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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Interview with Yoshida on P2P decision

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172 posts found
  bizoux86

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 85

6/19/13 6:04:06 PM#41
Originally posted by Shauneepeak
Originally posted by MattTheHG
Originally posted by drivendawn
http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/      Really like this article.

Yoshida is the man!

It's a good move, indeed. You can tell that SE really wants this to be a quality MMO for people to play and enjoy, and for people working behind the scenes to get what they deserve.

I understand a lot of people don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, and complain about that idea, but the reality of it is.. if you want an MMO to last long and to be something that you actually want to play, then you're going to have to pay for it and invest in it.

Plus, $15 is not that much compared to other expenses we spend our money on... alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, happy meals... 

I don't use or buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, or happy meals... and $15 a month for a game is a lot nowadays that's $180 a year essentially 3-4 full priced games or more half than half the price of a game console. I could do $10 a month $120 is fine by me long as a game includes free expansions unlike WoW $15 a month+$ expansions was just stupid.

That is what I liked about Aion before it went F2P, the expansions were free for account holders.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4849

6/19/13 6:06:13 PM#42
Originally posted by FlawSGI

 I don't believe a payment model makes a game better or worse TBH. A lot of people appear to have the notion that F2P advocates are cheap and it is the $15 that they complain about, but if you actually stop attacking and listen to the arguments it's really about what they feel their money is worth and not the price of the sub. I don't like subs for the simple fact that few game have really been worth it to me. Then again, I detest the cash grabs that some F2P's use when making their cash shop decisions and limitations on gameplay. I'd rather pay a sub over the alternative.

 

While I like the article, I don't buy that steady revenue = better planning and more content. It sounds like a great justification for having a sub, but I haven't seen that it equates to a better overall product. WoW, IMO, was an outstanding game for years, yet they have managed to butcher that game and their updates don't come out any faster or any better than other games I have played. I know this is a very subjective example but this is my opinion on why I don't see sub equating to a better product. I will say that FFXI had some of the best bang for their buck when it came to expansions though. 

This ^

It's refreshing to see people who don't have their head in the sand.

There is literally no evidence to support the popular assumption that business model determines game quality. None. There have been great games in every business model, though p2p has a much larger pool to pull examples from. There's also been some crappy games in each business model.

Regardless of how the article tries to spin this business decision, the truth is that SE doesn't have much of a choice. They took a massive financial risk in rebooting FFXIV. So far it looks like it might pay off, but they literally cannot afford another massive gamble by making it free2play. The best they can do in that regard is to have public betas (like they are doing now), and use that as a method to have people experience the new game. However, once it's actually launched, they'll need to start recooping expenses ASAP.

If anything, the game might actually be more at risk to making lackluster / unfavorable changes, because Sony will be looking to make up the money it's lost. If it doesn't, things could go very badly for this game.

  Postcards

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/12
Posts: 105

6/19/13 6:15:37 PM#43
I don't care if it's F2P or P2P as long as the game is good.
  Murugan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1572

6/19/13 6:17:13 PM#44
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by FlawSGI

 I don't believe a payment model makes a game better or worse TBH. A lot of people appear to have the notion that F2P advocates are cheap and it is the $15 that they complain about, but if you actually stop attacking and listen to the arguments it's really about what they feel their money is worth and not the price of the sub. I don't like subs for the simple fact that few game have really been worth it to me. Then again, I detest the cash grabs that some F2P's use when making their cash shop decisions and limitations on gameplay. I'd rather pay a sub over the alternative.

 

While I like the article, I don't buy that steady revenue = better planning and more content. It sounds like a great justification for having a sub, but I haven't seen that it equates to a better overall product. WoW, IMO, was an outstanding game for years, yet they have managed to butcher that game and their updates don't come out any faster or any better than other games I have played. I know this is a very subjective example but this is my opinion on why I don't see sub equating to a better product. I will say that FFXI had some of the best bang for their buck when it came to expansions though. 

This ^

It's refreshing to see people who don't have their head in the sand.

There is literally no evidence to support the popular assumption that business model determines game quality. None. There have been great games in every business model, though p2p has a much larger pool to pull examples from. There's also been some crappy games in each business model.

Regardless of how the article tries to spin this business decision, the truth is that SE doesn't have much of a choice. They took a massive financial risk in rebooting FFXIV. So far it looks like it might pay off, but they literally cannot afford another massive gamble by making it free2play. The best they can do in that regard is to have public betas (like they are doing now), and use that as a method to have people experience the new game. However, once it's actually launched, they'll need to start recooping expenses ASAP.

If anything, the game might actually be more at risk to making lackluster / unfavorable changes, because Sony will be looking to make up the money it's lost. If it doesn't, things could go very badly for this game.

I'm not trolling you, but can you give me an example of a F2P or B2P that has launched quality long term content updates, say equal to games like WoW or FFXI's updates?  I realize that is subjective, but I'll admit I only have followed the F2P conversions after they dropped the subscriptions and it seemed to me like all of them had a huge drop in content updates (but plenty of cash shop stuff was added).  I won't belittle your opinion if I disagree.

 

I am however aware that there can be bad P2P games, I have played SOE MMO's more than that of any other publisher, and they notoriously did not provide adequate updates for their games.  Both EQ2 when I played, and really hideously Vanguard which they left to rot and die while all of the playerbase paid every single month a full price subscription.  Despicable businesses exist in every business model.  SOE is no better now as a F2P publisher than they were when they drove many fans away with their greedy stagnation of properties they controlled.

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  Ehllfhire

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 591

Playing the FFXIV 2.0 Demo

6/19/13 6:36:01 PM#45
The game will go f2p, not because its bad, but because its average. There is nothing that isnt a direct clone of wow or other games like GW2. The game while tons of fun, is super easy mode. I plan on subbing, but it will go f2p as I cant see it selling over 150k copies.

Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
PS3

  F2Plague

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/13
Posts: 51

6/19/13 6:44:28 PM#46
A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.
  Ehllfhire

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 591

Playing the FFXIV 2.0 Demo

6/19/13 6:45:33 PM#47
Originally posted by F2Plague
A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.

So we can count on you leaving when it goes f2p?

Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
PS3

  Murugan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1572

6/19/13 6:48:33 PM#48
Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Originally posted by F2Plague
A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.

So we can count on you leaving when it goes f2p?

I will can we count on you to stop trolling now that you have made your prediction of the game only selling 150k copies and going f2p in under a year.  I'll see you in a year, and we'll see who is right.

 

I'm feeling pretty good coming from the past two years playing this game without it going f2p, but I'm sure you know something I don't.  That is why you are my #1  source for rectally recovered online message board predictions.

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  F2Plague

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/13
Posts: 51

6/19/13 6:50:42 PM#49
Indeed. Let me ask you a question though. Who are you? Do you analyze market data for a living? Do you work for square enix? What makes you the great all knowing f2p guru? You don't know shit, you like to pretend you do. But you're just playing silly guessing games trying to upset the people who are genuinely looking forward to this game.. Sad.
  Ehllfhire

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 591

Playing the FFXIV 2.0 Demo

6/19/13 6:54:17 PM#50
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Originally posted by F2Plague
A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.

So we can count on you leaving when it goes f2p?

I will can we count on you to stop trolling now that you have made your prediction of the game only selling 150k copies and going f2p in under a year.  I'll see you in a year, and we'll see who is right.

 

I'm feeling pretty good coming from the past two years playing this game without it going f2p, but I'm sure you know something I don't.  That is why you are my #1  source for rectally recovered online message board predictions.

LOL you do realize that FFXIV was f2p for over a year, and then shut down after having subs for a year. Plus, I never said anything bad about the game. Lets be realistic though, while fun, its wow clone #1079 and thats why it will end up f2p eventually

Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
PS3

  Kayo83

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/13
Posts: 148

6/19/13 6:56:22 PM#51
Originally posted by Shauneepeak
Originally posted by MattTheHG
Originally posted by drivendawn
http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/      Really like this article.

Yoshida is the man!

It's a good move, indeed. You can tell that SE really wants this to be a quality MMO for people to play and enjoy, and for people working behind the scenes to get what they deserve.

I understand a lot of people don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, and complain about that idea, but the reality of it is.. if you want an MMO to last long and to be something that you actually want to play, then you're going to have to pay for it and invest in it.

Plus, $15 is not that much compared to other expenses we spend our money on... alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, happy meals... 

I don't use or buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, or happy meals... and $15 a month for a game is a lot nowadays that's $180 a year essentially 3-4 full priced games or more half than half the price of a game console. I could do $10 a month $120 is fine by me long as a game includes free expansions unlike WoW $15 a month+$ expansions was just stupid.

So you dont go to the movies either? Eat out more than 2-3 times a month? Hope not ... Also I dont know how long you can go playing the same game over and over but 3-4 full priced games can easily be beaten and completed in  2 months tops. Only game Ive gotten a better deal than an MMO so far has been an Elder Scrolls game. How much does the usual DLC go for now-a-days? $10-$20? Thats 1/3 price of a full game for maybe 4-5 more hours of content? 45 minutes if we're talking an EA game. You have Xbox Live Gold?

Yeah if I played other games nearly as much as ive played MMO's id be buying a new game every month.

P.S: $7 an hour paycheck is a lot nowadays. Thats over half a million dollars before I retire! Thats like 2 brand new Ferrari's! See what I did there? You can make any minuscule amount seem like a lot when you multiply it enough.

  drivendawn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 1025

 
OP  6/19/13 6:57:24 PM#52
Originally posted by Ehllfhire
The game will go f2p, not because its bad, but because its average. There is nothing that isnt a direct clone of wow or other games like GW2. The game while tons of fun, is super easy mode. I plan on subbing, but it will go f2p as I cant see it selling over 150k copies.

LOOOLLLL, turns and walks away while pointing and still laughing at Ehllfhire. That was me RPing my response to this post.

  F2Plague

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/13
Posts: 51

6/19/13 7:02:13 PM#53
Actually it was B2P, you had to actually pay something in order to play. Just because it went f2p temporarily after being not well received doesn't mean anything. They did that for the customers, just like they remade it for the customers.
  Murugan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1572

6/19/13 7:04:21 PM#54
Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Originally posted by F2Plague
A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.

So we can count on you leaving when it goes f2p?

I will can we count on you to stop trolling now that you have made your prediction of the game only selling 150k copies and going f2p in under a year.  I'll see you in a year, and we'll see who is right.

 

I'm feeling pretty good coming from the past two years playing this game without it going f2p, but I'm sure you know something I don't.  That is why you are my #1  source for rectally recovered online message board predictions.

LOL you do realize that FFXIV was f2p for over a year, and then shut down after having subs for a year. Plus, I never said anything bad about the game. Lets be realistic though, while fun, its wow clone #1079 and thats why it will end up f2p eventually

Do you copy and paste your trolling posts here and on other sites, or have you just settled on "wow clone #1079" as your zinger of choice.]

 

I'm curious.  I get it you love the game, but you are also just smarter than everyone else and can see it for also being nothing worth paying for.  That's great I think you should take your show on the road, and I wish you a lot of luck.  Anyways I'm gonna stop being baited here and remind myself that somewhere someone is probably posting a picture of a kitten they stomped to death, so I shouldn't get so hung up on what random people post on a gaming forum about the "supposed doom" of a video game I play.

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  F2Plague

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/13
Posts: 51

6/19/13 7:04:39 PM#55
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Ehllfhire
The game will go f2p, not because its bad, but because its average. There is nothing that isnt a direct clone of wow or other games like GW2. The game while tons of fun, is super easy mode. I plan on subbing, but it will go f2p as I cant see it selling over 150k copies.

LOOOLLLL, turns and walks away while pointing and still laughing at Ehllfhire. That was me RPing my response to this post.

LOL that was good.

  MattTheHG

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 31

6/19/13 7:38:28 PM#56
Originally posted by Shauneepeak
Originally posted by MattTheHG
Originally posted by drivendawn
http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/      Really like this article.

Yoshida is the man!

It's a good move, indeed. You can tell that SE really wants this to be a quality MMO for people to play and enjoy, and for people working behind the scenes to get what they deserve.

I understand a lot of people don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, and complain about that idea, but the reality of it is.. if you want an MMO to last long and to be something that you actually want to play, then you're going to have to pay for it and invest in it.

Plus, $15 is not that much compared to other expenses we spend our money on... alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, happy meals... 

I don't use or buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, or happy meals... and $15 a month for a game is a lot nowadays that's $180 a year essentially 3-4 full priced games or more half than half the price of a game console. I could do $10 a month $120 is fine by me long as a game includes free expansions unlike WoW $15 a month+$ expansions was just stupid.

I agree that $ expansions are dumb while paying the sub-price, but $15 a month is nothing compared to the bills and other stuff I pay for within a month especially gas and transportation. And if it's a good game, and it makes me happy then I'll pay the $15 to support  FFXIV and SE.

But if you think that's a lot and doesn't fit your budget, then you don't have to play the game if you don't think it's worth it. Whatever you do with your money is all you. You can buy your 3-4 games, or half a console.

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2365

First came pride, then envy.

6/19/13 8:04:48 PM#57
Originally posted by FlawSGI

 I don't believe a payment model makes a game better or worse TBH. A lot of people appear to have the notion that F2P advocates are cheap and it is the $15 that they complain about, but if you actually stop attacking and listen to the arguments it's really about what they feel their money is worth and not the price of the sub. I don't like subs for the simple fact that few game have really been worth it to me. Then again, I detest the cash grabs that some F2P's use when making their cash shop decisions and limitations on gameplay. I'd rather pay a sub over the alternative.

 

While I like the article, I don't buy that steady revenue = better planning and more content. It sounds like a great justification for having a sub, but I haven't seen that it equates to a better overall product. WoW, IMO, was an outstanding game for years, yet they have managed to butcher that game and their updates don't come out any faster or any better than other games I have played. I know this is a very subjective example but this is my opinion on why I don't see sub equating to a better product. I will say that FFXI had some of the best bang for their buck when it came to expansions though. 

I agree with this.  That's what i was thinking when i read that interview.  He's trying to justify that a sub model is going to be a better product.  The problem with this argument though, is that there was a reason these MMOs lost players, and that's because it's not worth the value.

When they create sub-par MMOs, and just clones in general, they should expect that players aren't going to stick around, which in turn means less money per month... which means a smaller staff... which means less content and few updates.  Swtor is the prime example.  Massive layoffs, and a half-assed "expansion".  It wasn't because of F2P though.  It was because of the game.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 3188

I actually still like MMORPGs

6/19/13 8:15:58 PM#58

He's speaking of investors and not strictly companies owned by other larger companies. For instance, was Rift self funded by Trion? I find it hard to believe that any new studio could pull off a massive undertaking like Rift without some kind of outside investment which ultimately expects a quick return.

His point that they are their own company with their own money and do things their own way is very valid. And though I know little of Blizzard's corporate structure as far as who they have to report to it's been apparent for decades that they are able to take their time and do things the way they want to do them. Something very very few developer companies have the option of doing. This is the point he was making.

  FlawSGI

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 1431

All of history is a lie. The truth depends on who does the listening, and who does the telling...

6/19/13 8:16:07 PM#59
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by FlawSGI

I'm not trolling you, but can you give me an example of a F2P or B2P that has launched quality long term content updates, say equal to games like WoW or FFXI's updates?  I realize that is subjective, but I'll admit I only have followed the F2P conversions after they dropped the subscriptions and it seemed to me like all of them had a huge drop in content updates (but plenty of cash shop stuff was added).  I won't belittle your opinion if I disagree.

 

I am however aware that there can be bad P2P games, I have played SOE MMO's more than that of any other publisher, and they notoriously did not provide adequate updates for their games.  Both EQ2 when I played, and really hideously Vanguard which they left to rot and die while all of the playerbase paid every single month a full price subscription.  Despicable businesses exist in every business model.  SOE is no better now as a F2P publisher than they were when they drove many fans away with their greedy stagnation of properties they controlled.

 This is actually a good question and one I personally cannot answer because I do not frequent the F2P scene all that much. At the same time I am not a F2P proponent because I can say that a majority of the ones I did try were very short stints. In my personal experience, GW2 is the only B2P MMO and I thought it was a great game and can still prove that a sub isn't necessary for content to continue. I am aware that many do not care for the game and I found myself bored after a while because of the design decisions. But I am not as quick to try to discredit the games lost appeal to the fact that it isn't a P2P although others clearly would. I see that as design decisions (lack of things to do once you 100% the map, temporary content, and lack of roles for me personally).

 

As to whether or not a F2P can put out steady content on par with subs, I honestly don't play any enough to know but I imagine they also want to keep people playing and playing just like a sub based game. They just try to earn revenue in a different way. I personally thought FFXIV was a fun experience and I like that they aren't going with the normal $15 a month so I have no problem paying the sub until the game loses its appeal. I would rather that is a long stay but these days I won't get my hopes up.

RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  ElRenmazuo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4319

6/19/13 8:20:25 PM#60
At least with subs the devs have a better idea of how much money they will make and knowing is half the battle which can make a difference on the quality of the content they can make by planning ahead instead of worrying about what they can make that would have a good chance of selling in a cash shop.  And the fact that all players know everyone else is on equal ground when it comes to access to the games contents and that in it self is a quality feeling.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/262c40940b3181ade1001120dd379aaa/tumblr_nfrzn853rR1rz64nto6_r1_400.gif

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