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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Please no DPS meters or mods

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165 posts found
  Ralstlin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/10
Posts: 243

6/19/13 4:12:33 PM#101

ohh nooo, they will see i am using a lvl 1 ring because i think is cuteeeeeee and my pendant give me +5 STR, i dont care if i am magee is beautifulllllllll Rotations? whats that! i love to use skills after some emote to express my angry at monsters!

 

Yes please, dps metter, examine and more to evade these leechers.

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

6/19/13 4:14:10 PM#102
Originally posted by itsTort
Originally posted by Alberel
Originally posted by itsTort

The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.

I know it's not the case for everyone, I know some just get agitated by players who spam DPS meters all day, but then again; if you take a look at the games that do have it, you don't even see it that much anymore anyways. Out of the past 6 or so months since I have been back to WoW, I have seen:

I'm sure a lot of people would love to see some evidence of that. I could quite as easily argue that the majority of people defending having DPS meters are wannabe elitist jerks that would hate to be deprived of a tool to put other players down... it works both ways.

My hating DPS meters has little to do with how much actual DPS anyone is doing and more to do with it encouraging every player to play for themself only and ignore teamwork if it helps them do more damage. I've seen it happen countless times and those players would not be obsessing over their damage so much if there wasn't such an easy way to tally it.

 

Okay, for starters, if you're going to quote and reply to someone, don't chop off half of their quote which responds directly to your question. I went ahead and fixed that for you, but that's just dumb. Second, you're absolutely 1000000000% accurate, many people who use DPS meters are elitists, what does that have to do with people fearing DPS meters because they aren't great players? That's like saying "I can't eat my dinner because I drew a smiley face on a sticky note." <-- Makes sense, right? 

 

If I am in a group of 25 people, and 5 of those people are preventing us from getting a boss down, I absolutely want to know who needs to be replaced. If your sense of fun is wiping on the same boss day in, day out, never making any progress, then more power to you. 

 

You made a completely unsubstantiated assertion, I made one in return. That was the point.

FYI you could just as easily have 5 people wiping your raid due to tunnel vision on the DPS meter causing them to endanger the group. I've seen it happen enough times to know it's more of an issue; you don't NEED the meter to know who isn't pulling their weight, it's usually blindingly obvious.

  Anslem

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 198

6/19/13 4:49:05 PM#103
Originally posted by rhavok
Originally posted by Keyh

People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them.  I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. 

 

 

As someone who likes to run and compete in races I can somewhat understand this.  I am very competitive against myself and I love the feeling of shaving a second or two off my 5k and 10k times.  So I can understand where you are coming from there and respect that.

I guess my concern is that they tend to shift focus the game from the community itself to the player instead.  I guess though that is more on the fault of the players though.  Perhaps my concern is more against the selfish elitists players that tend to use the meters and would rather call someone's post pointless and insult someone they don't even know for having a differing opinion than theirs rather than being constructive.

^ So well said. 

Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

  itsTort

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 127

6/19/13 4:53:21 PM#104
Originally posted by Alberel
Originally posted by itsTort
Originally posted by Alberel
Originally posted by itsTort

The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.

I know it's not the case for everyone, I know some just get agitated by players who spam DPS meters all day, but then again; if you take a look at the games that do have it, you don't even see it that much anymore anyways. Out of the past 6 or so months since I have been back to WoW, I have seen:

I'm sure a lot of people would love to see some evidence of that. I could quite as easily argue that the majority of people defending having DPS meters are wannabe elitist jerks that would hate to be deprived of a tool to put other players down... it works both ways.

My hating DPS meters has little to do with how much actual DPS anyone is doing and more to do with it encouraging every player to play for themself only and ignore teamwork if it helps them do more damage. I've seen it happen countless times and those players would not be obsessing over their damage so much if there wasn't such an easy way to tally it.

 

Okay, for starters, if you're going to quote and reply to someone, don't chop off half of their quote which responds directly to your question. I went ahead and fixed that for you, but that's just dumb. Second, you're absolutely 1000000000% accurate, many people who use DPS meters are elitists, what does that have to do with people fearing DPS meters because they aren't great players? That's like saying "I can't eat my dinner because I drew a smiley face on a sticky note." <-- Makes sense, right? 

 

If I am in a group of 25 people, and 5 of those people are preventing us from getting a boss down, I absolutely want to know who needs to be replaced. If your sense of fun is wiping on the same boss day in, day out, never making any progress, then more power to you. 

 

You made a completely unsubstantiated assertion, I made one in return. That was the point.

FYI you could just as easily have 5 people wiping your raid due to tunnel vision on the DPS meter causing them to endanger the group. I've seen it happen enough times to know it's more of an issue; you don't NEED the meter to know who isn't pulling their weight, it's usually blindingly obvious.

I actually made a statement of opinion based on my last 13 years of gaming experience. 

Sure, you could absolutely have someone wipe the group by going tunnel vision. That's not what this forum thread is about though, if you want to start a discussion about players who tunnel vision, please go ahead and start a new thread for that and I will gladly contribute. This thread however, is about the damage meters. 

  tokini

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 344

6/19/13 5:11:23 PM#105
Originally posted by Alberel
Originally posted by itsTort
Originally posted by Alberel
Originally posted by itsTort

The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.

I know it's not the case for everyone, I know some just get agitated by players who spam DPS meters all day, but then again; if you take a look at the games that do have it, you don't even see it that much anymore anyways. Out of the past 6 or so months since I have been back to WoW, I have seen:

I'm sure a lot of people would love to see some evidence of that. I could quite as easily argue that the majority of people defending having DPS meters are wannabe elitist jerks that would hate to be deprived of a tool to put other players down... it works both ways.

My hating DPS meters has little to do with how much actual DPS anyone is doing and more to do with it encouraging every player to play for themself only and ignore teamwork if it helps them do more damage. I've seen it happen countless times and those players would not be obsessing over their damage so much if there wasn't such an easy way to tally it.

 

Okay, for starters, if you're going to quote and reply to someone, don't chop off half of their quote which responds directly to your question. I went ahead and fixed that for you, but that's just dumb. Second, you're absolutely 1000000000% accurate, many people who use DPS meters are elitists, what does that have to do with people fearing DPS meters because they aren't great players? That's like saying "I can't eat my dinner because I drew a smiley face on a sticky note." <-- Makes sense, right? 

 

If I am in a group of 25 people, and 5 of those people are preventing us from getting a boss down, I absolutely want to know who needs to be replaced. If your sense of fun is wiping on the same boss day in, day out, never making any progress, then more power to you. 

 

You made a completely unsubstantiated assertion, I made one in return. That was the point.

FYI you could just as easily have 5 people wiping your raid due to tunnel vision on the DPS meter causing them to endanger the group. I've seen it happen enough times to know it's more of an issue; you don't NEED the meter to know who isn't pulling their weight, it's usually blindingly obvious.


seems you're just describing a bad player, not necessarily someone obsessed with dps. ive known those types, blown everything in the first 20 seconds, you see their damage skyrocket, then die to the first boss mechanic...usually cry about not getting a heal.

that sort would be dieing with or without a dps meter to 'distract' them.  luckily in my gamer life most of the best dpsers ive seen were also good at the game they played, and didnt die unless it was a wipe anyway... and yeah, some of them liked to brag at times.

 

but the blindingly obvious part at the end, yeah it is sometimes.  but how do you broach it, without evidence?  you bring it up, someone says 'im doing great'...you have nothing to refute them.  of course show them a parser and they probably get huffy about the fact you use a parser.

 

in the end, if they do allow them, you could always 'ban' them from whatever guild you create.

  Anslem

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 198

6/19/13 5:12:47 PM#106
Originally posted by Carnicide
Thanks for posting this, makes me really happy there will be Mods. To me that's what really separated WoW from other MMOs. I love having Mods for games AND DPS meters. I know the sensitive types hate this, but most of us like it, so deal with it. I'm also sick of the said "grown ups" stating they have a life and a job and bills in such that just want to enjoy the game. I work full time go to school full time for engineering, and work out. Oh and I have a girl friend oh my! Yet still I make time for MMOs and I like DPS meters shocking isn't it...... Jesus lay off this "I have a life crap" it's old. 

Hi there!

Perhaps you're mistaking the different priorities of the "grown ups" and yourself?  Maybe you like to excel at your class, learn the best and most efficient rotations, etc.  Others may just want to log in rather than read class guides. It doesn't meant they're better/worse... Just different.  That's the beauty of life - everyone's different.   People play MMOs for a vast variety of reasons. 

Also, I put the grown ups tag in quotes. I hate when people play the age card, on either end of the spectrum. 

In WoW I found the healing meter to be helpful so I could see when I was overhealing.  I am unsure how I'd heal now even in WoW without some of the mods/add ons. 

I remember some rogue in vanilla posting the DPS meter after every boss fight.  At least it lent to conversation rather than current WoW instances.  Last night the only words muttered were "hey dk, u can't stand in shit."  

What I infer and gather from the OP is that he doesn't want some douche canoe neglecting his role in the group just to top the DPS meters.

PS. You don't need to explain the happy balance you've struck with RL and WOW to defend your affinity to a damage meter on mods. It's ok that you like them, and would still be ok if you didn't win at RL while watching the DPS meter. 

Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

  Magiknight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 721

6/19/13 5:19:25 PM#107
No DPS meter please.
  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2029

6/19/13 5:35:19 PM#108
Originally posted by Alberel
Originally posted by itsTort
Originally posted by Alberel
Originally posted by itsTort

The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.

I know it's not the case for everyone, I know some just get agitated by players who spam DPS meters all day, but then again; if you take a look at the games that do have it, you don't even see it that much anymore anyways. Out of the past 6 or so months since I have been back to WoW, I have seen:

I'm sure a lot of people would love to see some evidence of that. I could quite as easily argue that the majority of people defending having DPS meters are wannabe elitist jerks that would hate to be deprived of a tool to put other players down... it works both ways.

My hating DPS meters has little to do with how much actual DPS anyone is doing and more to do with it encouraging every player to play for themself only and ignore teamwork if it helps them do more damage. I've seen it happen countless times and those players would not be obsessing over their damage so much if there wasn't such an easy way to tally it.

 

Okay, for starters, if you're going to quote and reply to someone, don't chop off half of their quote which responds directly to your question. I went ahead and fixed that for you, but that's just dumb. Second, you're absolutely 1000000000% accurate, many people who use DPS meters are elitists, what does that have to do with people fearing DPS meters because they aren't great players? That's like saying "I can't eat my dinner because I drew a smiley face on a sticky note." <-- Makes sense, right? 

 

If I am in a group of 25 people, and 5 of those people are preventing us from getting a boss down, I absolutely want to know who needs to be replaced. If your sense of fun is wiping on the same boss day in, day out, never making any progress, then more power to you. 

 

You made a completely unsubstantiated assertion, I made one in return. That was the point.

FYI you could just as easily have 5 people wiping your raid due to tunnel vision on the DPS meter causing them to endanger the group. I've seen it happen enough times to know it's more of an issue; you don't NEED the meter to know who isn't pulling their weight, it's usually blindingly obvious.

I'd say it's usually not obvious who is doing poor damage at all in most games.  In the 25 man setting described, where 15 or so players are damage dealers, it can be downright impossible to pinpoint who the weak damage links are without a tool like damage meters.  All you would be able to identify would be that your damage, as a group, is lacking.  

On the other hand, it's usually significantly easier to identify players who fail to execute some external mechanic, such as failing to move out of an aoe attack area or poison, or failing to pull a lever at the right time.

There are pros and cons to damage meters, for sure.  Let's not willingly be oblivious to their pros.   

  Akais

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/07
Posts: 267

6/19/13 5:50:17 PM#109

This thread has really derailed from where it started initially and we know meters will be coming in some form or fashion.

I stand by my assertion that a threat meter serves as a much more useful tool comparatively.

But I have little doubt that DPS meters will show themselves as well... And get posted by those poor souls that actually think that a DPS recap on content that isn't timed matters.

At the very least, this thread has highlighted to those fans of it that not everyone cares to see it and why.

Please exercise some consideration in it's use. Perhaps ask if the group is cool with getting the information posted.

 

 

 

 

  krys2k9

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 5

6/20/13 6:43:57 AM#110

http://ffxiv-app.com/

A parser and auto-translator is apparently available.  That was even faster than I expected! 

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1696

6/20/13 7:06:31 AM#111
Originally posted by rhavok

I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and  hopefully mods are off the table entirely.  A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring  for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.

 ...

Agree fully with you. One more reason i love so much Swtor fp and other end game content. 

  mrputts

Elite Member

Joined: 2/23/05
Posts: 173

6/20/13 7:25:57 AM#112
Originally posted by spikers14

Guns don't kill people and meters don't kill a game. 

I honestly cannot see a WoW community transporting itself to FFXIV. 

Best statement yet....

 

You got to be fucking kidding us. The WoW community is the Hallmark of the Internet. If it is on the web it is going to have ass-hats. If you give ass-hats a way to target people they will.

 

Mrputts

Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo

  Kayo83

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/13
Posts: 148

6/20/13 9:08:57 AM#113


Originally posted by itsTort
The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.

LOL! What a load. Ive never once had a problem with DPS yet I absolutely hate the drama that tool brings to PuGs especially. Every now and then you get some douche who starts harassing someone else not for 90% not for 10%, nor for 5%! Worst part? The run was going fine, no deaths, no wipes, until he opened his mouth. Many times by some dbag tank who everyone sides with because its another 20 minutes of queue time if he leaves. Bringing negativity to the entire group, wasting time that could be better spent by STFU and playing through.

So cut the crap. Maybe you only start your whining at -90% but most dont. Most not only do it at a much lower number but they do it in comparison to their own, to what they subjectively think someone elses DPS should be. Unless you'd like to link a developers reveal on what an expected minimum expected DPS is (which they designed the fight to be) on a boss on a class by class break down, there is no objective minimum DPS. The only time that tool is even REALLY necessary (and I say that lightly) is in Raids and personal use. Something that SE can easily limit in game to prevent the harassment that comes with it, at least with PuGs where its most common.


Originally posted by itsTort
As a very avid raider of WoW, TERA, AoC, Warhammer, etc, and knowing about AF armors/raids/etc in FF11, I really hope that there will be some type of DPS meter. 
I mean, I know that there will be a DPS parser, but I would be hoping for an in game add-on, to prevent alt-tabbing. I know many people just flat out don't care about how well they do, but I personally like to watch as I improve. I'm not sure why you would wish away a 100% optional feature, that affects you in no way what so ever, except, to show you if you are doing something wrong or not. 

Its funny how with all your super awesome extensive experiences with MMO's and raiding youre still so eager for a tool that only actually shows a fraction of what makes a good player. Not surprising though, as its common knowledge that this over dependence on DPS meters has people thinking that the only thing that matters now is what that "tool" says.

  Alexandrous

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 10

6/20/13 9:35:34 AM#114

There is nothing wrong with having dps meters.

People who want them like to compete and people who dont want them are most likely casual gamers who don't like to compete. It is what it is. But, don't think all mod users only care about having the HIGHEST DPS or HEALS.

Honestly, i think it is more impressive to have high DPS and be alive at the end of the fight, than have the HIGHEST dps and die mid fight. Don't assume that every mod user just facerolls and don't pay attention to surroundings, because that is not true.

Mods can show who can dish out the highest DPS and HEALS and still be able to mind their surroundings are the true ELITE players. IMO.

  Carnicide

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 197

6/20/13 9:44:26 AM#115
I wish I had an RL DPS meter......... Would make things much easier to follow.
  Keyh

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 141

6/20/13 9:57:00 AM#116
Originally posted by Kayo83

 


Originally posted by itsTort
The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.


LOL! What a load. Ive never once had a problem with DPS yet I absolutely hate the drama that tool brings to PuGs especially. Every now and then you get some douche who starts harassing someone else not for 90% not for 10%, nor for 5%! Worst part? The run was going fine, no deaths, no wipes, until he opened his mouth. Many times by some dbag tank who everyone sides with because its another 20 minutes of queue time if he leaves. Bringing negativity to the entire group, wasting time that could be better spent by STFU and playing through.

 

So cut the crap. Maybe you only start your whining at -90% but most dont. Most not only do it at a much lower number but they do it in comparison to their own, to what they subjectively think someone elses DPS should be. Unless you'd like to link a developers reveal on what an expected minimum expected DPS is (which they designed the fight to be) on a boss on a class by class break down, there is no objective minimum DPS. The only time that tool is even REALLY necessary (and I say that lightly) is in Raids and personal use. Something that SE can easily limit in game to prevent the harassment that comes with it, at least with PuGs where its most common.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

 

You're assertion that "most don't" is udder bullshit, or you just play with terrible people (not terrible players, terrible people). In my reasonably long time in playing MMOs, mainly EQ2 since launch, I have been in 3 groups where a person has been kicked based off of his performance on a parser. 1 of them was after wiping 3 times to the first boss of a dungeon, 1 of them was because he was only autoattacking, and 1 of them I kicked because he was ninja afking and fought in less than half of the fights and we were having a rough time because of it.

I'm not sure what game you're describing here (WoW I'm sure) but that is a community issue, not an issue with DPS meters. These people would be assholes in some other way if they didn't have DPS meters.

 


Originally posted by itsTort
As a very avid raider of WoW, TERA, AoC, Warhammer, etc, and knowing about AF armors/raids/etc in FF11, I really hope that there will be some type of DPS meter. 
I mean, I know that there will be a DPS parser, but I would be hoping for an in game add-on, to prevent alt-tabbing. I know many people just flat out don't care about how well they do, but I personally like to watch as I improve. I'm not sure why you would wish away a 100% optional feature, that affects you in no way what so ever, except, to show you if you are doing something wrong or not. 

 

Its funny how with all your super awesome extensive experiences with MMO's and raiding youre still so eager for a tool that only actually shows a fraction of what makes a good player. Not surprising though, as its common knowledge that this over dependence on DPS meters has people thinking that the only thing that matters now is what that "tool" says.

 

That's probably because it's a tool that shows the fraction of what makes a good player that is difficult to determine otherwise.

People who top the DPS meter at the expense of dying or pulling aggro are just as bad as those that do less damage than the healer.

 

There are bad players that are against DPS meters and there are bad players that are for DPS meters. They're bad in different ways (sometimes), but they're bad none-the-less.

There are also people that use DPS meters that are decent people and ones that are assholes. I realize that your experiences in whatever terrible community you were in  lean you towards being against DPS meters. However, I ensure you that DPS meters alone do not ruin communities. The People do.

 

  Anslem

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 198

6/20/13 10:18:04 AM#117
Originally posted by Carnicide
I wish I had an RL DPS meter......... Would make things much easier to follow.

Yes! 

Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

  Doomedfox

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/01/10
Posts: 696

6/20/13 10:27:23 AM#118

I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.

The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.

I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.

If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.

We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.

Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.

DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.

They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.

That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well. 

  svann

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 1632

6/20/13 10:28:11 AM#119
Maybe allow logging of personal information but not raidwide info.  That way dps meters would show you your dps but not everyone elses.  Dps meters can be useful to find out what works best, and also sometimes to determine when something isnt working as it should in the game.  In vanguard we had a panther illusion mask that was supposed to give 5% melee haste and it was bugged for 2 years without anyone realizing it till I checked it using a dps meter and found it was working in reverse.  It got fixed within 1 week.
  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3563

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

6/20/13 10:35:00 AM#120
Originally posted by Keyh

People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them.  I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. But I also don't think that people that don't play that way should be ostracized for their play style. Generally, as long as you're doing something in a group, I don't care, I know that that isn't the case with everyone, but if stuff is dying slower than normal, people are going to be able to tell and will call you out anyway.

 

Mods like the quest helper, anything with raid timers, etc though are terrible, because it turns into needing them in order to make any sort of progress in raids. Nothing third party should ever be necessary to complete a raid/dungeon.

Its this type of attitude that is responsible for many of us hating dps meters and the dog eat dog attitude that they foster.  Contrary to what some people appear to think, to many of us, this isn't some e peen competition, or a second job.  Its a source of entertainment, relaxation.  If I wanted to be on edge all the damn time, I'd go play some FFA full loot gank fest.

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