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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Please no DPS meters or mods

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165 posts found
  User Deleted
6/18/13 8:19:46 PM#21

@OP

They already built in Mods directly into the game like an Aggro Mod and a DPS Meter.  The issue is the DPS Meter means JACK in FFXIV because of the Limit Breaks.  So what if you are doing 199,999 DPS if you are suppost to hit your limit break at a certain point during the fight your 199,999 DPS means nothing because its a wipe.  Also so far none of the fights that I have seen have enrage times so DPS also means nothing.  Another factor is this, if DPS is not watching their aggro they will pull if they are going full out.  If they pull the tank does not have the ability to pull your full on DPS back from the boss and guess what your 199,999 means nothing because your dead.  Also if you are going full out on the fight and are not paying attention to your mana or your TP you might as well walk away from the fight because your DPS will go through the floor.

Yoshi-P and his team are making a game where DPS and Resource Management go hand and hand.  You will need to be steady DPS most of the time and know when you need to burst.  Also with no talent builds or anything like that all DPSers should be about the same and the combos that players can throw will be based off the players not off DPS charts.  

  Mithrandolir

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 1712

Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft' might win, by fearing to attempt

6/18/13 8:20:11 PM#22

I use to be anti-meters of any sort, mainly because I hate when a mmorpg becomes a focus of numbers for the community. But then I realized that as long as a game has a healthy community, there's room for everyone. I generally end up in guilds of like minded folks who are out to explore and enjoy the ambiance of a virtual world, and we don't bother the numbers folks, nor do they bother us. I learn my class, I pull my weight, I never ask for anything and I respect others at all times. 

I may never have the highest DPS or the most HP's healed, etc... and the folks who care about that will likely not end up playing with me. But for the friends that I do make along the way, I will be loyal, I'll play my best, I'll never steal from you or take advantage of you, and in the end I will do anything I can to help make it a fun experience for others. And another thing I will never do is slack, I may not use a meter but nobody who does has ever bitched at me either. 

Today I have no issue with people using meters. I don't prefer to use them, and if that makes me a baddie then so be it :) To each their own, I say.

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1243

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

6/18/13 8:21:17 PM#23
Originally posted by Alberel
Part of the problem with DPS meters is the fact that the DPS classes are typically allowed to pump out the highest DPS they can unchecked. If ARR works as I expect it to that won't always be possible here... the UI is actually fitted with warnings for when you're going to pull hate off the tank which tells me the DPS classes are going to have to learn to hold back...

 

Indeed.  We also saw some strange things last beta whereby a group agrees the gladiator is the main tank, but the MRD kept on doing the AoE Threat attack simply because "it did the most damage".   Then he got mad when the gladiator since he couldn't hold aggro (and had no tools to go against an AoE attack that did damage and had increased emnity).  The MRD said he was just doing his job in getting that extra 20% damage or whatever and he wasn't in the fault.

 

This is what many call the "WoW mentality" in that they apply WoW to every game they come across, and see WoW in every game they partake in.  They also assume all systems work like WoW.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Kayo83

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/13
Posts: 148

6/18/13 8:37:27 PM#24
I dont mind some mods, like it or not they help and are a good investment to any MMO. They let players customize their gameplay experience more to their taste and bring in their own community of modders. Both promote the game. Not only that, but a mod can have other mod developers fix a problem or frustration that a players have (some who would otherwise quit), for free! Many of those WoW mods were so popular that Blizzard ended up putting it in the game. In fact im actually surprised that Yoshi hasnt put it in yet.

DPS meters, and mods like Gearscore however dont help at all. I agree, theyre detrimental to others more than they help. They should definitely keep the ability to create mods like those out. One of the few things SWTOR did right was keeping the DPS meters personal so players can work on their rotations, but no one could run their mouths at someone else because they werent doing 50k DPS.
  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1732

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

6/18/13 8:41:55 PM#25

We talking about meters in game or parsers?

XI had parsers and I'm sure XIV will as well, as long as there's a combat log.

  Shrilly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 363

6/18/13 8:42:23 PM#26
Originally posted by BadSpock

Amen.

Mods in WoW allowed raiders to up their game considerably, which meant Blizzard had to design more and more complicated fights.

Sounds good right?

Well it was at first - but then they really couldn't add any more complexity, so they started just making fights resemble a dance number to memorize steps more than an MMORPG raid boss.

Once these mods became required in order to know the dance moves, Blizzard had to start making the bosses telegraph their dance moves all on their own - which actually made things even easier.

It's just a downward spiral.

Anyone who played WoW for a while knows what GearScore and Quest Helper and all those kinds of mods led to.

Keep non-cosmetic mods out of MMO's please.

 

AMEN i really can't put it into better words than this man right here

  InsaneDalek

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 123

EXTERMINATE!

6/18/13 8:42:38 PM#27
Originally posted by Xilfie

If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class.  Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.

 

As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!

Hey, I know you! You're the hybrid class with a DPS spec who won't heal yourself, or toss out a heal, CC, or cleanse if you see the main healer is having a bit of trouble for a moment. After all, damage is so much more important than any sort of teamwork, right?

Or perhaps you're the guy who stands in the fire, then yells at the healer when you die because you didn't want to lose your 'top spot' in the meters.

Then again you could be the person who constantly pulls threat off the tank early on in the fight, before aggro can be established. Or even afterwards for that matter, buy using all your heavy hitting abilities because 'OH NOES I DROPPED TO THE #2 SLOT!!'

Well, rest assured that no matter which one of these people you are, you're the type of gamer who can always be found on my ignore list.

It's a sad day indeed when a family is too afraid of reprisals to publicly thank somebody for saving their lives.

  NetSage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1014

6/18/13 8:46:20 PM#28
I love mods but never liked DPS meters :P.  But, this is mainly because of stupid design decisions imo.  Like multiple bag windows(especially at lower levels when you have really small bags) it's just a pain the ass to deal with compared to one large one.
  Akais

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/07
Posts: 268

6/18/13 8:46:53 PM#29
Originally posted by Betaguy
I hope there is some sort of mods, I hate guildies riding coat tails of others who play hard while they do nothing to contribute but more strain and collect phat lootz. Mods help cut the fat.

I'm typically ambivalent about mods in MMO's. They highlight slackers but also give a spotlight to some players whose attitudes don't really need another one.

I can see where a threat meter might be helpful, but not a DPS meter.

Some of the comments from Yoshi P. seem to be centered around the concept of threat more so than damage.

This is a bit more fair to me as in FF the holy trinity is typically in play with off healers buffing and debuffing and some DPS classes moving threat onto the tank to help hold aggro. I don't know if threat will be able to be moved like it was in FFXI, but Mobs being very sensitive to changes in threat has been a consistent in the FF series with more of it generated by taunts,healing/buffing/debuffing than pure dps.

One of the things I noticed from Japanese players in FFXI was that the team concept was important and NA players were viewed as rude due to self serving play habits.

This would lead me to think that a DPS meter would be less than useful for conventional use other than to give some people that ridiculous spotlight they don't need.

Tanks don't need it, their performance is more easily judged by the number of people who died before him.

Healers don't need it as determined by the number of people who died at all.

Unless a DPS is topping a DPS meter while staying steady/low on a Threat meter they are more of a liability than an asset IMO.

 

  jayvierl

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/09
Posts: 33

6/18/13 8:51:40 PM#30

WoW!. Another person afraid of competition. 

I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.

Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about. 

If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.

  Br3akingDawn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/01/11
Posts: 1320

6/18/13 8:54:39 PM#31
If its there cool, If its not, no big deal. Never had a problem with it when it was introduced though, actually thought it was nice to see myself improve upon my own dps or even healing but i guess it got to a point were it was a problem and used to determine who sucked or lack a certain skill or gear. 

  rhavok

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/08
Posts: 116

 
OP  6/18/13 8:56:16 PM#32

Thanks for great replies guys, this is easing my concern a little bit.  I relate to a lot of Yaevin has said. My first MMO was FFXI and I was drawn to it because I am huge FF fan in general.  I went from that WoW because I enjoyed the warcraft series and I had friends tell me how awesome it was.  I picked it up in December 2004 and played there up until WotLK which was pretty much when the game stopped being fun for me and became nothing but a numbers game.

Learning your rotation to keep the highest dps.  "LFM VoA, must bring 3.5k dps or a certains gearscore."  And while I did that and researched rotations and number crunched I realized I wasn't having fun anymore.  I felt like the game shifted from a group focus to a single player focus.  It became more of a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out,"  In addition it felt like it became a game of efficiency rather than one of fun.  "Do this as quickly as possible so we can finish this heroic in twenty minutes and get into another one.  I need 300 more points for a new item."  Eventually I realized that is not how I wanted to enjoy the game.  For me it was a very false sense of accomplishment.

While I have fond memories of vanilla WoW and TBC, my favorite times have been in FFXI, running away from Goblin trains, running to Jeuno while your home point was in Windurst and fearing for your life every time you saw a mob, and even simply thinks like making juice for my summoner friend in between pulls in Yhoator.  I have a lot of high hopes that FFXIV will provide the same experience in a way and the beta really has me excited for the launch.

Perhaps I place more blame on certain mods than I should which is something this thread has made me realize.  I guess the real concern is a shift in community where it becomes a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out" as I mentioned previously.

  Gaoxin

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 196

6/18/13 8:59:59 PM#33
How else do you want to accuratly theory craft and see when someone is afk/sleeping in a raid/dungeon?
  garr71

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 1

6/18/13 9:01:23 PM#34

Why oh why does every single mmo launch we have this same discussion... Mods are great addition to games, so are dps meters, what makes them bad is the people behind them. I love addons to customize my game, i love to know if i'm doing my job (reffering to dps meters not just for dps but for stuff like healing done/dmg recieved etc) if my rotations are good etc...

Some people in my opinion need to just understand just as there are casual players that don't even pay attention to their skills tooltips there are others that do, and like the number crunching and theorycrafting of a game. Remember it is an mmorpg, its multiplayer, your poor performance can and will affect other people, witch is what i hate and the reason i use this tools to make my self better.

My point is we live with other people in the world, and we are playing an mmorpg, yes wow made a whole generation of snobs entitled people, the solution is imo, find a middle ground, if you hate the addons, dmg metters etc, find a linkshell with same likes, join it and play with people that like that same playstyle. 

I hope you understand that i do not mean you are "wrong" for not wanting these tools, nor i,m against the way you want to play the game you pay for, just understand now everyone is equal or view competition equally etc...

Just really tired of reading this in all mmo's that came out after WoW.

  armadius

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 5

6/18/13 9:01:53 PM#35

dps meters have been around since launch of wow so saying dps meters is what killed wow is wrong. 

wow still has 8 millino people and what has decreased wows numbers imo is Looking for raid and same lock outs for 10/25 man with same loot. Wow is trying to tend to all the lame casual players who cry all day. Wow is just gonna coast as long as they can till they release there next big mmo. Meters have very little to do with wow's population

  Br3akingDawn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/01/11
Posts: 1320

6/18/13 9:07:07 PM#36
Ok who honestly in here have low dps or gear score and hate the dps meter?

  Akais

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/07
Posts: 268

6/18/13 9:08:15 PM#37
Originally posted by jayvierl

WoW!. Another person afraid of competition. 

I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.

Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about. 

If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.

I don't tend to play DPS so I don't worry about competition.  I tend to tank or heal/buff/debuff as DPS is boring.

My experience in MMO's has been that DPS is easily found and typically more easily replaced. Historically, I would let them snag the aggro and die while not rezzing or tell the healer not to after a couple of quiet warnings not to be overzealous. I have never found one other member in any group I was in with an issue with that stance.

I don't expect I ever will.

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1243

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

6/18/13 9:08:36 PM#38
Originally posted by armadius

dps meters have been around since launch of wow so saying dps meters is what killed wow is wrong. 

wow still has 8 millino people and what has decreased wows numbers imo is Looking for raid and same lock outs for 10/25 man with same loot. Wow is trying to tend to all the lame casual players who cry all day. Wow is just gonna coast as long as they can till they release there next big mmo. Meters have very little to do with wow's population

 

They were not common or well known until sometime during Wrath.  Back then utility was still king, especially with Buffadins who just auto attacked and individually buffed each person with their blessings, judged enemies to give raid wide benefits on those who attack those enemies, and throw up the occassional heal.  This was common place for most classes, and try as Blizzard might to keep on implimenting more of these (such as the rogue's old utilities), it was always met with "this hurts our over all damage according to our meters) and they were left out of raid slots for a long while.

 

I know people who got their Tier 3 sets, who say they never used any type of damage meter in Vanilla and question it's existence then.  That just shows you the change that occurred once such things became mainstream.

 

Edit:  As was said after this post, they even kicked people who said they had it since they caused more wipes than they were worth as they only focused on their own damage and not the common good.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  rhavok

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/08
Posts: 116

 
OP  6/18/13 9:11:01 PM#39
Originally posted by jayvierl

WoW!. Another person afraid of competition. 

I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.

Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about. 

If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.

 

I am not sure if this is directed at me, but I have no fear of competition.  If you play an MMO to compete that is fine, but not every one plays a game for the same reason you do.  I feel no desire to compete with others in an MMO.  My goal when I log in is to play with some friends, make some new friends, group up and go have a good time.  I am that guy that will pass on a drop when it is an upgrade for me because it is a slightly better upgrade for someone else.  My character having the absolute best gear, spec, or whatever is not my primary concern.

Don't get me wrong, I will learn how to play my class so I can perform well enough that we succeed.  I tank or heal most of the time and very rarely do people complain when I play either role.  In fact some people have said I am the best healer they have had.  But that is not why I play an MMO.

I mentioned earlier that I like to run, I run as a way to compete against myself and better myself.  The first time I got my 5k time under 25 minutes was the best feeling in the world for me, then when it dropped below 20 it was an even better feeling.  Some people run for other reasons.  I don't try to force my mentality of running upon them or tell them they are bad at running because they don't enjoy it the way I enjoy it.

If you get that same enjoyment from edging up your DPS up that is fine, more power to you and it makes me want you to have a way to do that then.  I have said that perhaps I made an incorrect judgement against the mods themselves when the negativity falls to the player themselves. (I think people are reading my first post and just hitting reply)  

My primary fear is that the community will shift into something selfish.

  User Deleted
6/18/13 9:12:42 PM#40
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by armadius

dps meters have been around since launch of wow so saying dps meters is what killed wow is wrong. 

wow still has 8 millino people and what has decreased wows numbers imo is Looking for raid and same lock outs for 10/25 man with same loot. Wow is trying to tend to all the lame casual players who cry all day. Wow is just gonna coast as long as they can till they release there next big mmo. Meters have very little to do with wow's population

 

They were not common or well known until sometime during Wrath.  Back then utility was still king, especially with Buffadins who just auto attacked and individually buffed each person with their blessings, judged enemies to give raid wide benefits on those who attack those enemies, and throw up the occassional heal.  This was common place for most classes, and try as Blizzard might to keep on implimenting more of these (such as the rogue's old utilities), it was always met with "this hurts our over all damage according to our meters) and they were left out of raid slots for a long while.

 

I know people who got their Tier 3 sets, who say they never used any type of damage meter in Vanilla and question it's existence then.  That just shows you the change that occurred once such things became mainstream.

I too know a few people who were in T3 and didnt use DPS Meters.  Most of the people who were the competition types on the DPS meters during Vanilla were well known on a server and never found a decent guild because often they caused more wipes than their DPS was worth.  Just like FFXIV will be.  DPS can be high however if you pull aggro you will die, if you dont know when to use your Limit break you will wipe the raid, and if you worry about the DPS meter that much to be top dog you will run out of mana or TP then be useless the rest of the fight.  Thats the way the game is designed.

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