09
Posts: 258

6/20/13 3:37:36 PM#157
I know this is going to get a lot of negative feedback, but I for one am beyond happy with this decision.
  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 781

6/20/13 3:56:07 PM#158
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Murugan

See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

 

Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

 

You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after it releases.

*SNIP*    ........ I think people who advocate for F2P are either freeloaders are cheaters......    *SNIP*

 

Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind this belief that people that play f2p games are "either freeloaders or cheaters" ?

I am curious as just flat out saying this is making you appear very bigoted and IMHO hurting your defense of p2p.

Well a free rider is anyone who leeches off of the contributions of others in order to share in the rewards without having to contribute themselves.  They don't contribute anything to the game because they are not helping to pay for it.  They simply play for free, taking up space and while they don't positively contribute to the game (because they don't pay), they can negatively contribute the game because they often:

  • Whine in chat about how crappy the game was (it was worth their tiem to download, but now they are just trolling)
  • Are very rude to other players.
  • Are themselves paid to spam gold selling adverts and other marketing

So they are freeloaders, they are just taking advantage of the fact that there are actual paying players while giving nothing back.  I guess you could say they are giving the gift of themselves, but I tried doing this with my girlfriend one year for Valentine's day and she wasn't very happy with me. 

 

A cheat is anyone who purchases an item in a cash shop that is not a content unlock (like an expansion or something).  They are bypassing the game's system to get an advantage using cash.  If I'm playing baseball and some guy is paying to get performance enhancing drugs or for the umpire to look the other way it makes me angry.  Even if I'm on their team and they can make the argument that it "doesn't negatively effect me" it is still cheating and I'm trying to play a game here and have fun.

 

Now I know what you will probably say.  "All these things happen in P2P MMO's and have for over a decade".  I don't disagree, but it is still a problem.  I don't want the game or the company behind the game to give in and start being the drug dealer selling the steroids or opening the floodgates to spammers and trolls in a desparate attempt to get some money.  I mean there is a limited amount of space on servers and I'm not profit sharing, I just want a fun experience.

 

I get a better experience in a P2P MMORPG.  I played Vanguard (when it was p2p) and I played TERA they both had piss poor development cycles for new content.  Business models alone, Vanguard was sooooo much better due to p2p without half of the problems f2p has brought Tera.  And I hear TERA is like the "best f2p" model ever.  As soon as you log into the game you have to wade through a sea of twelve year olds masturbating while performing emotes in their stripped down female characters.  I could go on, but to me that's enough to show you what F2P and more specifically "freeloading" really did for the game.

Ah do you realize your fundamental error in this belief now that you have expressed it?  You give 2 options.

 

1. People are freeloaders because they refuse to use the cash shop, the reason why doesn't matter as this can be very subjective.

2, if they do use it (so as not to be "freeloaders") they are cheaters.

3. Unless they buy "content".  Like say in DDO you can buy adv packs.

What about f2p games that don't sell "content" but rather items like bank/inventory space unique mounts etc etc.

I mean I understand many cash shop are done very badly and offer p2w items but some people use these shops but do not buy the p2w items as they tend to be very costly.

There is often a 3rd faction.

I think you need to realize  that not all f2p players are "freeloaders" or "cheaters" , it's very sloppy thinking when you try to lump all people into certain groups based on personal prejudices.

 

Edit: your baseball game example is flawed because in baseball that would be considered cheating, the equivalent in a f2p mmo would be an exploit. Something the game allows for isn't technically a cheat.

 

Lets take a boxing example. The non cash shop users is training himself with limited funds where as the cash shop user has a much bigger budget and can afford a personal trainer and equipment for ideal training.

 

Neither are exploiting or cheating yet the one with more money clearly has an advantage..

 

That said I am quite happy the game will be p2p as long as they never ever introduce a cash shop.

 

 

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  Arcticnoon

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 146

6/20/13 4:06:33 PM#159
Originally posted by Kayo83
Originally posted by Moodsor
Originally posted by Ehllfhire

The game will still be f2p by a year in. Although fun, its an average clone game with nothing unique to it in an mmo setting. And yes I can confirm Im in the beta.

Game heads always say no f2p all the way up to f2p (looking at TSW for one)

So thats why FFXI is still sub based? Square Enix doesn't believe in the F2P model, but nice try.

Exactly. Never say never but until FFXI goes f2p im not even going to worry. There is very little chance, specially if its just within a year. Even Rift, whose self-published (much like FFXIV and WoW) and doesnt have a strong IP behind it, went 3 years with p2p before switching. Even so they had to go through 2 epic fail releases (EoN and Defiance) before they finally made the switch.

Sure, SE had some trouble with Tomb Raider (because they invested too much in it) but the game still sold really well despite profits coming up short.

Good points, but what I think we are all failing to remember is there is only one other company in the mmo market place like Square Enix and its Blizzard.

These two companies have so much money they arent worried about f2p short term profits. SE lost 150 million last year and is still putting money into FFXIV. They spent 3 million on 1.0s eight minute cg movie, ending the game forever. No other company can do that save Blizzard.

FFXI had a sub base o 500k for five straight years. No other game can say that except WoW. Its not crazy to think that FFXIV can do better. WIth a 750k sub base they are looking at more than 8 million a month. Money they dont have to pay back to any investors. To bet on them going f2p within a year is just ignorance. You are forgetting that the FF franchise sells. They have fans around the world. I have played every FF since FF7. I hated FF13, yet its still sold 10 million copies. Thats as many as Skyrim.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 781

6/20/13 4:12:45 PM#160
Originally posted by Arcticnoon
Originally posted by Kayo83
Originally posted by Moodsor
Originally posted by Ehllfhire

The game will still be f2p by a year in. Although fun, its an average clone game with nothing unique to it in an mmo setting. And yes I can confirm Im in the beta.

Game heads always say no f2p all the way up to f2p (looking at TSW for one)

So thats why FFXI is still sub based? Square Enix doesn't believe in the F2P model, but nice try.

Exactly. Never say never but until FFXI goes f2p im not even going to worry. There is very little chance, specially if its just within a year. Even Rift, whose self-published (much like FFXIV and WoW) and doesnt have a strong IP behind it, went 3 years with p2p before switching. Even so they had to go through 2 epic fail releases (EoN and Defiance) before they finally made the switch.

Sure, SE had some trouble with Tomb Raider (because they invested too much in it) but the game still sold really well despite profits coming up short.

Good points, but what I think we are all failing to remember is there is only one other company in the mmo market place like Square Enix and its Blizzard.

These two companies have so much money they arent worried about f2p short term profits. SE lost 150 million last year and is still putting money into FFXIV. They spent 3 million on 1.0s eight minute cg movie, ending the game forever. No other company can do that save Blizzard.

FFXI had a sub base o 500k for five straight years. No other game can say that except WoW. Its not crazy to think that FFXIV can do better. WIth a 750k sub base they are looking at more than 8 million a month. Money they dont have to pay back to any investors. To bet on them going f2p within a year is just ignorance. You are forgetting that the FF franchise sells. They have fans around the world. I have played every FF since FF7. I hated FF13, yet its still sold 10 million copies. Thats as many as Skyrim.

Aye I agree with this, I would like to inject I think for a company like SE it also about not losing face. I think much of the reboot is about that as well.

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