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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Hardcore players? Hardcore games? Have Casuals taken it too far?

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186 posts found
  Krimzin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 504

6/07/13 8:03:04 PM#121


Originally posted by Vorch
It comes down to this...who has more money to spend?

"Casual players" (hate this overused term) are apparently the ones spending the most money...and it is relatively easy to make content for them.

There are SO MANY types of hardcore players (raiders, dungeon divers, farmers, PvE-ers, PvPers, RvRers, etc) that make up a SMALLER population of players relative to casuals that it is often difficult to make content to suit them all.

 

So do you make content  for those who are willing to spend more money and have greater numbers?

Or do you make content for those who are will to spend more TIME in the game and have smaller numbers?

Or maybe there is a way we can all co-exist...


Vorch that is a valid statement.

You missed one thing though.

Casual players spend more money when they actually play.
The hardcore players are the ones who don't jump ship every time the wind blows.

Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.


It's an Orange thing

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1108

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

6/07/13 8:04:32 PM#122
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I don't think I've ever seen anyone state they prefer to solo and like to raid.

That pretty much sums me up.  I'm in a guild.  But typically not on when the guildies are on.  So I solo and dont yearn to quest with my guildmates. Questing is personal to me.  I want to do it at my own pace.  What happens if I want to go fishing or do something else when the person you are playing wants to go on to the next quest or do something else?  It gets problematic and I dont think people really look at that.

On the other end raiding is hella fun.  But its specific.  You are with yoru guildmates or friends for a specific purposes of taking down some massive monster.  You have to work in cohesion and as a team.  learning how to do that and reaching the achievement of taking down the raid boss is exciting.

I don't see why you think they have to be mutually exclusive.

  MMORPGRIP

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/13
Posts: 90

6/07/13 8:08:22 PM#123
Originally posted by Vorch

It comes down to this...who has more money to spend?

"Casual players" (hate this overused term) are apparently the ones spending the most money...and it is relatively easy to make content for them.

There are SO MANY types of hardcore players (raiders, dungeon divers, farmers, PvE-ers, PvPers, RvRers, etc) that make up a SMALLER population of players relative to casuals that it is often difficult to make content to suit them all.

 

So do you make content  for those who are willing to spend more money and have greater numbers?

Or do you make content for those who are will to spend more TIME in the game and have smaller numbers?

Or maybe there is a way we can all co-exist...

They can make the same money on both...it would just be over a longer period of time with the vet crowd (Via monthly sub options.

 

Basically I see it as....

 

- Casuals: Hop games after a few months...but spend a lot on cash shop items, box price and and other extras.

- Vets: Stay with the game months/years (If good of course) on the box price and a monthly sub fee (Plus expansions).

 

But co-existence will probably never happen as neither side can agree on anything...and whichever side got more attention, the other side would whine excessively until neither side has what they want, population goes down due to game breaking garbage, game dies.

 

But companies rather get the money fast...so....here we are.

  Vorch

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 808

6/07/13 8:11:22 PM#124
Originally posted by Krimzin

 


Originally posted by Vorch
It comes down to this...who has more money to spend?

 

"Casual players" (hate this overused term) are apparently the ones spending the most money...and it is relatively easy to make content for them.

There are SO MANY types of hardcore players (raiders, dungeon divers, farmers, PvE-ers, PvPers, RvRers, etc) that make up a SMALLER population of players relative to casuals that it is often difficult to make content to suit them all.

 

So do you make content  for those who are willing to spend more money and have greater numbers?

Or do you make content for those who are will to spend more TIME in the game and have smaller numbers?

Or maybe there is a way we can all co-exist...


 

Vorch that is a valid statement.

You missed one thing though.

Casual players spend more money when they actually play.
The hardcore players are the ones who don't jump ship every time the wind blows.

I wasn't clear, but yes, hardcore players will spend more TIME in game. However, they do not spend more MONEY as a population compared to casuals. In GENERAL,  they are using more server resources while paying less money. Casuals will pay for cool, cute, and quirky items, but not play as often...thus utilizing fewer server resources while paying MORE money...

In fact, the only way to get money consistently from the hardcore crowd has been the P2P model, which has been shown to only work in rare cases, as opposed to the B2P, F2P, and Freemium models. I'm basing this on monetization numbers from Nexon, NCSoft, and PerfectWorld.

What we are seeing is an industry trying to find a balance...you want a hardcore base to keep your game populated, but you also want people actually BUYING things for your game. And appealing 100% to hardcore audiences simply doesn't cut it in 2013.

"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

6/08/13 10:53:15 AM#125
Originally posted by Vorch

I wasn't clear, but yes, hardcore players will spend more TIME in game. However, they do not spend more MONEY as a population compared to casuals. In GENERAL,  they are using more server resources while paying less money. Casuals will pay for cool, cute, and quirky items, but not play as often...thus utilizing fewer server resources while paying MORE money...

In fact, the only way to get money consistently from the hardcore crowd has been the P2P model, which has been shown to only work in rare cases, as opposed to the B2P, F2P, and Freemium models. I'm basing this on monetization numbers from Nexon, NCSoft, and PerfectWorld.

What we are seeing is an industry trying to find a balance...you want a hardcore base to keep your game populated, but you also want people actually BUYING things for your game. And appealing 100% to hardcore audiences simply doesn't cut it in 2013.

This is a great point, one I never really thought about before.

I really think the answer is simple - multiple server types or difficulty settings.

In the old days where servers were expensive and you pretty much had dedicated hardware for a single shard/world - it probably didn't make sense to offer up tons of different server rule sets.

But now, servers are cheap, everything is virtual and resources are dynamically shared across mega-powerful and affordable hosts...

Why would it be SO bad to spin up a VM for a hardcore shard?

As long as the developer stated plainly that "hey, here is this new hardcore rule set server for ya'll. It may not be balanced, and based on population we WILL NOT be spending as much dev time on it, but we'll do our best to make ya'll happy too."

I'd totally believe that would work.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  uggeh12

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/20/06
Posts: 44

6/08/13 11:08:20 AM#126
Originally posted by Krimzin

 


Originally posted by DamonVile
Most games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.

 

Also look for the guild who recruits everyone that asks, doesn't care if you show up or not to raid, has all the drama in chat and is constantly whining about content being to hard.. that will be the casual guild.

Give me Progression raiding any day of the week.

Or you could find a guild full of like minded people who enjoy playing the game (read: Normal Non-Sociopaths) and bypass the children and elitist douchebags altogether.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

6/09/13 10:33:17 AM#127
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Personally i never think there is any real achievement in games. Achievement in games are all illusion the devs create for players to have fun. Nothing more nothing else.

I don't know... I think atleast e-sports achievements are worth to take notice.

True. i was talking mostly about pve. All pve challenges are set up by devs, and they make sure if you spend the time, you can beat it . that is really not a true achievement in my beliefs.

The only reason why e-sport is different .. is because you beat others .. kind of like chess. I put "world-first" in this category, because to beat a raid "world first", you can beating the other raiders, not the raid itself.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

6/09/13 10:34:33 AM#128
Originally posted by uggeh12
Originally posted by Krimzin

 


Originally posted by DamonVile
Most games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.

 

Also look for the guild who recruits everyone that asks, doesn't care if you show up or not to raid, has all the drama in chat and is constantly whining about content being to hard.. that will be the casual guild.

Give me Progression raiding any day of the week.

Or you could find a guild full of like minded people who enjoy playing the game (read: Normal Non-Sociopaths) and bypass the children and elitist douchebags altogether.

Too much work, and too much drama. I have done it before and it wasn't that much fun. Progression guild is the worse in terms of commitment and drama.

Just do LFR, or solo and by-pass all those nonsense.

 

  Zzad

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/14/11
Posts: 1285

6/09/13 10:43:15 AM#129
Originally posted by chrisatron

Look, if you don't have the time to commit to an MMO then you shouldn't play an MMO, simple.

Well... I don´t have time to play a "hardcore" MMO that´s why I choose to play a casual friendly MMO....  The thing is that people like you cry a river on developers for delivering for casuals too....

You want every MMO that comes out to fit your playstyle? To be clones? Raids in all MMOs? Vertical gear progression? Instant kill an enemy because you are equipped with that super-dupper weapon of yours that took you months to adquire? Thnx to God there are"different"  games  for "different" kinds of players...

If you don´t like Casual MMOs go play something else buddy...or stick to your super hardcore game forever ;)

PS:

MMOs these days,like GW2,have casual appeal but also hardcore grinding for those who love it (Legendaries,fractals,,,)

Hope you find your game and enjoy it,but plz let the rest also enjoy theirs.

  exdeathbr

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 120

6/10/13 7:48:09 AM#130

People are talking about the definition on hardcore and casual here.

Well, the definition I use is that:

There are 3 types of players, usual ones, casual and hardcore.

The definitions of those words have to do with the fun to complexity ratio.

Hardcore can find fun in games with extreme complexity to fun ratio.

Casual, will only play (or will prefer) games with low complexity to fun ratio.

The usual gamers are all other games.

  pkpkpk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 74

6/10/13 8:39:45 AM#131
People have been saying this for years. It's not going to happen. I always find it strange, I remember how bad and easy games were turning out on the PS2 and thinking to myself, it's a wonder that MMORPGs aren't like this yet! Fast forward to Wrath of the Lich King and Warhammer Online and they were.  So, no surprise really. Games have been getting easier and easier since the early '90s. Only PC games have really been exempt from this for so long. But the pendulum on that shifted many years ago.
  GranDux

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/13
Posts: 57

6/10/13 8:53:59 AM#132

The developers no longer cater to the hard-core/actual gamers. Now *everyone* is a gamer. The reason why games are so shallow today is because the game industry is relying on pretty graphics and not actual play. If it is play then it's generic and mundane concepts taken from other games time and time again.

Remember the arcade days? Those games had hideous graphics but the games had to be challenging. Forced developers to be creative with what limited tools they had back then and players had to know what their doing to be good at the game.

Nowadays games are like instant microwave meals. Quick and easy but hardly satisfying and often filled with fat and calories. Much hand-holding or easy modes with very little to no real challenges. Lots of cuddles. No real loses. No risks. Everything predefined in an easy and predictable package.

It's for profit. Too many hands are in the cookie jar of gaming and everyone wants a piece of the $$$ pie now. When there is a mass production of a certain items there is a tendency of the quality of that item to go down. The technology is evolving but the concept is trapped in hollywood and funco land. The games are becoming main-stream and are being built on cookie-cutter concepts. No more originality or daringness as much because no one wants to venture outside the comfort box.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10564

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/10/13 9:17:57 AM#133


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I don't think I've ever seen anyone state they prefer to solo and like to raid.


I prefer solo game play and I like raiding. I just don't like raiding as much as people who prefer raiding to solo game play. I'm probably the people that WoW was targeting when they implemented the LFR tool, except I had stopped playing WoW by then.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1360

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

6/10/13 10:50:27 AM#134


Originally posted by Krimzin
It just means they aren't social with YOU.


What an utterly moronic thing to say.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

6/10/13 12:29:31 PM#135
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I don't think I've ever seen anyone state they prefer to solo and like to raid.



I prefer solo game play and I like raiding. I just don't like raiding as much as people who prefer raiding to solo game play. I'm probably the people that WoW was targeting when they implemented the LFR tool, except I had stopped playing WoW by then.

 

I played LFR for a while (CATA) before i quit. In fact, if not for LFR, i would have quit much earlier. LFR took the dreadful drama, and commitment out of raid.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10564

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/10/13 1:26:45 PM#136


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I don't think I've ever seen anyone state they prefer to solo and like to raid.
I prefer solo game play and I like raiding. I just don't like raiding as much as people who prefer raiding to solo game play. I'm probably the people that WoW was targeting when they implemented the LFR tool, except I had stopped playing WoW by then.  
I played LFR for a while (CATA) before i quit. In fact, if not for LFR, i would have quit much earlier. LFR took the dreadful drama, and commitment out of raid.



When leveling up and grouping up for dungeons, I did not mind spending the hours doing stuff. I took about a year to level to 70 on my first character. I had started other characters, and spent time doing different builds and what not, but mostly I just wasn't in any real hurry to do anything in particular. I was just playing the game.

Then we started raiding Karazan. Holy cats that was cool. We had a pretty tight knit group, mostly people from work, so there really wasn't very much drama, but I got tired of raiding a lot faster than everyone else. I just didn't feel like spending hours a night running things just to run more things. So, I'm being honest when I say I enjoy raiding, but I didn't enjoy the gear treadmill that came later.

Global Agenda's "raids" were cool. They were drop in and go, with clear goals and a lot of action. They were pretty nice.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2219

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

6/10/13 1:28:07 PM#137

A "casual" gamer, like a casual drug user, can take it or leave it.  A "hardcore" gamer, like a hardcore drug user, will do anything for it, pay anything for it, and forsake everything else for it.

Instead of "casual player," might we use the term "non-committal" player?  Both concepts seem to imply a person who vests little to no emotional interest in the thing.  In other words, prospective customers rather than committed customers.  The job of this industry is, has--and always will be--to turn these prospective "casual" gamers into hardcore, committed MMO junkies...hooked on their MMO rather than the competition's MMO.

Understanding this helps us to understand what they do.  To say that this genre produces "casual games" is not quite accurate.  Any game that gives you incentives for marathon raids, daily log-ins for quests, or spending money on virtual goods that can disappear on a whim is not a casual game...not by any stretch of the psychological imagination.

But they just don't look like hardcore games...they don't bill themselves as hardcore games.  Instead, they use "free to play" and tricks like that to entice casual gamers.  But the intent is to turn them into hardcore players once they have them.  And they do that by giving us incentives to go hardcore, spend hardcore money and play like a hardcore once we get psychologically "sold" on the game.

Is it true that they don't care about hardcores?  Yes and no.  Hardcores are already committed, so there is no use selling the game to them.  What they want is for the casual, non-committal players to become hardcore users of their games.  And the formula for that is really simple: make it look like a casual friendly game (Free to play, fantastic new player experience, promotional giveaways), but make it so the casual will want to go hardcore in order to become satisfied (Item store, zones, levels and gear chase, forum trolling, etc.).

Make sense?

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2219

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

6/10/13 1:42:24 PM#138
Originally posted by pkpkpk
People have been saying this for years. It's not going to happen. I always find it strange, I remember how bad and easy games were turning out on the PS2 and thinking to myself, it's a wonder that MMORPGs aren't like this yet! Fast forward to Wrath of the Lich King and Warhammer Online and they were.  So, no surprise really. Games have been getting easier and easier since the early '90s. Only PC games have really been exempt from this for so long. But the pendulum on that shifted many years ago.

You know, it's interesting that you say that.

I remember those days you talk about with the PS2.  That's when big budget action/adventure games like Tomb Raider and Legacy of Kain were king.  But towards the end of the 90s and the beginning of the 2000s, that genre got real stale.

Those were the days when you'd buy yet another overworked sequal like Parasite Eve II or Resident Evil III or Metal Gear Solid II, play it for one weekend, beat the game and go on to the next overworked sequal.

MMOs were a breath of fresh air.  Instead of running through yet another plot, MMOs gave us variety; it became many games in one.  It was also far less expensive; it gave us more value for our money.

Then, slowly but surely, all the things that made MMOs different from action/adventure titles seemed to vanish.  These days, they resemble the overworked action/adventure titles of the 90's, but with far less production value.  Ironically, I find more variety and gameplay value in the Mass Effect series or Fallout 3 than I find in today's MMOs.

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/10/13 1:48:24 PM#139
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP

I personally feel there is no such thing. Been gaming since 1982 on nearly every console game, PC's, the Arcade (When it was around...wish they still were), etc etc. I consider myself a gamer, nothing more. 

I think the term "hardcore gamer" started as a jab at those who prefer strategy or a bit higher level of difficulty to their games by those who prefer games otherwise.

Well my personal definition is "avid gamer", meaning deep investment in gaming.  (I used to even cut it off at a nice specific point too, like "Top 10% of players in terms of time-investment"; been a while since I really discussed the term though.)

A company I worked for used the term "self-identified gamer" which is certainly nice and measurable and based on whether someone is willing to describe themselves to others as a gamer.

I don't think we can say there's no such thing, we could only agree that it's a term without a solid definition to measure against.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4655

6/10/13 1:50:58 PM#140
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I don't think I've ever seen anyone state they prefer to solo and like to raid.



I prefer solo game play and I like raiding. I just don't like raiding as much as people who prefer raiding to solo game play. I'm probably the people that WoW was targeting when they implemented the LFR tool, except I had stopped playing WoW by then.

 

The reason ppl can say they like to solo and they also raid is because there is nothing social about LFR at all. Easy content and random groups that never need to talk.

At one time raiding was about a group of people looking to work together to over come pve content. The challenge was really found in the people not the content. LFR content is about putting in your 1-2 hrs and getting your participation reward.

 

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

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