Trending Games | Pirate101 | ArcheAge | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn | Wasteland 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,860,063 Users Online:0
Games:742  Posts:6,245,387
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Price of Immersion

11 Pages First « 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 » Search
220 posts found
  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

6/10/13 1:48:10 PM#181
Originally posted by Axehilt

People aren't talking about fast travel anywhere because it doesn't exist.  It means that you can, at level 1, teleport to literally any exact coordinate in the entire game.  It's a completely ridiculous, completely excessive notion.

Because you have no interest in truth and argue for the sake for argument, I'm going to block you.  If you had the willpower to argue forever against an indisputable dictionary proving me correct in the other discussion, then I'm certainly not going to attempt to discuss something which is true but less ironclad in its truth.

...

When I clearly state that this is in fact not what I'm arguing against, how does one come to the conclusion that I'm arguing for it?

You just accused me of saying something I did not, and blocked me for something I did not say?

Perhaps that's better off, seeing as you're the one constantly fabricating false arguments.

 

And whatever, People keep skipping from 'lobby styled' to just 'lobby games'.

 

I specifically noted several things, notably two points that are being thrown back at me in argument.

One, I stated the main aspect is they 'minimize the game world'. This is a different effect from overland map type fast travel akin to Bauldr's Gate because those types of games still retain large traversable areas as a standard part of their environments.

Two, I stated that they could retain immersion myself. I even gave example in the manner Neverwinter and DDO use particular doors within the hub location and how Vindictus wraps all travel up with hopping on a boat.

Three, I'm not arguing that these MMOs are straight up lobby games, nor am I arguing that they are still game 'worlds'. I am stating that they very much straddle the line in the manner their game is set up and experienced, and that it has a considerable impact on how people perceive them, and the influence it has on how common elements talked about have a strongly minimized or altered factor to them.

Four, I didn't call Immersion 'just one feature' or any kind of feature. I have called it the implementation and consistency of any given set of features.

Hence also my previous comment "Travel in a game doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a game element that has to play alongside many others and is one that influences and is influenced by many others." noting that many features play off one another.

 

This is frustrating, because every argument made has effectively either been a misinterpretation or a requote of something I said now.

 

The only person I cared to correct was Axehilt because he mischaracterized travel, and then straight up lied to me about both what I have said and has refused to even address what my actual commentary was.

 

The rest of this was basically informational and my stance on the present range of game mechanics. On one end we have a game world, on the other we have them cutting out the game world. There ARE MMOs with strong lobby elements that aren't Global Agenda, Neverwinter is a specific example of a game that isn't a Lobby, but carries many elements of one. It's also the style of MMO that has seen more presence in the market over the years, as it's not alone in the way it's world is built and content is condensed and minimized.

It also shows up in older titles and open world MMOs in the form of party tools such as WoW's dungeon finder. A mechanic that can shift the gameplay rather dramatically from actually exploring the world, into standing in the middle of the city waiting for a queue to pop and your character to teleport away onto adventure. They might not have removed the game world in this case, but they have almost entirely circumvented it.

 

This is the very notion Axehilt refuses to acknowledge, instead making up that 'teleport anywhere' argument that no one but himself was arguing for or against.

 

As I stated in my previous post with the spectrum instead of 'travel' vs 'no travel', noting that it was an element of the games stemming from how they mechanics of the game world influenced the presence or lack of the world itself and the consequent influence on the manner the players traversed and experienced it.

It's why I state these lobby influenced MMOs to be the polar of the spectrum of 'no fast travel' because they are even more strongly the polar of full worlds.

I never said they couldn't bear their own forms of immersion, I actually said quite the opposite, my point existed entirely in noting how they compare, contrast, and conflict with other forms of games and where they exist in relation to one another.

Consequently, it'd become a matter of perspective to the individual in what they prefer past that point.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3206

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/10/13 1:56:13 PM#182


Originally posted by lizardbones

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by lizardbones
Oh yeah? I've been immersed in text based adventures. Top that.

"Immersion" has always been a pretty much a never-ending argument topic on every roleplay board I've ever seen.

/ugh roleplayers, i no rite?

One of the hazards of gamerslang talking points, so many vaguely, subjectively defined terms to argue about. And no one ever argued quite so well, so long or so often as roleplayers judging each other.



It's better than people arguing politics or religion. :-)

HUSH! Don't give people ideas!

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

6/10/13 2:10:20 PM#183


Originally posted by Deivos

And whatever, People keep skipping from 'lobby styled' to just 'lobby games'.

 




That's probably because it's a common refrain on this site. "WoW is just a lobby game now", type of thing.

There definitely was a progression in MMOs, but we at least know where the progression stops in regards to travel and lobby based games. It's Global Agenda, and I guess Neverwinter, I haven't played NW so I can't be sure. Global Agenda's 'world' is a three dimensional, third person view lobby. On one side of Global Agenda, we have actual MMORPGs, who may incorporate convenience features, but not to the extent of a lobby based game. On the other side we have lobby based games like D3 or Mechwarrior.

The end point on the spectrum for travel from slow travel to the other end would be allowing instant travel rather than fast travel, and to allow it universally without first traveling to a location. End points could still be restricted by level, because they can be in lobby based games, and end points could still be restricted by unlocks as well, because this happens in lobby based games. The world still exists, but the areas between quest areas or main attractions has been minimized. The world could be divided into zones, and open world travel between zones restricted while still retaining the "MMORPG" title.

The question is, is that instant travel option likely to happen in an MMORPG, and is it likely to be accepted by the MMORPG populace? In keeping with the thread's subject, are more players likely to maintain immersion with slow travel, fast travel or instant travel?

For me, it doesn't matter that much. I've been immersed in all three. I prefer fast travel with the possibility of slow travel in an open world, but having instant travel between zones hasn't broken my feeling of immersion in a game.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

6/10/13 2:13:40 PM#184
Nothing kills immersion more than cash shops, and since most games seem to have those these days, that is basically the end of any hope for a UO/SWG style game or any game with meaningful immersion.
  ReallyNow10

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1647

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

 
OP  6/10/13 2:18:56 PM#185
Originally posted by Burntvet
Nothing kills immersion more than cash shops, and since most games seem to have those these days, that is basically the end of any hope for a UO/SWG style game or any game with meaningful immersion.

There will always be some immersion-killing elements (cash shops, mob respawns, etc...), but there are little things you can put in to pump up immersion at minimal hassle (auto-depleting food stored in backpacks, rest buff for hanging out at tavern, arrows for bows, etc...).

Heck, I wonder if stabling mounts should buff their speed for a time, and if you ride your mount too much, too far, it slows down and has to be stabled again. 

Anything that grants immersion is a trade off somewhere, and the point is to find the sweet spots of what works and what does not.  And sure, players are different, but groups of players can be calibrated for, I think.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5547

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/10/13 3:32:01 PM#186

Deivos you need to acknowledge that action combat cannot be done in large scale. Therefore instances is a natural fit for such games. Or do you think it is merely a coincidence that most action combat games are largely instanced? If minimizing the world is not trend, and I don't think it is, action combat definitely is.

It is far more attractive than to just watching dice rolls and auto attack animations although that style has its fans too. It works in some games.

Then again, relying on instances doesn't mean there's no world.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

6/10/13 4:22:39 PM#187

Planetside begs to differ.

 

What you just referenced is tech, the back end capability of the game. And inaccurately.

Action can be done in large scale, but it's vastly easier to compartmentalize it. People don't need to make a better server or better game architecture if the game itself is just made smaller.

It's not coincidence, it's developers looking for the cost effective (simplest) solution. Minimizing the game world via instances and containing the game elements is consequently a choice made because it's way less effort than implementing a better game architecture.

 

EDIT: To explain a bit better I can reference four titles. Fury, APB, Mortal Online, and MAG.

All four are games built on the Unreal Engine.

 

Fury was built directly on the built in architecture of the game engine, and it made it abundantly clear that the engine was not prepared to support a server with partitions the way they were trying to use it for Fury. It caused a lot of networking issues as they wanted to process more player information than the engine was prepared to sort.

 

APB had elements rewritten to remedy this, but their solutions were not able to overcome some of the inherent limitations of the networking layer in the game engine, so instead they used workaround in the gameplay and assets to carry less information through the server. Even then they still had to instance off the game world.

 

Mortal Online benefited from Epic Games Titan project to develop a plugin for the engine that can enable MMO play. If you haven't followed the history of that game, it's had issues.

 

And then there's MAG. The title where Sony gutted the networking layer and rewrote it themselves so that they could support the play of 256 concurrent players shooting one another with proper weapon physics and a bunch of random abilities/tech in the same area.

 

Sony didn't build MAG, Planetside, and Planetside 2 in a cave, using boxes of scraps. They aren't unique masterminds containing all the secrets to making this.

The principle upon which they exist might be out of reach for a small developer to pull off, but there are many dev groups and many publishers that can support the creation of very much the same mechanics, but simply refuse to.

 

The claim it can't be done, is only made by those not willing to do it. It can be done, it has been done, it's simply that there are far easier solutions. Each of these solutions has a considerably impact on the design of the game world and the experience players get out of it. That goes a long way too towards influencing the perception of the games immersive factors.

 

The other factor being, this means very much that the choice to minimize the game world is not entirely one of necessity/consequence to whether or not the game is 'action' or not. It's a compromise to avoid cost and effort. As it relates to the game world, it means the minimization of the game world isn't entirely necessary but a choice born out of simplicity. It's part of the trend in these titles as a consequence, where it doesn't have to be.

 

Not gonna disagree with your last comment.

 

And Lizard.

I can only chalk this up to perspective then, as I see the minimization of the world in these titles to have a direct impact on how travel is perceived. It is effectively making every time you move into an instance into a 'teleport anywhere' scenario, except I wouldn't call it such as I find that to be a terrible characterization.

Hence my previously mentioned alternative of 'Travel vs No Travel', and how these games exist on the opposing end of the spectrum from open world games advocating travel without expedited means (aka fast travel, warping, etc).

The question you present now, and that Axehilt presented before, stands to assume travel characterized in a very particular way with a particular world concept.

Perhaps playing the likes of Neverwinter, Vindictus, DDO, or another in the same category a wee bit would help you to understand my point a bit better, as these titles exist in a very different form from that of Guild Wars, WoW, Everquest etc.

I do not aim to change your opinion on the matter if you simply disagree with the notion at this point. I can only state that this is my perception of it as I see these kinds of games being made more often now and their contrast to the other kinds of MMOs I find consequential to finding what one considers immersive or a fair balance.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

6/11/13 12:56:11 PM#188
Originally posted by lizardbones


The question is, is that instant travel option likely to happen in an MMORPG, and is it likely to be accepted by the MMORPG populace? In keeping with the thread's subject, are more players likely to maintain immersion with slow travel, fast travel or instant travel?


 

It is pretty obvious that instant travel is the dominant choice. Have you ever been in a group that someone suggests we should walk to the dungeon instead of click and queue?

Not even once.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

6/11/13 12:59:44 PM#189
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Burntvet
Nothing kills immersion more than cash shops, and since most games seem to have those these days, that is basically the end of any hope for a UO/SWG style game or any game with meaningful immersion.

There will always be some immersion-killing elements (cash shops, mob respawns, etc...), but there are little things you can put in to pump up immersion at minimal hassle (auto-depleting food stored in backpacks, rest buff for hanging out at tavern, arrows for bows, etc...).

Heck, I wonder if stabling mounts should buff their speed for a time, and if you ride your mount too much, too far, it slows down and has to be stabled again. 

Anything that grants immersion is a trade off somewhere, and the point is to find the sweet spots of what works and what does not.  And sure, players are different, but groups of players can be calibrated for, I think.

Arrows were taken out of WOW because it is a hassle.

auto-deplete food? What is the point .. it may as well not be there.

need to stable mounts? I can hear the QQing about it as a chore now. Or conversely, it may not matter if most just cilck & queue their dungeons.

Calibration already happened. The market speaks and LFD has become a standard feature. That should tell you something.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

6/11/13 1:04:46 PM#190


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones The question is, is that instant travel option likely to happen in an MMORPG, and is it likely to be accepted by the MMORPG populace? In keeping with the thread's subject, are more players likely to maintain immersion with slow travel, fast travel or instant travel?  
It is pretty obvious that instant travel is the dominant choice. Have you ever been in a group that someone suggests we should walk to the dungeon instead of click and queue?

Not even once.




Yes, it's certainly a popular choice, but you didn't answer the question about immersion. We can assume that developers aren't going to know if players are really immersed in the game or not, only that they keep playing. So if there is an instant travel option, does it break immersion for most players?

I would answer, "No, not really". Traveling from city to city in WoW through portals didn't seem to be an immersion breaker, and was a welcome alternative to trying to travel via flying boats that took forever. At the same time, traveling the long way to opposing faction territory gave the trip some weight and made it seem a bit more epic. Especially since you had to fight your way through opposing faction guards most of the way.

So I don't think any one option outshines the others in terms of immersion.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

6/11/13 1:18:25 PM#191


Originally posted by Deivos
And Lizard.

I can only chalk this up to perspective then, as I see the minimization of the world in these titles to have a direct impact on how travel is perceived. It is effectively making every time you move into an instance into a 'teleport anywhere' scenario, except I wouldn't call it such as I find that to be a terrible characterization.

Hence my previously mentioned alternative of 'Travel vs No Travel', and how these games exist on the opposing end of the spectrum from open world games advocating travel without expedited means (aka fast travel, warping, etc).

The question you present now, and that Axehilt presented before, stands to assume travel characterized in a very particular way with a particular world concept.

Perhaps playing the likes of Neverwinter, Vindictus, DDO, or another in the same category a wee bit would help you to understand my point a bit better, as these titles exist in a very different form from that of Guild Wars, WoW, Everquest etc.

I do not aim to change your opinion on the matter if you simply disagree with the notion at this point. I can only state that this is my perception of it as I see these kinds of games being made more often now and their contrast to the other kinds of MMOs I find consequential to finding what one considers immersive or a fair balance.




Is Ok. I tend to nitpick details on forums and I also tend to not do much 'historical' reading in threads. I'll start at some point in a thread and move forward, not back. It might help me if you summarized what your original point was (if you want). :-)

I still don't see how any of this has anything to do with immersion and a game mechanic. All of the games you mentioned can be immersive for the people who play them. They could even all be immersive for a single player who plays all of them.

The idea that a particular game feature is universally immersive or universally breaks immersion is wrong because immersion is an individual state of mind resulting from the individual's triggers.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

6/11/13 1:38:08 PM#192
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones The question is, is that instant travel option likely to happen in an MMORPG, and is it likely to be accepted by the MMORPG populace? In keeping with the thread's subject, are more players likely to maintain immersion with slow travel, fast travel or instant travel?  
It is pretty obvious that instant travel is the dominant choice. Have you ever been in a group that someone suggests we should walk to the dungeon instead of click and queue?

 

Not even once.




Yes, it's certainly a popular choice, but you didn't answer the question about immersion. We can assume that developers aren't going to know if players are really immersed in the game or not, only that they keep playing. So if there is an instant travel option, does it break immersion for most players?

I would answer, "No, not really". Traveling from city to city in WoW through portals didn't seem to be an immersion breaker, and was a welcome alternative to trying to travel via flying boats that took forever. At the same time, traveling the long way to opposing faction territory gave the trip some weight and made it seem a bit more epic. Especially since you had to fight your way through opposing faction guards most of the way.

So I don't think any one option outshines the others in terms of immersion.

 

No i didn't answer that question because i don't know the answer. The fact that LFD/instance travel is popular can mean:

a) it *is* immersion breaking, but most don't care about immersion, or

b) it is not immersion breaking.

Without more information, no one knows which is which.

  ReallyNow10

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1647

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

 
OP  6/11/13 3:04:54 PM#193
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones The question is, is that instant travel option likely to happen in an MMORPG, and is it likely to be accepted by the MMORPG populace? In keeping with the thread's subject, are more players likely to maintain immersion with slow travel, fast travel or instant travel?  
It is pretty obvious that instant travel is the dominant choice. Have you ever been in a group that someone suggests we should walk to the dungeon instead of click and queue?

 

Not even once.




Yes, it's certainly a popular choice, but you didn't answer the question about immersion. We can assume that developers aren't going to know if players are really immersed in the game or not, only that they keep playing. So if there is an instant travel option, does it break immersion for most players?

I would answer, "No, not really". Traveling from city to city in WoW through portals didn't seem to be an immersion breaker, and was a welcome alternative to trying to travel via flying boats that took forever. At the same time, traveling the long way to opposing faction territory gave the trip some weight and made it seem a bit more epic. Especially since you had to fight your way through opposing faction guards most of the way.

So I don't think any one option outshines the others in terms of immersion.

 

No i didn't answer that question because i don't know the answer. The fact that LFD/instance travel is popular can mean:

a) it *is* immersion breaking, but most don't care about immersion, or

b) it is not immersion breaking.

Without more information, no one knows which is which.

"Path of least resistance" is more popular, although not necessarily more fun or immersive.

Example:

Imagine a game about the Old Western Frontier in 19th century America.

In one implementation, to go West, you have to load up the Conastoga wagon with supplies and head out there.  Over quite some time, you encounter other settlers, river pirates on the Mississippi, hostile natives further west, fur trappers, cattle drives, and finally a dusty Old West town you choose to settle down near.  Lots of effort involved in getting there and fun and immersive along the way.

In a second implementation, to go West you step onto an insta-portal and telelport immediately to that Old West town.  You skip the challenges and efforts of heading West, but you also miss out on all the adventures in between, and any sense of accomplishment you might have gained.

I think the reality of MMORPG design is that some times your character works.  There has to be the effort, the occasional mundane or setback in order to truly appreciate the thrill of when things start moving into fast action.  If a game is all port/pop/shoot/swing, the action becomes dull very quickly, and meaningless even.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

6/11/13 3:08:00 PM#194
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones The question is, is that instant travel option likely to happen in an MMORPG, and is it likely to be accepted by the MMORPG populace? In keeping with the thread's subject, are more players likely to maintain immersion with slow travel, fast travel or instant travel?  
It is pretty obvious that instant travel is the dominant choice. Have you ever been in a group that someone suggests we should walk to the dungeon instead of click and queue?

 

Not even once.




Yes, it's certainly a popular choice, but you didn't answer the question about immersion. We can assume that developers aren't going to know if players are really immersed in the game or not, only that they keep playing. So if there is an instant travel option, does it break immersion for most players?

I would answer, "No, not really". Traveling from city to city in WoW through portals didn't seem to be an immersion breaker, and was a welcome alternative to trying to travel via flying boats that took forever. At the same time, traveling the long way to opposing faction territory gave the trip some weight and made it seem a bit more epic. Especially since you had to fight your way through opposing faction guards most of the way.

So I don't think any one option outshines the others in terms of immersion.

 

No i didn't answer that question because i don't know the answer. The fact that LFD/instance travel is popular can mean:

a) it *is* immersion breaking, but most don't care about immersion, or

b) it is not immersion breaking.

Without more information, no one knows which is which.

"Path of least resistance" is more popular, although not necessarily more fun or immersive.

Example:

Imagine a game about the Old Western Frontier in 19th century America.

In one implementation, to go West, you have to load up the Conastoga wagon with supplies and head out there.  Over quite some time, you encounter other settlers, river pirates on the Mississippi, hostile natives further west, fur trappers, cattle drives, and finally a dusty Old West town you choose to settle down near.  Lots of effort involved in getting there and fun and immersive along the way.

In a second implementation, to go West you step onto an insta-portal and telelport immediately to that Old West town.  You skip the challenges and efforts of heading West, but you also miss out on all the adventures in between, and any sense of accomplishment you might have gained.

I think the reality of MMORPG design is that some times your character works.  There has to be the effort, the occasional mundane or setback in order to truly appreciate the thrill of when things start moving into fast action.  If a game is all port/pop/shoot/swing, the action becomes dull very quickly, and meaningless even.

How do you know it is not more fun?

"path of least resistance" means very little. If it is not fun, why would people play a game at all?

Personally, action is much more fun than walking around doing nothing. And if you can encounter pirates and stuff, just skip to that, and forget the non-fun part.

If people think it is less fun, or they care enough about immersion, they won't choose instant travel. I don't know about you .. i only choose the fun choice in games. Anything else seem to be a defeat of purpose.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1372

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

6/11/13 3:09:21 PM#195


Originally posted by ReallyNow10
...There has to be the effort, the occasional mundane or setback in order to truly appreciate the thrill of when things start moving into fast action. If a game is all port/pop/shoot/swing, the action becomes dull very quickly, and meaningless even.


Yes, exactly.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 794

6/11/13 3:14:02 PM#196

Completely agree! 

There is a lot of travel in Fallen Earth even with the portals.   So if someone asks you to group you need to weigh the distances and how difficult it will be to get there.   And while travelling, you will run into resistance and most likely stop a few times to check something out or find a hidden mission.   It really makes you feel you are in a world, when you you actually have to ride or drive across and you see how large it really is.

Its a nice break from all the killing and sometimes its good just to kick back and enjoy the scenery!

 

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 794

6/11/13 3:17:38 PM#197
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones The question is, is that instant travel option likely to happen in an MMORPG, and is it likely to be accepted by the MMORPG populace? In keeping with the thread's subject, are more players likely to maintain immersion with slow travel, fast travel or instant travel?  
It is pretty obvious that instant travel is the dominant choice. Have you ever been in a group that someone suggests we should walk to the dungeon instead of click and queue?

 

Not even once.




Yes, it's certainly a popular choice, but you didn't answer the question about immersion. We can assume that developers aren't going to know if players are really immersed in the game or not, only that they keep playing. So if there is an instant travel option, does it break immersion for most players?

I would answer, "No, not really". Traveling from city to city in WoW through portals didn't seem to be an immersion breaker, and was a welcome alternative to trying to travel via flying boats that took forever. At the same time, traveling the long way to opposing faction territory gave the trip some weight and made it seem a bit more epic. Especially since you had to fight your way through opposing faction guards most of the way.

So I don't think any one option outshines the others in terms of immersion.

 

No i didn't answer that question because i don't know the answer. The fact that LFD/instance travel is popular can mean:

a) it *is* immersion breaking, but most don't care about immersion, or

b) it is not immersion breaking.

Without more information, no one knows which is which.

"Path of least resistance" is more popular, although not necessarily more fun or immersive.

Example:

Imagine a game about the Old Western Frontier in 19th century America.

In one implementation, to go West, you have to load up the Conastoga wagon with supplies and head out there.  Over quite some time, you encounter other settlers, river pirates on the Mississippi, hostile natives further west, fur trappers, cattle drives, and finally a dusty Old West town you choose to settle down near.  Lots of effort involved in getting there and fun and immersive along the way.

In a second implementation, to go West you step onto an insta-portal and telelport immediately to that Old West town.  You skip the challenges and efforts of heading West, but you also miss out on all the adventures in between, and any sense of accomplishment you might have gained.

I think the reality of MMORPG design is that some times your character works.  There has to be the effort, the occasional mundane or setback in order to truly appreciate the thrill of when things start moving into fast action.  If a game is all port/pop/shoot/swing, the action becomes dull very quickly, and meaningless even.

How do you know it is not more fun?

"path of least resistance" means very little. If it is not fun, why would people play a game at all?

Personally, action is much more fun than walking around doing nothing. And if you can encounter pirates and stuff, just skip to that, and forget the non-fun part.

If people think it is less fun, or they care enough about immersion, they won't choose instant travel. I don't know about you .. i only choose the fun choice in games. Anything else seem to be a defeat of purpose.

 

And this would explain a lot about why you constantly jump from game to game as well Nari.    You are the definition of the guy who eats the frosting off the cake and leaves the rest.

No big deal if thats what you like but I prefer to eat all my food!

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1372

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

6/11/13 3:40:25 PM#198


Originally posted by Boneserino
And this would explain a lot about why you constantly jump from game to game as well Nari. You are the definition of the guy who eats the frosting off the cake and leaves the rest.

No big deal if thats what you like but I prefer to eat all my food!



That would explain the hyper-activity too. Less frosting, Nari!.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

6/11/13 4:11:37 PM#199
Originally posted by Boneserino
 

And this would explain a lot about why you constantly jump from game to game as well Nari.    You are the definition of the guy who eats the frosting off the cake and leaves the rest.

No big deal if thats what you like but I prefer to eat all my food!

Yes, that is what i like. There is no reasoning i should not only eat the best parts. Forgive me, but i am not filling myself up with bread and detract my enjoyment from the steak.

And yes, i like to jump from steak, to lobster, to foie gras (damn the CA ban), and so on.

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2650

6/11/13 4:25:18 PM#200

I think the problem is that in my opinion, a MMO is not supposed to be a 100% non-stop action thrill ride.  It is supposed to be a mix, that offers plenty of fun and thrills, but it also a world that offers side things, like housing, crafting, harvesting...Those activities are generally not a thrill ride, but they offer the world 'substance'.  Some only want the thrill ride, but I think this blurs the line of what a mmo is.

 

People do not like definitions on what a game is, but with anything that can be hybridized, like a comedy and action movie, if you have both, it can be a action/comedy, too much of one, it is not both.  Too much single player amenities, you lose the MMO imo.

 

Now you can not care what something is categorized as, and want it to just be fun, and that is fine, but their are different types of games for a reason, because you expect certain types of things from that type of game. 

 

People look for different types of immersion, in different types of games, in a FPS game, you are more worried about feeling like you are part of the combat, how real things look/sound, quality of combat/graphics.  In a traditional mmo, you usually worry more aspects that are not part of the combat.

 

The long and short of it is, immersion expectations are driven by what you want the game to be, traditional mmo, lobby mmo, fps mmo, or just a lobby/single player game of various types.

 

I do not think trying to be everything, for everyone works, you end up with a bastardized product that ends up not doing any of it too well imo.  So you gotta aim/shoot and pick your audience, which cannot be 'everyone'.

 

11 Pages First « 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 » Search