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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMORPG combat is very stale

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105 posts found
  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

6/12/13 4:23:52 PM#21

its interesting, coming from a tabletop old school background i was not terribly excited by the idea of 'action combat' in games like TERA and the like. i have always kept my fps's in a separate container than my rpg's.

 

however, lately that has begun to change. bouncing between Defiance and Rift the past couple of weeks i have found that in Rift i miss being able to do something as simple as take cover behind a tree or rock. and in Defiance i miss the rpg abilities to really hide, as in a skill set, from the enemy.

 

at this point, i would have to say that my tastes have changed.

 

but, this is important: rpg's make up for exactly what action combat requires, real ability. i play rpg's b/c i am most certainly not a skilled opponent in combat with lightning reflexes, i am not a magical hero with the ability to calculate the jump fall ratio needed in order to leap roof top to vehicle seat. i am not a hero, nor do i bear any resemblance to one.

 

so how do we include both action combat which allows for far more strategic thinking in combat scenarios and yet make up for the lack of heroic dexterity and decision making that the majority of us lack, but which rpg's make up for with skills, levels, and the like?

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  User Deleted
 
OP  6/12/13 4:25:50 PM#22

Originally posted by Drakynn
What's funny is for every post about stale combat in MMORPGs we get here there's a dozen more that complaining about any change no matter how small.

So do you have an opinion on the matter (MMORPG combat), or did you just come here to complain about my dissatisfaction (like some others have)?

 

Originally posted by KingGator
Wack a mole 3 button console combat isn't what an RPG is about, I cannot wait for generation ADHD to stop having so much influence on games.

What..... who asked for that specifically? Since you are complaining about people afflicted with ADHD, I must ask: why did you lack effort/willingness to read my initial post?

 

  User Deleted
 
OP  6/12/13 4:31:53 PM#23
Originally posted by aspekx
*good stuff*

 

Thank you. Finally a post offering some insight and not just an opinion! I agree with the aspect/tradeoff of skill vs. planning (skillset required for most RPGs traditionally).

Perhaps as an alternative, combat could be made more to appeal to people who aren't skilled and add some more strategic options; a skill tree unlocked by performing a move, or a long sequence of moves you had to plan ahead of time with the only skill component being when to unlock them.

... or better yet include viable options for both types of players: include a class or two that involves FPS targeting, while one requires strategy.

 

Some games like AoC and to a far lesser degree (e.g. archer/necro/mage), Tera did something to this extent by making casters somewhat tab-target friendly.. at least compared to the other classes.

 

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

6/12/13 4:32:28 PM#24
Originally posted by Piechunks

Originally posted by Drakynn
What's funny is for every post about stale combat in MMORPGs we get here there's a dozen more that complaining about any change no matter how small.

So do you have an opinion on the matter (MMORPG combat), or did you just come here to complain about my dissatisfaction (like some others have)?

You are free to feel dissatisfied and  voice it.I was merely pointing out a factor that may prevent MMORPG combat from changing.

I personally still find traditional MMORPG combat fine but have no objection to other combat systems as long as the game is fun.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7284

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

6/12/13 4:36:19 PM#25

This is all relative.  There really aren't very many combat systems that are "new".  The closest you'll get are hybridized combat systems.  Everyone touted how great TERA's combat was,  but the truth is, I was playing TERA's combat way back in early 2000 on the Dreamcast with Phantasy Star Online.

 

The point is, if you deviate too much from what is familiar, you end up with a niche style of RPG combat.  As stated previously, DCUO has quite possibly the most interesting combat  for an Action-MMO-RPG ( and it is an MMORPG with raids, open world PvP, guilds, Crafting, and Housing).  But one of the issues with the major upgrade in mobility and combat was that so many traditional RPG players couldn't keep up.

 

Go back to when Tabula Rasa was released and you see another hybridized combat model, resembling a more open FPS style of combat with a fixed skill system.  That game had dynamic PvE events that people didn't appreciate until GW2 made it their crowning achievement.   The combat was pretty enjoyable, though it had its share of problems -- yet it didn't bring a large following.

 

In that sense you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.  There are games out right now with different combat.  You just have to look for them, and then, of course, play them.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

6/12/13 4:39:04 PM#26
Originally posted by Piechunks
Originally posted by aspekx
*good stuff*

 

Thank you. Finally a post offering some insight and not just an opinion! I agree with the aspect/tradeoff of skill vs. planning (skillset required for most RPGs traditionally).

Perhaps as an alternative, combat could be made more to appeal to people who aren't skilled and add some more strategic options; a skill tree unlocked by performing a move, or a long sequence of moves you had to plan ahead of time with the only skill component being when to unlock them.

... or better yet include viable options for both types of players: include a class or two that involves FPS targeting, while one requires strategy.

 

Some games like AoC and to a far lesser degree (e.g. archer/necro/mage), Tera did something to this extent by making casters somewhat tab-target friendly.. at least compared to the other classes.

 

now that's an interesting thought because it actually brings up an older form of rpg combat like skill chains. you had to have the reaction time to use them, but if you got that right the skills would fill in the rest rewarding  you with the dramatic jump, fly, slam, aoe combos that we all love to watch.

 

i would certainly be open to a game that could somehow not gimp me for my lack of manual dexterity, but that still allowed for that action combat strategy needed in order to survive.

 

you mentioned AoC and while it was a small learning curve i think they were on to something there: reactions + rpg skills.

 

also, which class did you think would be the best example of this in TERA (i think is what you meant). i have it installed and would like to mess around with that a bit to see more of what you're suggesting.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

6/12/13 4:45:00 PM#27
Originally posted by Piechunks
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

+1, If I want a FPS, I will play it, I do not want my mmo to be more FPS, than mmorpg.  IF people have their way, mmorpgs will be gone, for the sake of bam bam boom boom.

 

Well OK, but what exactly do you want from an MMO then in the combat department?

 

I like the trinity for the most part.  I really dislike mouse lock, it takes away such a good tool in the mouse.  I am ok with a system as far as up to TSW in theory, people dislike the animations or whatever, but the mechanics I am ok with, but I still prefer tab targeting to be honest.

 

I like more focus on what you are going to do, than where you are going to dodge/roll, I like to play as a group and such, I hardly ever play a MMO solo (as I am married and my wife plays, so I am always atleast duo), so in my opinion the more solo aspect of action combat is lost for me.

 

I also dislike the visual warning shows, that light up on the ground, when their is going to be a AE attack or something, feels more like a arcade game than a mmorpg to me.

 

So recap, up to TSW doesn't bother me too much, but I prefer old school, stuff with mouse lock, I usually hate and cannot log out of quick enough.  I like to play all aspects of a mmorpg, PvP/PvE/harvesting/crafting and other things.  I like depth and quality.  If the crafting/harvesting/economy is shallow/broken/useless, it would cause me to quit a mmorpg, well before say the animations on combat are a little off.

 

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2864

6/12/13 4:50:03 PM#28
MMO's are typically 'stale' because the game's are supposed to be massive in size. Unfortunately developers have now downsized the sized the world and simply stated they're, "cutting the grind from the game" so that they don't have to work on such large games. It's a shame, because now we're getting MMO's that are shorter than most Singler-Player RPG's.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7284

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

6/12/13 4:53:16 PM#29
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
MMO's are typically 'stale' because the game's are supposed to be massive in size. Unfortunately developers have now downsized the sized the world and simply stated they're, "cutting the grind from the game" so that they don't have to work on such large games. It's a shame, because now we're getting MMO's that are shorter than most Singler-Player RPG's.

I don't think that holds true for the combat.  In many cases, the longer the time to level, the more overused a boring combat system is played.

 

Traditionally you need just a small handful of rotating skills to complete the leveling process once you hit the height of your progression.  The longer the game the more you see those same skills and the more boring it gets... in my opinion, of course.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

6/12/13 4:56:06 PM#30
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

+1, If I want a FPS, I will play it, I do not want my mmo to be more FPS, than mmorpg.  IF people have their way, mmorpgs will be gone, for the sake of bam bam boom boom.

That is a very limited view.

If FPS just stays FPS, and nothing else, we won't have great hybrid games like Borderlands.

And there are plenty of MMOFPS (planetside 2, destiny ...) that look like good games.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

6/12/13 4:58:41 PM#31
Originally posted by aspekx

its interesting, coming from a tabletop old school background i was not terribly excited by the idea of 'action combat' in games like TERA and the like. i have always kept my fps's in a separate container than my rpg's.

 

however, lately that has begun to change. bouncing between Defiance and Rift the past couple of weeks i have found that in Rift i miss being able to do something as simple as take cover behind a tree or rock. and in Defiance i miss the rpg abilities to really hide, as in a skill set, from the enemy.

 

at this point, i would have to say that my tastes have changed.

Personally i think the notions of RPG type progression is not specific to any kind of combat. It can fit action combat (like Diablo), FPS (like Borderland) or turn-based combat (like all the JRPG).

And i think devs are just realizing the power of hybrids.

  User Deleted
 
OP  6/12/13 5:36:09 PM#32
Originally posted by aspekx
 

 

also, which class did you think would be the best example of this in TERA (i think is what you meant). i have it installed and would like to mess around with that a bit to see more of what you're suggesting.

    Archer for the most part. It's definitely more of a kite than a dodge and roll/block class that relies on reactions.

   Mage is kind of similar, but there might be some timing involved with delayed explosion spells etc.

 

 

   

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3460

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/12/13 6:25:18 PM#33


Originally posted by Piechunks

Originally posted by Xthos

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

+1, If I want a FPS, I will play it, I do not want my mmo to be more FPS, than mmorpg.  IF people have their way, mmorpgs will be gone, for the sake of bam bam boom boom.
 
Well OK, but what exactly do you want from an MMO then in the combat department?

For me, I want a character who is NOT me. I want random number generators with modifiers deciding my combat, not my own, real life twitch ability. I want my character to be better than I am.

For me, that equates to the "overly boring" tab target with auto-attack, where RNGs decide the outcome, not my hand-eye coordination. I want to "play the role" of my character, not vice versa.

I understand that this is not "the popular way" anymore, but once, it was...

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3460

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/12/13 6:39:45 PM#34


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Xthos

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

+1, If I want a FPS, I will play it, I do not want my mmo to be more FPS, than mmorpg.  IF people have their way, mmorpgs will be gone, for the sake of bam bam boom boom.

That is a very limited view.

If FPS just stays FPS, and nothing else, we won't have great hybrid games like Borderlands.

And there are plenty of MMOFPS (planetside 2, destiny ...) that look like good games.



I do not care if genres move about a bit. When they forget their roots, and what made them what they are, I get surly.

There are not many MMORPGs anymore. They are all, at best, MMOACG (Action Combat Games). *You* and most new players do not want MMORPGs. They are too slow. Too boring. A waste of time. Not fun.

Have MMOFPSs, that is a good thing. Have MMOACGs, that is another good thing. Same with MMORTSs and any other conglomeration of MMO letter combos. Just don't forget about MMORPGs.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  User Deleted
 
OP  6/12/13 6:45:09 PM#35
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 




For me, I want a character who is NOT me. I want random number generators with modifiers deciding my combat, not my own, real life twitch ability. I want my character to be better than I am.

 

For me, that equates to the "overly boring" tab target with auto-attack, where RNGs decide the outcome, not my hand-eye coordination. I want to "play the role" of my character, not vice versa.

I understand that this is not "the popular way" anymore, but once, it was...

 

Why not play DND with friends then? It does everything an MMORPG does in that respect.. only infinitely better.

  k11keeper

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/04
Posts: 1040

"" "" "" ""

6/12/13 6:48:23 PM#36

Oh this old topic again. I know a lot of people out there way super fast action combat but I'm not one of them. I didn't start my RPGs on tabletop but I did start with turn based combat like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, Grandia, etc. MMORPGs to me were an extension of this so having fast paced action style combat seems rather silly to me. Strategy, execution, and understanding what to do and when are more important to me than who has the quickest reaction time.

I play game where reaction time matters like FPS and arcade fighting games but I've never really been a fan of this for RPGs luckily in single player games like elder scrolls I can pause if things are happening too fast. In an online game I cannot pause and so in order for me to be able to think clearly and execute correctly the game pace needs to be slightly slower.

It seem what you want is a hack and slash style of game with RPG elements that is not what and many other want at all.

  fardreamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/03
Posts: 224

"Trust your feelings!"

6/12/13 6:51:46 PM#37
Dragon Prophet combat system is still the most innovative and fun thing to happen a mmo imo, to bad there is no AAA title using DPs combat.
  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

6/12/13 6:57:03 PM#38

@AlB

 

i get your point and i think it was what Piechunk and i were talking about when we were discussing hybrids. how do you get those abilities that clearly none of us have in real life and yet still offer some of the excitement of more engaging combat as well as a strategy.

 

after all with tabtarget the only way you're going to get cover from fire options is purely through the line of sight. and that's really  just a default way of saying cant see, cant fire.

 

i too dont want my characters to be too dependent upon my twitch abilities, esp as im getting older. however, i still get a thrill out of gaining partial cover behind rocks and trees and exchanging fire in combat.

 

and that's of course just one example, but for me it kind of exemplifies what im after.

 

i dont think your approach should be written off at all. i just would like to see a good hybridization model (or two) to try and find a good balance between them. im a bit of a hegelian at times in that i really think that these things work best when they find an equilibrium with each other rather than a naive black'n'white on or off type of approach.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

6/12/13 7:27:44 PM#39
Originally posted by nariusseldon

- STO has interesting ship combat. It is still tab targeting, but you have to deal with facing and turning rate ... it is interesting and different compared to other MMO toon based combat (although the ground combat is nothing to write home about).

 

Come on, that's not very interesting.  Reinforce your front shields and pound with torpedoes until they get low, then fly around the enemy to the left, letting those shields take a pounding, then reverse your direction and do it for the other side.  Lather, rinse, repeat, use crew skills to repair your shields.  I can do most battles on STO in my sleep.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

6/12/13 7:38:40 PM#40
Originally posted by aspekx

after all with tabtarget the only way you're going to get cover from fire options is purely through the line of sight. and that's really  just a default way of saying cant see, cant fire.

I agree with you there, in fact, I had exactly that issue in STO in large battles where you take out the enemy in front of you and now, to change targets, all of the enemies behind you are blasting your ass and you can't swing your view around to click on one of them because the game keeps moving your view back to the front.  In a realistic game, you'd be able to pick another target from your sensors, which I guess is what TAB really represents.  I just want to be able to pick up new target for my rear-firing weapons without having to fight the interface and maybe the interface needs to be improved so I don't have to do that with TAB.

In fact, I'd like to be able to fire at multiple targets within different firing arcs at the same time.  That strikes me as more realistic too.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

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