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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMORPG combat is very stale

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105 posts found
  Arakazi

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/09
Posts: 864

6/12/13 7:41:45 PM#41
In a lot of MMOs I feel like an observer because I am so detached from the combat. I've been playing a bit of Tera again to pass time, and I have enjoyed the action combat but dislike the community. However I do miss playing a combat system like Assassins creed or the Withcher.... games with collision detection, good animation and actual physics!!

<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/11.jpg></a></p>RL][/CENTER]

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/12/13 11:21:12 PM#42
I can't help but feel that many of the people here saying things are stale are just advocating a different game rather than actually looking for something that doesn't already exist.
  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/13/13 1:40:07 AM#43

I have to agree with the OP. Innovation in this area is pretty lacking. An earlier post referenced Pen and Paper RPGs with their dice rolls, and I think that there is nothing keeping MMORPGs to that standard anymore, so the turn-based combat needs to go too.

A third-person version of Chivalry (I used the 3rd person view in that game by preference) combat would be fantastic. Just add some durability so that T2K is longer, and you could have epic fights as long as there was collision and facing was important. With T2K slower, or with other mitigation abilities added, it wouldn't need to be super twitchy.

Just a thought.  

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/13/13 2:05:58 AM#44
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Piechunks

 

You are jaded, you should stop playing games altogether.

 

You will never find another MMO that you enjoy long term EVER.  Just like the sandbox nutjobs you will roam these forums for a decade flaming the current market and holding up some fantastical belief that a new game will BLOW YOU AWAY with its awesome combat features.

 

People who enjoy games play them for the entire package not one particular THEORY on a feature which only encompasses part of the experience.  Those of us that are real gamers have played countless games that did not have 100% ideal systems as if we had designed them ourselves, and yet we still had great fun and memorable experiences playing them.

 

I feel sorry for people like you and many others on this forum.  Your standards make it impossible for you to enjoy gaming now or ever, and you are kind of a bore to be around and listen to frankly.

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  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/13/13 2:51:00 AM#45
nvm

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 733

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

6/13/13 4:04:26 AM#46
Originally posted by Murugan
Originally posted by Piechunks

Like 2000-1998ish stale. So fucking stale that you could break your teeth on it and it crumbles in your mouth with a bland aftertaste. 

The recent games, like GW2, TSW and friends have combat that is bland and boring if you've been playing MMOs since EQ/UO, or even before (NWN).

The latter games sort of mask that fact by making quests a lot more interesting, adding platforming elements, but ... at the end of the day the activity you engage in most in those games is COMBAT.

 

It's almost a paradox: Why is the combat, the activity you do the most, the weakest? I know it's not easy to implement something really nifty like Chivalry without putting a lot client-side and leaving it vulnerable to hacks. To keep using that as an excuse and adding all of the bells and whistles that TSW and GW2 boast just doesn't seem to make any sense.. to me at least. 

Is it really that much cheaper to just add more things/tools to spice things up than actually innovate, and/or do people simply not care that much about combat?

That is the question on my mind that I wish to discuss. So what is your take on the issue, or is there even an issue in your book?

 

 

 

You are jaded, you should stop playing games altogether.

 

You will never find another MMO that you enjoy long term EVER.  Just like the sandbox nutjobs you will roam these forums for a decade flaming the current market and holding up some fantastical belief that a new game will BLOW YOU AWAY with its awesome combat features.

 

People who enjoy games play them for the entire package not one particular THEORY on a feature which only encompasses part of the experience.  Those of us that are real gamers have played countless games that did not have 100% ideal systems as if we had designed them ourselves, and yet we still had great fun and memorable experiences playing them.

 

I feel sorry for people like you and many others on this forum.  Your standards make it impossible for you to enjoy gaming now or ever, and you are kind of a bore to be around and listen to frankly.

Haha! Murugan, you are jaded.  You should stop posting here at MMORPG altogether.

You will never find a day that you will come here and not hear this kind of thing EVER.  Just like the rest of the trolls you will roam these forums for a decade flaming those younger and less experienced than you because you hold some fantastical belief that all new players have come here with the sole sum of knowledge that it has taken you YEARS to attain.

People who enjoy games play them for whatever reasons they want to, not just because of your particular THEORY of why they should or should not play.  There are those of us who, just like you, have played countless games that did not have a 100% ideal system, and with each new iteration have wondered "When are these guys going to come up with something new?)  There is a list of MMO games a mile long in the games list section of this very forum and I will bet you that you couldn't find more than a 10% difference in the mechanics of them all.

I feel sorry for people like you though, and the many others on this forum.  Your standards make it impossible to hold a reasonable conversation now or ever, and you are kind of a bore to be around frankly, because you add nothing to the conversation.

Here is a demonstration though.

Piechunks.

The reason that combat seems stale to you is because, like Murugan said HAHA!! You are jaded.  I'm not going to come down on you for being so though is as much as I am going to explain to you a couple of reasons why things have been so consistent.

I got this buddy who has never been able to force himself to transition from the keypad to WASD.  I myself only recently forced myself to transition from an inverted mouse to a non-inverted mouse.  I have yet another friend who has NEVER been able to successfully read and/or understand his powers/spells.

You would think that a monkey could do this right?  But no.

There are a LOT of people out there who struggle with the interface and rules of standard MMO control.  So when you get to a game where they are switching around what attacks do, special effects, combination attacks, and yadda, yadda, yadda, the last thing you want to do, if you want to make any money, is increase the learning curve to the point where the person has to learn how to use the keys all over again.

Conan did it, some of us loved is, a lot of others didn't.

Mortal Online tried it, some people liked it, a lot of others couldn't stand it.

Age of Wushu (who it is my guess you are working for) has also changed it, and again, a lot of people like it, but a lot of people are completely lost as to how to use it.

So to conclude, all questions like this can be answered with a very simple explanation. 

Video games are programmed so that the dumbest and most uncoordinated among us won't feel left out to the point that they won't at least TRY to spend some money hanging out with their smarter and more coordinated friends.

And that's why combat is stale.  But it is changing, slowly.

If you need proof my theory, get someone from the Atari or even Nintendo generation, and put them on an Xbox or Playstation.  Odds are that a high percentage of them, unless they are REALLY interested in the game, won't stick with it.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3481

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/13/13 7:14:46 AM#47


Originally posted by Piechunks

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
For me, I want a character who is NOT me. I want random number generators with modifiers deciding my combat, not my own, real life twitch ability. I want my character to be better than I am.

For me, that equates to the "overly boring" tab target with auto-attack, where RNGs decide the outcome, not my hand-eye coordination. I want to "play the role" of my character, not vice versa.

I understand that this is not "the popular way" anymore, but once, it was...



Why not play DND with friends then? It does everything an MMORPG does in that respect.. only infinitely better.

My apologies. I thought you wanted to discuss this topic.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3481

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/13/13 7:33:07 AM#48


Originally posted by aspekx
@AlB

i get your point and i think it was what Piechunk and i were talking about when we were discussing hybrids. how do you get those abilities that clearly none of us have in real life and yet still offer some of the excitement of more engaging combat as well as a strategy.

after all with tabtarget the only way you're going to get cover from fire options is purely through the line of sight. and that's really  just a default way of saying cant see, cant fire.

i too dont want my characters to be too dependent upon my twitch abilities, esp as im getting older. however, i still get a thrill out of gaining partial cover behind rocks and trees and exchanging fire in combat.

and that's of course just one example, but for me it kind of exemplifies what im after.

i dont think your approach should be written off at all. i just would like to see a good hybridization model (or two) to try and find a good balance between them. im a bit of a hegelian at times in that i really think that these things work best when they find an equilibrium with each other rather than a naive black'n'white on or off type of approach.



Yes, the lack of using cover has always bugged me in tab targeting games. The time from seeing the attack launched, traveling towards my character, and finally impacting is poorly handled. If a player hides behind rocks before the enemy launches an attack, then it works, but not trying to use obstacles for cover after an attack has launched.

Dodging is fun, at first. Then it gets monotonous. I have dodged when not intended by double tapping and not dodged when wanted when the double tap did not register or my stamina has run out from accidental dodging. A lot of older MMORPGs had a dodge skill that players could improve for their characters, but it was handled by random number generated (RNG) rolls. Sometimes, you'd see a "dodge" message scroll up in the chat box when the roll succeeded.

As far as being written off... If a company wants to make loads of money, they will not pursue a game with boring combat. I really do not expect an MMORPG to be made again in the near future, but I have a very tiny ember of hope of maybe... someday... :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  User Deleted
 
OP  6/13/13 8:16:44 AM#49
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 





My apologies. I thought you wanted to discuss this topic.

 

 

    There's nothing to discuss really, because you're happy with the way things are, or would even prefer to have things regress even more. That's feedback. That's sufficient. I appreciate the response to the threads topic, but you really can't go anywhere from that, because you wouldn't be interested. 

When you remove the combat and other interactions that require user skill/strategy you are basically left with an interactive movie, like SWToR.

   That's personally not my thing, but I can understand somebody else liking it. Of course... not to become too redundant, but the discussion ends there, because combat doesn't interest you at all.

 

  sketocafe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 682

6/13/13 8:17:52 AM#50

I'm with you OP. MMO combat has grown so stale for me that I actually find PVP in EVE to be mechanically more exciting than any other MMO out there. Think about that one. My first MMO was the Matrix Online. Their interlock system fundamentally did not fit in an MMO but it was actually more fun than that in any of the MMOs I've played since and it was nothing but rock-paper-scissors. 

It's not tab targeting for me because TERA and GW2 were just as stale as anything else. What gets me is the hotbar nature of all the combat. I don't want to press a button and have my character do something cool anymore. I want to actually do something cool. Stop giving me swords and not letting me actually swing them. Stop giving me fireballs but forcing me to just press a button and watch a fireball animation play.  Make me aim that shit. Let me blast a wall to catch all the enemies near it in the AOE. Let me hit a bank shot off a shield to land a fireball someplace where line of sight or clipping would not normally allow me to hit. Don't have a raid boss send me flying though the air with their 'sends players flying through the air' ability, have them do it because they're fucking huge and they clipped me with their arm. Let me knock down an opponent not because I used my knockdown skill, but because I'm a burly dude in full plate and I freakin' bullrushed them and they didn't dodge that time.

It's not technology holding us back here. Game developers insist on using combat systems that have remained, at their heart, unchanged for a decade now. It worked for a time, but I simply can't stomach the idea of logging into any hotbar-combat game any longer.

  Cymdai

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/05
Posts: 1092

It's my job to be objective, it's my right to have an opinion.

6/13/13 10:14:36 AM#51

While I agree combat is incredibly stale and lackluster, I don't agree that people don't play MMORPGs for the other aspects.

My longest-term MMORPG was FFXI, with SWG as the second longest running candidate. Both of these games strongly placed an emphasis on community. You needed to know people, you needed to have meaningful interaction, you needed to be a part of the team. It's the reason that these 2 games were my all time favorite. People didn't care about Min/Maxing so much. I remember in SWG, you'd just stop and chat and hang out with people in camps in between long travels. The cantinas were lively and fun places to interact with other players. In FFXI, you could keep your hardcore raiding linkshell, and your casual chatting LS. This, to me, is why I play MMORPGs. Community, not the combat. People who focus on the combat the most tend to burn out the fastest. The people who are there for the lore, the world, the environment, the atmosphere, those are the people who play a game for years. Other features like the property management, housing, gambling, etc... they're fun. You don't HAVE to do them, but they're there, and they allow you to kill some time, relax, and hang out with people.

I think the problem is that MMORPGs have forgotten how important community is. Advertising "Innovative combat!" attracts the min/maxers. They bury the game in 1-2 months, only to never pick it up again. Advertising "Meaningful interaction, an open world full of surprises" on the other hand, it's going to attract an entirely different crowd.

As stale as combat is, one of the reasons I liked FFXI the most of any MMORPG I ever played was that it wasn't about big numbers. It was a team effort. You needed to focus on party compositions. You had a role to carry out (even if it was fairly 1-dimensional). You had skillchains that meant something, so people weren't just spamming their skills as fast as they could for "omguberDPS". But it was also relaxed enough that, even if you were doing it for 6 hours, you weren't exhausted or mentally fatigued. I'd typically be chatting with my group/linkshell members while I exp'd. You could gauge a player's skill easily, too. Are they debuffing properly? Are they messing up skill chains? Are they pulling agro/links?

I think the "solo-friendly" emphasis we see in modern MMO's makes combat very difficult to evolve. Incorporating advanced mechanics for larger groups (i.e. hard raid bosses, instances) isn't too hard. Look at Rift. When you can add distinct roles, distinct expectations, and complex monster mechanics, combat can become a lot more challenging and interesting. 1 v 1, it's a lot less possible. Make it too hard, and you have Asheron's Call 2, where you don't even want to play the damn game. Make it too easy, and you have GW2, where it's nearly impossible to die.

So, in a sense, I think the problem is not necessarily that the developers don't want to make more intriguing combat systems, but rather, the way the community/playerbase has evolved is preventing meaningful development of such a role. I think when people realize that MMORPG's are supposed to involve other people, rather than just solo grindfests, then we'll see some evolution.

Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1988

6/13/13 11:40:43 AM#52
My take on this is following:

"All things have a measure and everything above that measure is harmful"-paraphrase of Paracelsus' famous words.

How does this apply to MMOs?

We have too much combat. It isn't like in TES or like in NWN. It is constant, unremmiting slaughter. And some of us have grown tired of that. I am not a pacifist(lol at pacifist+Warhammer fan combo!), but I do think that there should be other things to do in MMOs besides killing. What could they be? Stories, crafting, House decoration/construction, general mode(like the Commander mode in Natural Selection), various other jobs that don't involve fighting(dancing, singing, playing an instrument,...) and so forth.

We NEED TO REST FROM all that CARNAGE!

Simple.
  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/13/13 11:44:03 AM#53
Originally posted by Gorwe
My take on this is following:

"All things have a measure and everything above that measure is harmful"-paraphrase of Paracelsus' famous words.

How does this apply to MMOs?

We have too much combat. It isn't like in TES or like in NWN. It is constant, unremmiting slaughter. And some of us have grown tired of that. I am not a pacifist(lol at pacifist+Warhammer fan combo!), but I do think that there should be other things to do in MMOs besides killing. What could they be? Stories, crafting, House decoration/construction, general mode(like the Commander mode in Natural Selection), various other jobs that don't involve fighting(dancing, singing, playing an instrument,...) and so forth.

We NEED TO REST FROM all that CARNAGE!

Simple.

I agree with you that MMOs are exclusively about combat lately. I for one am not saying make combat the only activity, I am saying if it comes to blows, that should be exciting.

I would love a game that gives experience for diplomacy or artful dodging as well as fighting.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3481

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/13/13 11:56:30 AM#54


Originally posted by Gorwe
My take on this is following:

"All things have a measure and everything above that measure is harmful"

-paraphrase of Paracelsus' famous words.

How does this apply to MMOs?

We have too much combat. It isn't like in TES or like in NWN. It is constant, unremmiting slaughter. And some of us have grown tired of that. I am not a pacifist(lol at pacifist+Warhammer fan combo!), but I do think that there should be other things to do in MMOs besides killing. What could they be? Stories, crafting, House decoration/construction, general mode(like the Commander mode in Natural Selection), various other jobs that don't involve fighting(dancing, singing, playing an instrument,...) and so forth.

We NEED TO REST FROM all that CARNAGE!Simple.



Well put.

I would add that having multiple ways to accomplish tasks (quests, missions, what have you) besides killing would be a nice break.

Anything over-done becomes stale quickly.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2549

World > Quest Progression

6/13/13 12:51:57 PM#55
I agree that having a sea of hot bar abilities has become bland. Mostly IMO due to have too many where you just press random ones until the mob dies. If mobs were harder and/or there weren't too many skills it wouldn't seem so mind numbing.

There is room for innovation to a point. I'd like to see a combination of proccing, reactionary and state change abilities that are diffrerent depending on what is currently happening in a fight. Most games have proccing abilities but do not go farther than a topical level. Aion is the only game I know of to have staged abilities.

This is one of the reasons I won't mind if more MMOs go to console. If you set up the combat system as stated above, not only would combat be more engaging but you could also have 20-30+ abilities that are easily navigated by a gamepad.
  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2521

6/13/13 1:02:24 PM#56

The most impressive game shown at E3 for me was The Division.


Oh no! A console MMOFPS!


Tab target style combat really cant evolve anymore. I dont mind playing MMOs with tab target combat but nor can I become excited by tab target combat. But after 10+ years of similar combat from dozens of different MMOs its time to move on.

The recent trend has been to merge some aspects of action combat into tab target to varying degrees like GW2 and Neverwinter but eventually the tab target roots emerge.


So, is the future of MMO combat real time action/shooting? Definitely.

The real question is whether or not "MMO veterans" will embrace that future or still be grumpily reminiscing about Everquest and Ultima Online in 2020.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2549

World > Quest Progression

6/13/13 2:26:59 PM#57
I disagree that to evolve the combat system HAD to go to action based. There are far too many variations in between. Combat for an MMO IMO has less to do with reticle/tab and more to do with how abilities are used.

That said my hope is for a hybrid free motion with button or voice activated abilities. To me that's the epitome of player skill.
  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7286

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

6/13/13 2:33:16 PM#58
Originally posted by Aelious
I agree that having a sea of hot bar abilities has become bland. Mostly IMO due to have too many where you just press random ones until the mob dies. If mobs were harder and/or there weren't too many skills it wouldn't seem so mind numbing.

There is room for innovation to a point. I'd like to see a combination of proccing, reactionary and state change abilities that are diffrerent depending on what is currently happening in a fight. Most games have proccing abilities but do not go farther than a topical level. Aion is the only game I know of to have staged abilities.

This is one of the reasons I won't mind if more MMOs go to console. If you set up the combat system as stated above, not only would combat be more engaging but you could also have 20-30+ abilities that are easily navigated by a gamepad.

Vanguard SOH has some classes that have staged abilities.

 

The problem with abilities in certain circumstances is that you have to be able to plan ahead for these circumstances or then you run into the issue of forcing time constraints in order for abilities to fire, and in those situations, slap a gamepad on it and call it an action game.

 

Like DCUO, you can string combos together, but in certain situations you need to change your combo on the fly or suffer some consequences.  In Vanguard when completing certain requirements an ability might open up, but if you don't hit it fast enough, you lose the advantage.

 

I'm all for ability based combat, but if its just firing off abilities in a certain order - that gets into the realm of macro combat, and nothing is more boring than that.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2549

World > Quest Progression

6/13/13 3:06:19 PM#59
Vanguard does have triggered abilities but like procced ones it's pretty predictable. To have engaging combat you may need to make those tough choices or lose out if too much time goes by. The chains in Aion are a great example of using or skipping abilities depending on your choice.

IMO the goal is to have some variation between fights. If you can fight a boar (/rimshot), kill it, fight another one and the fight is different that's mission accomplished. Now just do that eight more times :)
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20663

6/13/13 3:15:29 PM#60
Originally posted by AlBQuirky
That is a very limited view.

 

If FPS just stays FPS, and nothing else, we won't have great hybrid games like Borderlands.

And there are plenty of MMOFPS (planetside 2, destiny ...) that look like good games.



I do not care if genres move about a bit. When they forget their roots, and what made them what they are, I get surly.

 

There are not many MMORPGs anymore. They are all, at best, MMOACG (Action Combat Games). *You* and most new players do not want MMORPGs. They are too slow. Too boring. A waste of time. Not fun.

Have MMOFPSs, that is a good thing. Have MMOACGs, that is another good thing. Same with MMORTSs and any other conglomeration of MMO letter combos. Just don't forget about MMORPGs.

You don't care if genres move about .... we do. When they unshackle from their roots, it is where innovations happen. Just like MMOs unshackled the RPG small group root, and change things up.

Genre, like all things, adapt to survive.

Text adventures becomes graphical adventures. RPG elements and scripted events were added into FPS. No one argues that DOOM is the pure FPS, and Borderland, a hybrid, should not be produced.

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