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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Problem with MMOs- You Always Know It's a Game

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53 posts found
  crack_fox

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 402

6/09/13 5:51:07 AM#41
Originally posted by nariusseldon
It is about the adventure, not about living in a world. In fact, if you go back to pnp RPG, it is never about being in a big fantasy world with lots of people, it is always about 5 friends going through a dungeon adventure.

It's been a long time since I played pnp but yes, it was all about  the adventure. When we finished the session we might talk about various events in the game, how our characters reacted, how we narrowly escaped death etc. All of the memorable stuff. What we never talked about was the dice rolls, item stats and so forth because that sh*t was dull. Of course, we understood that such things were necessary to make the whole thing happen, but we played for the adventure and for the camaraderie not for bigger numbers and better gear.

It seems to me that for the majority of MMO gamers, this has become reversed; the 'adventure' has become something to be rushed through as quickly as possible in order to get bigger numbers and better gear. It may seem natural for gamers brought up on high scores and  league tables to develop such a narrow focus, but to me it rather misses the point. Obsessing over numbers and trying to exploit game mechanics for competitive advantage leads to the sort of endless griping over class balance, ninja-looting and pay-to-win items that infest game forums. I find it difficult to understand how such players can genuinely have fun when so much of their energy seems to be dedicated to complaining. Perhaps this is just a different kind of immersion for a different kind of player? If so, it seems a more harmful form of immersion than that associated with the kind of gamer who simply seeks to escape into a fantasy world for a few hours.  

That said, while I empathise strongly with the OP, it was our approach to those old pnp games that provided that immersion not the games themselves. They were just rule-sets that supplied a foundation for our collective imagining. You can't passively wait for a game to come along that will fulfill your requirements because that bus is never going to arrive. The keys to immersion in any kind of multi-player rpg are imagination and like-minded players, not the presence or absence of specific game mechanics. 

  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2833

6/09/13 5:57:08 AM#42
No matter how immersive an mmorpg is i'll never forget that it's just a game.
  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1926

6/09/13 6:15:47 AM#43
Originally posted by jonrd463

 

Bring back that sense of wonder, where a group gathers and says "Hey, let's check out what's over that horizon.", rather than "Hey, let's go do X dungeon, which lies in a series of other dungeons along the singular path that all must walk, and when we get good enough, we can walk the same path, only doing the Super-duper hardmode version of X dungeon along the way!"

Then you're talking mostly about sandboxes these days.

Themepark a.k.a. instance lobby MMOs are mostly about instant gratification, players do not want to waste prescious "raiding" time by actually travelling etc, they want instant zoning into a dungeon, get the job done asap and sit in a hotspot for hours jumping around and wondering why the game is so boring.

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  worldalpha

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/11
Posts: 401

Working hard on WorldAlpha

6/09/13 6:25:38 AM#44
Could this be said of any game?

Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1926

6/09/13 6:31:20 AM#45
Originally posted by worldalpha
Could this be said of any game?

Some developers stay true to their cause, most however want more and more $ to compete with bigger names and sell out.

Also MMOs that are on the decline need to give their players more and more to keep them active; so they get insta gratification which dumbs down the 'exploring a virtual world' experience.

Tbh, I can't think of a MMO -alive- today that is a virtual world without insta gratification, the sandboxes that I used to play or am playing today have done it as well somewhere along the path.

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22278

6/09/13 10:21:08 AM#46
Originally posted by Muke

Themepark a.k.a. instance lobby MMOs are mostly about instant gratification, players do not want to waste prescious "raiding" time by actually travelling etc, they want instant zoning into a dungeon, get the job done asap and sit in a hotspot for hours jumping around and wondering why the game is so boring.

 

What boring is camping all day and only get to fight the boss every 2 hours.

And what game is "so boring"? None of the LFD games i am playing is boring. If it is, i won't be playing it.

What i wonder is .. why it takes so many years for devs to figure out how to make games fun. They should have done it back in 99.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 7947

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

6/09/13 9:42:46 PM#47

It is oh so true and i personally try to forget it or i really get bored.

There is absolutely no progression in gaming,your player moves along at the same pace as the content,so level 60 feels exactly like level 1 did,with just more options.What actually happens is your player feels less powerful and less skilled as you level.

Look at crafting,it gets harder,slower and less viable.At level 1 you 2 hit kills,then at level 60 you need 10 hits and several actions/spells so you seem to be a weaker version of yourself than when you were level 1.The way games should work is you struggle a lot more as a level 1,after all you are suppose to be a noob,weak and have no skills in your arsenal.

The best we can do is make a really solid AI,without it the npc's look really bad and makes the game feel a lot worse.

I have no problem  with games all being geared base,however just like the rest of the design,it feels meaningless.Example at level ,i am a noob,i get hit for 2-10,at level 60 i am suppose to be wearing this super elite gear have all these abilities and buffs but i am taking 150 damage.

So that super RARE drop is treating you worse than the level 1 noob gear you entered the game with.How your player and gear works on NON relevant content is of course non relevant.SO just because that new gear works great versus level 1 mobs,it is meaningless to your character and the game's content that is relevant to your level.

My biggest pet peeve is when i spend 60/70/80 levels gaining all those great spells and abilities ,then the game makes the Boss immune to all of them.So they basically take all that hard work and time you spent building your player and reverse him back to ....yep you guessed it level 1 status.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Dauntis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/21/09
Posts: 524

6/09/13 11:01:50 PM#48
I think one thing that certainly contributes to a lack of immersion is that too many people play for end game instead of enjoying the journey. I enjoy exploring, bucking the quest chains and moving around on my own taking my time... you will find if you do this that there is often a whole world of other stuff happening in most MMOs. Racing to endgame is hardly immersive, that is like a 3 year-old who complains they can't wait to reach retirement.

I would like to give an opinion on this post, but if I agree I will offend people who disagree. While if I disagree my comment will be seen as inflammatory. Either way I will get banned by this site full of the most delicate flowers in online gaming. Ban people for giving honest opinions... beautiful. Unfortunately I still like the articles.

  WATSKI

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/12
Posts: 37

6/09/13 11:06:59 PM#49
Originally posted by Icewhite

Like most things in life, there's a scale of grey involved, not a lightswitch that turns on or off.

Yep, absolutely this. You're only as immersed as you allow yourself to be. Sure a game can help or can't help, but ultimately if you constantly think you're staring at a monitor trying to get the best formula, then that's all it's going to be.

 

Alternatively, have you tried Roleplaying as a Mathematician who is trying to find the best formula?

Aim Small, Miss Small.

  Apraxis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1518

6/10/13 5:49:10 AM#50
Originally posted by Wizardry

It is oh so true and i personally try to forget it or i really get bored.

There is absolutely no progression in gaming,your player moves along at the same pace as the content,so level 60 feels exactly like level 1 did,with just more options.What actually happens is your player feels less powerful and less skilled as you level.

Look at crafting,it gets harder,slower and less viable.At level 1 you 2 hit kills,then at level 60 you need 10 hits and several actions/spells so you seem to be a weaker version of yourself than when you were level 1.The way games should work is you struggle a lot more as a level 1,after all you are suppose to be a noob,weak and have no skills in your arsenal.

The best we can do is make a really solid AI,without it the npc's look really bad and makes the game feel a lot worse.

I have no problem  with games all being geared base,however just like the rest of the design,it feels meaningless.Example at level ,i am a noob,i get hit for 2-10,at level 60 i am suppose to be wearing this super elite gear have all these abilities and buffs but i am taking 150 damage.

So that super RARE drop is treating you worse than the level 1 noob gear you entered the game with.How your player and gear works on NON relevant content is of course non relevant.SO just because that new gear works great versus level 1 mobs,it is meaningless to your character and the game's content that is relevant to your level.

My biggest pet peeve is when i spend 60/70/80 levels gaining all those great spells and abilities ,then the game makes the Boss immune to all of them.So they basically take all that hard work and time you spent building your player and reverse him back to ....yep you guessed it level 1 status.

Yeap. That is really something which bothers me too. In UO it was somewhat right.

In the beginning your spells fizzled a lot, after some skill level not so often, or not at all(as with any other skill). That was a feeling of progression.

But the power gap between max level and noob was also not that huge, and all content was more or less available for all from the very beginning. With the difference that you could do a lot more with high skill levels, you felt more powerful, and you were enable to help out low level ones.. another kind of feeling the progression.

Therefore i am a advocate of a system with less vertical progression and more horizontal progression and no, or very less gated content. With a small power gap, but the feeling of progression, and to be able to play together with all players.

And for me this would work the best in a open sandbox world with more dynamic content. So that all content is available from the very beginning, but will dynamicly change over time, so that it will at least feel fresh evey time you encounter it.

 

  Asariasha

Novice Member

Joined: 8/05/11
Posts: 218

6/10/13 6:38:00 AM#51
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by jonrd463

Bring back that sense of wonder

How do you add wonder back into a jaded veteran, exactly?

Answer that, and you're halfway back home (at least for your individual answer).

 

The jaded veteran is only experienced in a certain field. Confront the veteran with something new and the newbie gazes to the new lands to explore.

Explanation: Some years ago I joined an officially accepted DAoC freeshard (NPO). Due to my long experience in playing MMOs and the gathered experience when developing an expansion, I lost something that I refer to as "magic of a game". When you know how something works it reaches a status of normality. When confronted with the same mechanics over and over again, the game becomes some sort of work due to repetitive game flow.

 

  pkpkpk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 74

6/10/13 8:58:24 AM#52

Thing is, if you have enough imagination, developers don't need to do anything more than create a world. Get a nice computer that can run the graphics on high. That should be immersion enough. Back when I first started online games it was all text, and the worlds were exactly the same as they are now. Sure, there was quite a bit more challenge, but yeah, pretty much the same. If you wanted more immersion, you role-played.

  kjempff

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 871

Make worlds not stories

6/10/13 9:14:14 AM#53

Amen. There are too many things that constantly take You out of the games context, out of character, out of the game world. Reminding You of time, reminding you of all kinds of technicalities that make up the game and especially its attemp to hold your hand so that you get a non-bumpy ride. So afraid of causing any kind of discomfort for anyone. It is not that games don't try to create a world or an environment, it is more that at the same time You are constantly pulled out of that world, and whatever kind of immersion they are trying to create.

It is sad all those great developers don't see this problem, but I beleive it takes an outsider to recognize such things.. Like a psychologist can give You guidelines You can't see for yourself. Players are often this outsider and can't understand why a developer aren't recognizing obvious problems and doing something about them.

"I am my connectome" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0

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