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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Will it be full open-world PVP?

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250 posts found
  aspekx

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2153

6/09/13 2:47:57 AM#141

EVE is a success and in comparison with the size of the original company and its current state it could be said to be a huge success. but only in comparison with its origins, not in comparison with other games.

 

PvP servers in most of the games i have played over the years have contained a minority population. they tend to be some of the first to be shut down as a game's community begins to shrink.

 

there is no way SOE is going to bank the success of its longest lasting and most popular IP solely on FFA PvP, let alone full loot. having said that, there is most definitely a market for this. even a niche market is still one worth paying attention to especially in this case where FFA PvP'rs have been dying for a worthwhile game that allowed them the fun they want to have.

 

just as it would make no sense for EQNext to have nothing but FFA PvP it would also make absolutely no sense for them not to at least try to cater to this market by offering servers dedicated to FFA PvP.

 

i don't think this is an either/or situation. it seems obvious to me, and hopefully to SOE, that both communities can be served with the same game. but we shall see.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Dudehog

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/01/12
Posts: 119

6/09/13 3:10:30 AM#142
Originally posted by aspekx

EVE is a success and in comparison with the size of the original company and its current state it could be said to be a huge success. but only in comparison with its origins, not in comparison with other games.

  

 

Wrong. EVE has 500k paying subscribers. SWTOR, for example, has less than 500k paying subscribers. EVE is a hit compared to any other mmo out there (excluding WoW obviously). This is a fact, not opinion.  I can't understand why people make these statements when we all have access to Google and can look up the actual numbers. 

 

 

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/7/4309866/star-wars-the-old-republic-revenue-doubled-free-to-play

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/28/eve-online-hits-500-000-subscribers-heads-into-second-decade/

  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  6/09/13 7:26:28 AM#143
bcbully are you with me on this? we need the pvp as part of the true sandbox system.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

6/09/13 7:32:16 AM#144
Dudehog

While I agree eve is a huge success, its 10 years old and still one of the too mmos.

It actually has less players than ps2 - 750,000 unique weekly logins (though I suspect eve players play for longer sessions), and probably gw2, but its hard to tell arenanet don't put our figures.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

6/09/13 7:35:19 AM#145
I wonder if they do something like perpetuum where the equivelent of high sec is actually total security, no pvp at all.
  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  6/09/13 5:23:53 PM#146
so happy to see a few people defending the pvp concept. this game could be HUGE if it gets this right. i am disappointed by how the industry has gone wrong over so many years. that is where the innovation will come in. i think when the dev team were sitting aroud the table talking about the pillars of the holy grail mmo, they probably talked about makimg open world pvp work and make it fun for gamers.

as for the size of the market, i believe SOE can afford to take the risk because tis game will be on playstation 4 and people will flock to it. we are talking players who are starved for mmos because there arent many optioms on console or people who are new to mmos who habent been brainwashed by the mainstream paradigm where pvp is unnaturally turned off to placate the generation of gamers wo have been griefed in poorly conceived pvp systems.
  Faelsun

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/07
Posts: 482

6/10/13 4:02:26 AM#147
Originally posted by Panther2103

Originally posted by Bidwood
Originally posted by General_Dru-Zod

I certainly dont mind having my buildings / housing destroyed .. however if im offline and a wake up the next morning and its all gone in a matter of just a few hours then its a problem ...

I believe some type of offline defence is in order and also it shouldnt take 3 seconds to totally destruct my creations ..

I think the most effective "offline defence" in the world I described above is...  you build partnerships with other players and they fend off attackers.

Thats it?

Thats not very assuring..  I hope they have some kind of system set up other than "Hey bro, watch my stuff".

I'm just pulling this out of my ass - it seems to fit in with the theme of letting players decide what happens..  what would you propose? Being able to set up NPC defenses?

I think that is a good idea. Either that or just make things that are invulnerable for a certain period of time while offline (to prevent people just creating something then never logging in again). 

Well they will probably use some kind of phasing I imagine, who knows there are plenty of options today. However when I played UO you could get your property stolen when you were off.

On another note I find it humorous that your "idea" would basically take the last 15 years of mmo development, ignore it and just use game rules from Usurper BBS.

  fardreamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/03
Posts: 126

"Trust your feelings!"

6/10/13 4:56:17 AM#148

If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. 

 

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., 

 

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

  User Deleted
6/10/13 5:09:58 AM#149
Originally posted by fardreamer

If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. 

 

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., 

 

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

Just because previous sandboxes have had un-consensual PvP, does not mean that the two are mutually inclusive.  You can most certainly have a sandbox without PvP. 

In fact, the inclusion of un-consensual PvP is probably the main reason for the commercial failings of most sandbox games.  I doubt SoE will bank its biggest IP on a proven failure.  If they have it, it will be on a segregated server.

  sanshi44

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1040

6/10/13 5:09:58 AM#150
I can garantee there be PvE servers aswell as PvP servers (most likly a few different types of PvP servers aswell) there is no debating this, One of the post made awhile back said that EQN was designed with PvP in mind so its definetly focused on and not on the back burners like it was in EQ1 and 2 however they wont ignore the crowd of players wanting just PvE. So therefore they have both PvE and PvP servers they definetly have enough player based for muiltipal server types. What i hope they do not have is instanced PvP like battle grounds from WoW i dont like instances PvP or PvE kinda break immersion, I do hope on PvP servers they have some kinda PvP politic system with city building and seiging would be nice to see.
  jonrd463

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/09
Posts: 608

6/10/13 6:27:34 AM#151
Originally posted by fardreamer

If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. 

 

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., 

 

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

When I was a kid playing in the sandbox at the neighborhood park, I don't recall ever seeing anyone killing someone and taking their stuff.  Societal mores prevented that from happening, because it just isn't something that's done, and if it ever DID happen, serious life-altering consequences would fall on the perpetrator.

 

The problem with FFA, full loot PVP is that there is no real danger for the PKer in the game space. Societal mores take a back seat to internet sociopathy. There's no consequence, other than the off chance the victim has friends bigger and badder than the PKer. In the real world, we call that "law enforcement", and there's no analogue in an MMO. Archeage is tackling the problem in a curious way, and it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

 

When FFA PVP games provide a way for the lone player to level the playing field a bit against a gank squad, then I'll join the chorus. For now, as long as SOE includes a PVE server, preferably with enforced RP rules and the ability to engage in consensual PVP, I'll be happy.

"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  Domenicus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/05
Posts: 302

6/10/13 8:54:16 AM#152
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by fardreamer

If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. 

 

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., 

 

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

Just because previous sandboxes have had un-consensual PvP, does not mean that the two are mutually inclusive.  You can most certainly have a sandbox without PvP. 

In fact, the inclusion of un-consensual PvP is probably the main reason for the commercial failings of most sandbox games.  I doubt SoE will bank its biggest IP on a proven failure.  If they have it, it will be on a segregated server.

I would go farther... I would say that a Full Loot PvP without boundaries is exclusive of a sandbox MMO...

 

Sandbox MMO is a place where you can do everything you want, you can craft, you can pve, you can PvP, you can RP... You build a world and you play all sides of the genre as you wish... When you put Full Loot PvP you just jeopardize all others elements. You cant play if you are not a hardcore PvP, otherwise you will be ganked by Dudez12345loligankedyou ... The Open Full Loot PvP suck up all elements of the game, letting very little space for the ones who dont want to PvP, who want to explore, build something, etc... Sandbox is not arbitrary chaos, as it was explained before, but a controlled chaos, as it is in our world... Maybe a little more controlled...

 

EvE almost got it with their secure zones and null sector system...  You see, EvE is a Full Loot PvP but with boundaries.. The system has created a way to punish the gankers who prey on empire sector, therefore the people (pvers and crafters) can (almost) have much fun on empire sector (PvE) as in null sector (pvp). I said almost, because the null sector is still where the best things are for everyone, and thats their only flaw...  They force you to go to null sec in some point of your game.

  Domenicus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/05
Posts: 302

6/10/13 8:59:37 AM#153
Originally posted by jonrd463
Originally posted by fardreamer

If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. 

 

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., 

 

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

When I was a kid playing in the sandbox at the neighborhood park, I don't recall ever seeing anyone killing someone and taking their stuff.  Societal mores prevented that from happening, because it just isn't something that's done, and if it ever DID happen, serious life-altering consequences would fall on the perpetrator.

 

The problem with FFA, full loot PVP is that there is no real danger for the PKer in the game space. Societal mores take a back seat to internet sociopathy. There's no consequence, other than the off chance the victim has friends bigger and badder than the PKer. In the real world, we call that "law enforcement", and there's no analogue in an MMO. Archeage is tackling the problem in a curious way, and it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

 

When FFA PVP games provide a way for the lone player to level the playing field a bit against a gank squad, then I'll join the chorus. For now, as long as SOE includes a PVE server, preferably with enforced RP rules and the ability to engage in consensual PVP, I'll be happy.

Bingo!

And I'd just say that the one who want Full PvP, without boundaries, with no rules (and call it 'sandbox'),  can  play Call of Duty... If it has a PvP Full Loot without boundaries, it cant be called sandbox. Unless you call CoD as sandbox.

 

sandbox let you play with the sandbox and with their tools, as you wish.. Building, destroying (with consequences for both)

 

  MGPeterson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/17/04
Posts: 15

6/10/13 9:00:23 AM#154
Originally posted by satora54
Originally posted by cronius77

this is where I felt asherons call 2 really got it right. They had different types of servers of course but the most fun I had in that game was on the realm pvp server I forget the name now. You could basically attack anyone , anywhere that wasnt in your faction and the world around you was just mostly ruined small towns. A enhanced version of this would be a lot of fun where you have to rebuild the world but other players can also destroy it as well. The only main issue with this is many MANY everquest fans have no intention of doing any pvp at all and if you do not offer pve servers you can kiss any chance of making any money off this game goodbye. All you have to do is look at current sandbox pvp styled games like darkfall , mortal , Xsyon, shadowbane etc and see where all those are now.

A server for factional pvp im sure will release with this game but I highly doubt they will not release pve servers also. Smed likes to troll for publicity . Thats why you seen the perma death trolling comments on his twitter , I would take anything that man says with a grain of salt , hes not going to kill his business making a only open world pvp game and risk losing half his staff to layoffs.

And where are you getting this information about the Everquest PVP playerbase? 

I played on Vallon Zek until the merge and we ALWAYS had a healthy population and enjoyed the PvP. 

So don't speak for the Everquest Community.

I think he spoke for the EQ Community pretty well.  Most of us don't want to PvP. EQ was always about questing (PvE), not PvP.  Ever notice how EQ 1 & 2 both had limited PvP servers, maybe 1-2?  Liken PvP to a nich like RP, it's not a main focus in the title, it never has been and certainly never should be.

  Dullahan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 741

Death to Themepark.

6/10/13 9:09:38 AM#155
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by fardreamer

If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. 

 

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., 

 

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

Just because previous sandboxes have had un-consensual PvP, does not mean that the two are mutually inclusive.  You can most certainly have a sandbox without PvP. 

In fact, the inclusion of un-consensual PvP is probably the main reason for the commercial failings of most sandbox games.  I doubt SoE will bank its biggest IP on a proven failure.  If they have it, it will be on a segregated server.

The failings of sandbox games stem not from the PvP, but rather from the lack of PvE.

I've played all the sandbox MMOs that were worth a lick since UO, and every one lacked decent PvE or any meaningful pve at all.  I'm sorry, but you can only fight over resources and territory so much before it gets boring.  The games where you actually fought over PvE were actually far more interesting to me.  Some of the most exciting PvP I ever had was in dungeons in EQ, especially when it was raid vs raid fighting for a boss.  There needs to be both itemization from resources (crafting) and pve, and a reason to compete over both

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
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Awaiting The Repopulation, and Pantheon ROTF.

Intrigued by Star Citizen and Archeage.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Domenicus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/05
Posts: 302

6/10/13 9:25:16 AM#156
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by fardreamer

If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. 

 

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., 

 

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

Just because previous sandboxes have had un-consensual PvP, does not mean that the two are mutually inclusive.  You can most certainly have a sandbox without PvP. 

In fact, the inclusion of un-consensual PvP is probably the main reason for the commercial failings of most sandbox games.  I doubt SoE will bank its biggest IP on a proven failure.  If they have it, it will be on a segregated server.

The failings of sandbox games stem not from the PvP, but rather from the lack of PvE.

I've played all the sandbox MMOs that were worth a lick since UO, and every one lacked a decent PvE end game.  I'm sorry, but you can only fight over resources and territory so much before it gets boring.  The games where you actually fought over PvE were actually far more interesting to me.  Some of the most exciting PvP I ever had was in dungeons in EQ, especially when it was raid vs raid fighting for a boss.

I am sorry, but I think exactly on contrary... The falling of sandbox its the PvP, at least the Full Loot PvP without consequences. DFO, MO and others do not attract real sandbox players because there is a lot of sandbox players who do not want to be forced to PvP. In fact the foundation of sandbox, which is the crafter, mostly do not enjoy PvP (hell, some do not even enjoy PvE!!). You are right when you speak that the game became boring when you dont fight for resources. In fact, the games became boring if you just only fight for resources as well... Thats why I defend a model where you can have pvp, pve, rp and craft in all levels... And a sandbox who do not have PvP would get boring for a lot of people. In my model, you can have places where you can have full loot PvP, PvE, craft, RP all together and all separated. Or you do create real harsh consequences for the player who PvP on PVE area, or you just create zones where you can have fun the way you want.. EvE is the one who most closely came in which I think is perfect, the only flaw is that you have a real, very shallow limit to the fun on empire zone... You are kind of forced to go to null sec if you wish to have fun after some point. Thats their only mistake.

  Dullahan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 741

Death to Themepark.

6/10/13 9:57:17 AM#157

In a good sandbox pvp mmo, you can do all those things from the safety of your capital or your own city walls.  In the middle ages, the era from whence modern fantasy is derived, cities had builders, crafters, farmers as well as guards, knights and warriors.  There were raids and no one was ever completely safe, but in general the peasants did not fear for their lives walking through the city streets.

The misconception that an unrestricted pvp mmo implies that no one has any level of safety is false.  The fact that some games often fail to provide a more meaningful experience outside of combat, and the safety to enjoy other spheres of the game was merely a shortcoming of their game, not a definitive flaw in the PvP-sandbox model.

Perhaps they should offer safe zones within the walls of capitol cities, or perhaps games should incorporate a constable system where criminals are jailed for a period of time for mass murder.  Age of Wushu set up a pretty fantastic system in that respect, and while many players whine about having their character stuck on jail for hours on end, it actually makes PvP more meaningful when you have to pick and choose when and who you kill.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
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Awaiting The Repopulation, and Pantheon ROTF.

Intrigued by Star Citizen and Archeage.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Domenicus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/05
Posts: 302

6/10/13 10:14:29 AM#158
Originally posted by Dullahan

In a good sandbox pvp mmo, you can do all those things from the safety of your capital or your own city walls.  In the middle ages, the era from whence modern fantasy is derived, cities had builders, crafters, farmers as well as guards, knights and warriors.  There were raids and no one was ever completely safe, but in general the peasants did not fear for their lives walking through the city streets.

The misconception that an unrestricted pvp mmo implies that no one has any level of safety is false.  The fact that some games often fail to provide a more meaningful experience outside of combat, and the safety to enjoy other spheres of the game was merely a shortcoming of their game, not a definitive flaw in the PvP-sandbox model.

Perhaps they should offer safe zones within the walls of capitol cities, or perhaps games should incorporate a constable system where criminals are jailed for a period of time for mass murder.  Age of Wushu set up a pretty fantastic system in that respect, and while many players whine about having their character stuck on jail for hours on end, it actually makes PvP more meaningful when you have to pick and choose when and who you kill.

The problem is that the 'safety of your capital city' is a very limited place. Even EvE is limited in this way. High-sec zones are limited fun after some time. You need to have as much fun in your 'capital city'  as outside of it. Otherwise its just a matter of time the game became boring for those who dont want to PvP.

  dyermaker714

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/09
Posts: 178

6/10/13 11:07:34 AM#159
Originally posted by strangiato2112

Of course it wont be full open world PvP.  SoE isnt that stupid.

Im sure there will be a token full PvP server or two though.

That's All we ask :)

  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

 
OP  6/10/13 3:58:59 PM#160


Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by fardreamer If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.
When I was a kid playing in the sandbox at the neighborhood park, I don't recall ever seeing anyone killing someone and taking their stuff. Societal mores prevented that from happening, because it just isn't something that's done, and if it ever DID happen, serious life-altering consequences would fall on the perpetrator. The problem with FFA, full loot PVP is that there is no real danger for the PKer in the game space. Societal mores take a back seat to internet sociopathy. There's no consequence, other than the off chance the victim has friends bigger and badder than the PKer. In the real world, we call that "law enforcement", and there's no analogue in an MMO. Archeage is tackling the problem in a curious way, and it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. When FFA PVP games provide a way for the lone player to level the playing field a bit against a gank squad, then I'll join the chorus. For now, as long as SOE includes a PVE server, preferably with enforced RP rules and the ability to engage in consensual PVP, I'll be happy.

Horrible analogy. Killing a player in a sandbox game is more equivalent to smashing another kid's sand castle in a sandbox or breaking one of their toys. We've all seen that happen and it's a natural part of what happens between kids on the playground.


Originally posted by Dullahan In a good sandbox pvp mmo, you can do all those things from the safety of your capital or your own city walls. In the middle ages, the era from whence modern fantasy is derived, cities had builders, crafters, farmers as well as guards, knights and warriors. There were raids and no one was ever completely safe, but in general the peasants did not fear for their lives walking through the city streets. The misconception that an unrestricted pvp mmo implies that no one has any level of safety is false. The fact that some games often fail to provide a more meaningful experience outside of combat, and the safety to enjoy other spheres of the game was merely a shortcoming of their game, not a definitive flaw in the PvP-sandbox model. Perhaps they should offer safe zones within the walls of capitol cities, or perhaps games should incorporate a constable system where criminals are jailed for a period of time for mass murder. Age of Wushu set up a pretty fantastic system in that respect, and while many players whine about having their character stuck on jail for hours on end, it actually makes PvP more meaningful when you have to pick and choose when and who you kill.

I like the way you think.

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