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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMORPG combat is very stale

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  User Deleted
 
OP  6/12/13 11:37:56 AM#1

Like 2000-1998ish stale. So fucking stale that you could break your teeth on it and it crumbles in your mouth with a bland aftertaste. 

The recent games, like GW2, TSW and friends have combat that is bland and boring if you've been playing MMOs since EQ/UO, or even before (NWN).

The latter games sort of mask that fact by making quests a lot more interesting, adding platforming elements, but ... at the end of the day the activity you engage in most in those games is COMBAT.

 

It's almost a paradox: Why is the combat, the activity you do the most, the weakest? I know it's not easy to implement something really nifty like Chivalry without putting a lot client-side and leaving it vulnerable to hacks. To keep using that as an excuse and adding all of the bells and whistles that TSW and GW2 boast just doesn't seem to make any sense.. to me at least. 

Is it really that much cheaper to just add more things/tools to spice things up than actually innovate, and/or do people simply not care that much about combat?

That is the question on my mind that I wish to discuss. So what is your take on the issue, or is there even an issue in your book?

 

 

 

  maskedweasel

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Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

6/12/13 12:00:26 PM#2

Most game combat is "stale" if you've been playing games your entire life.  But in regards to MMO combat, minor changes can change the way people perceive combat.  

 

Personally I think DCUO still has the best MMO combat even after all this time, and even with the sometimes faulty targeting and animation cancelling.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

6/12/13 12:03:11 PM#3

I don't disagree.

But there are a couple of ways to improve upon combat:

- go the FPS route .. there are quite a few MMOFPS now.

- go the action RPG route. NWO is trying to do that a bit. Obviously it can be done better. Marvel Heroes goes the full Diablo combat route (but not as polished as D3, or Incredible Adventure of Van Helsing), and you can argue it is not a "real" MMO.

- STO has interesting ship combat. It is still tab targeting, but you have to deal with facing and turning rate ... it is interesting and different compared to other MMO toon based combat (although the ground combat is nothing to write home about).

 

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/12/13 12:05:24 PM#4
Originally posted by Piechunks

Like 2000-1998ish stale. So fucking stale that you could break your teeth on it and it crumbles in your mouth with a bland aftertaste. 

The recent games, like GW2, TSW and friends have combat that is bland and boring if you've been playing MMOs since EQ/UO, or even before (NWN).

The latter games sort of mask that fact by making quests a lot more interesting, adding platforming elements, but ... at the end of the day the activity you engage in most in those games is COMBAT.

 

It's almost a paradox: Why is the combat, the activity you do the most, the weakest? I know it's not easy to implement something really nifty like Chivalry without putting a lot client-side and leaving it vulnerable to hacks. To keep using that as an excuse and adding all of the bells and whistles that TSW and GW2 boast just doesn't seem to make any sense.. to me at least. 

Is it really that much cheaper to just add more things/tools to spice things up than actually innovate, and/or do people simply not care that much about combat?

That is the question on my mind that I wish to discuss. So what is your take on the issue, or is there even an issue in your book?

 

 

 

You are jaded, you should stop playing games altogether.

 

You will never find another MMO that you enjoy long term EVER.  Just like the sandbox nutjobs you will roam these forums for a decade flaming the current market and holding up some fantastical belief that a new game will BLOW YOU AWAY with its awesome combat features.

 

People who enjoy games play them for the entire package not one particular THEORY on a feature which only encompasses part of the experience.  Those of us that are real gamers have played countless games that did not have 100% ideal systems as if we had designed them ourselves, and yet we still had great fun and memorable experiences playing them.

 

I feel sorry for people like you and many others on this forum.  Your standards make it impossible for you to enjoy gaming now or ever, and you are kind of a bore to be around and listen to frankly.

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2942

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/12/13 12:09:27 PM#5

I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

6/12/13 12:14:41 PM#6
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

Because combat is 90% of MMO gameplay .. raids, dungeon runs, arena, battleground, and even quests in the world are about combat.

All the non-combat MMOs (tales in the dessert, SIMS online ..) are either very niche or crash-n-burn.

What else can you play MMORPG for? I doubt many play MMORPGs for housing, or slow travel.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4650

6/12/13 12:17:02 PM#7
Originally posted by Piechunks

Like 2000-1998ish stale. So fucking stale that you could break your teeth on it and it crumbles in your mouth with a bland aftertaste. 

The recent games, like GW2, TSW and friends have combat that is bland and boring if you've been playing MMOs since EQ/UO, or even before (NWN).

The latter games sort of mask that fact by making quests a lot more interesting, adding platforming elements, but ... at the end of the day the activity you engage in most in those games is COMBAT.

It's almost a paradox: Why is the combat, the activity you do the most, the weakest? I know it's not easy to implement something really nifty like Chivalry without putting a lot client-side and leaving it vulnerable to hacks. To keep using that as an excuse and adding all of the bells and whistles that TSW and GW2 boast just doesn't seem to make any sense.. to me at least. 

Is it really that much cheaper to just add more things/tools to spice things up than actually innovate, and/or do people simply not care that much about combat?

That is the question on my mind that I wish to discuss. So what is your take on the issue, or is there even an issue in your book?

Do yourself a favor.

Replay the games like GW2, NWN, Tera, etc. (TSW's combat is actually quite bad in a lot of ways). Then go back and actually play an MMO from 2000/1998. If you can't see the difference you need to turn off the computer and go outside.

I've also been playing MMOs since UO, and there has been quite a big jump between the MMOs today and the ones back then. Combat has gotten MUCH more active (good luck trying to dodge in UO), it's also gotten more complex in many ways. There's been a pretty huge shift away from passives-oriented combat. Furthermore quite a few games nowadays feature more combo-oriented combat. A trend that was start in FFXI with the renkei system.

I had a lot of fun with the games from 2000, but when it comes to MMOs especially I realize that many of those games are just archaic by today's standards. Not only would the combat not hold up at all, but many of the mechanics would just feel bland compared to today's games. It's the nostalgia telling you differently.

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2828

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

6/12/13 12:19:19 PM#8

Oddly enough I do agree. GW2 and TSW combat is by far the weakest part in either game, going for action based combat but feeling like a slippery mess. 

 

Still, Tera works as a good example of doing action combat right, or at the very least pushing it in the right direction. While I feel it could be improved for sure, it did the core element of combat right, even if other areas are a bit lack luster unfortunately. In the end though, I think Tera shows also that combat can't be the only factor in the game. Combat IS a huge part yes, but it needs other elements as well. Unfortunately as well... people will even protest against systems that might involve more innovation in how its handled. I remember cries and cries about being rooted in Tera which to me is just insane that 'rooting' is a killer, considering it not only makes combat feel more responsive, but it adds an element of skill that when done right can really make combat vastly better. Look at GW2 and how its auto attacks and moving around makes it extremely floating and weakens the combat greatly.

 

I feel that there are plenty of stale combat mechanics, but there still are some attempting to push the envelop. Neverwinter might of found a good balance to try and lure some more into a different style of combat mixing the two better then GW2 did, but its still has work to go and there needs to be more steps to get casual players into more skill based combat that is more advanced.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2942

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/12/13 12:42:16 PM#9


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

Because combat is 90% of MMO gameplay .. raids, dungeon runs, arena, battleground, and even quests in the world are about combat.

All the non-combat MMOs (tales in the dessert, SIMS online ..) are either very niche or crash-n-burn.

What else can you play MMORPG for? I doubt many play MMORPGs for housing, or slow travel.



I realize that letters and genre mean nothing to you, as long as it is "fun!" (as if there is 1 player of games that does not seek fun), but MMORPG (look at the thread title) is NOT a generic MMOXXX.

MMO gameplay perhaps, not MMORPG gameplay. MMOFPS gameplay, for sure, not MMORPG.

What you say is true, though. 80-90% of MMORPG gameplay is all about combat. I have listed many, many times before why *I* play MMORPGs (I need a stinkin' world!"). They do not coincide with *your* reasons (I don't need no stinkin' world!"). What you find boring, I find fun and interesting. What *you* seek out (combat, combat, combat) *I* try to avoid as much as possible.

You're in the majority. Gratz.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11915

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

6/12/13 12:46:50 PM#10
Originally posted by Murugan

 

You are jaded, you should stop playing games altogether.

+1

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1322

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

6/12/13 1:42:41 PM#11

RPG's come from table-top, dice-rolling games. Your character's success depends largely on dice-rolls, not on how well you handle the mouse/keyboard/controller. I loved EQ combat, and had fun mashing buttons, watching results in the text window; and also had time to talk to the group, guild, or even in the chat channel. If you find these activities boring, don't blame the genre.

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  User Deleted
 
OP  6/12/13 2:48:12 PM#12
Originally posted by Murugan

 

You are jaded, you should stop playing games altogether.

 

I feel sorry for people like you and many others on this forum.  Your standards make it impossible for you to enjoy gaming now or ever, and you are kind of a bore to be around and listen to frankly.

 

    Don't take this the wrong way, but by your own reasoning, you should stop reading the forums.

    No offense, but I'll continue to do what I want independent of the opinions and desires of people on the internet who I frankly don't care about.

 

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

6/12/13 2:52:51 PM#13

TSW was quite bad, I don't disagree with that. GW2 had something going on but was ultimately rather "meh". it is fairly hard to find a game you really, really enjoy these days (although MMO combat has always sucked).

There are few nuggets of gold here and there tho. Don't lose hope. You're not alone.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4398

6/12/13 2:58:04 PM#14
I don't find the combat stale, and enjoy the action combat mmos. What I find gets stale is the reason you're fighting at all.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/12/13 3:00:44 PM#15
Originally posted by Piechunks
Originally posted by Murugan

 

You are jaded, you should stop playing games altogether.

 

I feel sorry for people like you and many others on this forum.  Your standards make it impossible for you to enjoy gaming now or ever, and you are kind of a bore to be around and listen to frankly.

 

    Don't take this the wrong way, but by your own reasoning, you should stop reading the forums.

    No offense, but I'll continue to do what I want independent of the opinions and desires of people on the internet who I frankly don't care about.

 

Well ditto and yet here you are with your thread, in your authoritative voice, talking about how "stagnant" the industry is.  You then ask what others think the issue is, I responded.  You are jaded. 

 

Of course you can continue posting here for the next decade about how much everything is SH*T ARRRGH WHY WON"T THEY LISTEN TO ME!!!!  I don't happen to see the point of all that, but you'll get people agreeing with you that life is a black empty void with nothing but disappointment and sorrow, and that is what you likely wanted anyways.

 

I'll leave you to it, have "fun".

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  User Deleted
 
OP  6/12/13 3:09:36 PM#16
Originally posted by Murugan
 

Well ditto and yet here you are with your thread, in your authoritative voice, talking about how "stagnant" the industry is.  You then ask what others think the issue is, I responded.  You are jaded. 

 

Of course you can continue posting here for the next decade about how much everything is SH*T ARRRGH WHY WON"T THEY LISTEN TO ME!!!!  I don't happen to see the point of all that, but you'll get people agreeing with you that life is a black empty void with nothing but disappointment and sorrow, and that is what you likely wanted anyways.

 

I'll leave you to it, have "fun".

 

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. Have a nice day.

 

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2627

6/12/13 3:13:00 PM#17
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

+1, If I want a FPS, I will play it, I do not want my mmo to be more FPS, than mmorpg.  IF people have their way, mmorpgs will be gone, for the sake of bam bam boom boom.

  User Deleted
 
OP  6/12/13 3:14:24 PM#18
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...

+1, If I want a FPS, I will play it, I do not want my mmo to be more FPS, than mmorpg.  IF people have their way, mmorpgs will be gone, for the sake of bam bam boom boom.

 

Well OK, but what exactly do you want from an MMO then in the combat department?

 

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

6/12/13 3:16:11 PM#19
What's funny is for every post about stale combat in MMORPGs we get here there's a dozen more that complaining about any change no matter how small.
  KingGator

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 474

6/12/13 3:16:29 PM#20
Wack a mole 3 button console combat isn't what an RPG is about, I cannot wait for generation ADHD to stop having so much influence on games.
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