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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Perma-death in a MMORPG?

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263 posts found
  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3627

6/07/13 9:36:02 AM#221
I'd be fine with a permadeath system like this if it was PVE only...Once they put in PVP though taht 100 number becomes very reachable and possibly very quickly with some of these jerks today.
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/07/13 8:56:07 PM#222
Originally posted by Mkilbride

Been about a week.

 

Further thoughts?

I think people might still be a little dumbfounded when you claimed an indie game with 10k subs could be more profitable than LOTRO. Are you still sticking to that claim by the way?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 639

 
OP  6/07/13 9:39:29 PM#223
Of course, and it's completely true.

Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  zasten

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 287

6/07/13 9:56:20 PM#224

3 reason why it would never work:

Spend the rest of your time on the game playing low level content only, no thanks!

Spend hundreds of hours to develop a high level character only to have your character die due to yet more lag in an online game, would only lead to rage quitting, rather than re-rolling!

PVP (especially open world) would greatly reduce the amount of players willing to play!

  Lerxst

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/04
Posts: 499

6/07/13 10:14:42 PM#225

People shouldn't put down a perma death system, until they've actually tried a game with it.  Go play Rogue, Dwarf Fortress or Faster Than Light, then come back and revisit this thread - all good games, all addictive and all perma-death.

 

The ability to simply save and "redo" kills any game.  Even games with one-time choice systems have this same mechanic.  Play through the Fallout games as they should be, then go back and hack your game for max stats and see which is more fun and creates a better sense of immersion and tension.

 

The sense of adventure is what makes games fun and without any penalization for failure, the adventure goes down.  If I run into a cave and get mauled by a dragon, all I need to do is resurrect and not go back to the cave.  If I see that same cave but know a careless action could erase all the progress I've made up to that point, I'm actually going to sit back and strategize first.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/08/13 12:11:28 AM#226
Originally posted by Mkilbride
 
 

According to Turbine, only 2% of people who play a F2P MMO use the cash shop, these 2% are supporting the other 98% of players. 

So say LOTRO has 100,000 players. Reasonable number, I myself play it on occasion, but honestly it's pretty dead and I think 100,000 may be much. 

so 2% of 100,000 is 1,000 players buying cash shop items. Let us say they buy 50-60$ a month in the cash shop each. That's 50-60,000$. 

However, 10,000 players @ 9.99$ = 100,000 a month, and with the additional revenue, the ability for new content increases, as well as growth. 

Look at LOTRO. 500% increase in profits when it went F2P. Servers at the bursting. New ones added. One year after F2P, about 80% of the servers are closed, and the 20% remaining are near death. (I walked around for a few hours without finding anyone in the biggest cities in the game, on the most populated server, Brandywine.)

  So F2P is good for a game you want to make one last surge of cash off, that subscription is no longer supporting. But after that huge burst, it'll probably be earning less than before...but then they can just shut it down. I wouldn't be shocked if LOTRO went down by 2015 or earlier.

500% increase in profit is 500% increase in profit.  At all points, LOTRO made more profit.  It probably continues to make more than double what it would've made as a subscription game

Old games die, and LOTRO was always rather average and unexciting so it was going to be dead-ish by this point regardless of how it approached things.  But double profit when dead-ish is still double profit.

Regardless of scale, F2P is nearly always the vastly better business model.  Only in the MMORPG genre specifically is it even a debate.

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1832

6/09/13 3:49:59 AM#227
Originally posted by Theocritus
I'd be fine with a permadeath system like this if it was PVE only...Once they put in PVP though taht 100 number becomes very reachable and possibly very quickly with some of these jerks today.

This. As soon as you give someone the opportunity to be a miserable prick, enough people will grab on to it to detroy even the most well thought out plan.

 

Another option would be to have a full world PvE sandbox game, then throw in a PvP Hunger Games style perma death.

Once every 6 months, 24 people are chosen at random and only 1 comes out. If your account is chosen, you have an option to opt out of the next one or not.

You have 6 months to build a character that might or might not get selected and your survival will be on the line if you are chosen.

 

Dunno if I'd play but it would be an interesting concept.

  crasset15

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 181

6/09/13 4:38:44 AM#228

I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. 100 lives, even in a pvp environment is a lot, if it is done properly. I've played DayZ for around 5 months. How many times have I died to other players? Around 30. That would mean a careful player can keep their account for a year and a half. Most MMOs these days bore me in 3 months. Year and a half would be a good run.

I don't understand people on this site. Everyone and their mother complains about wow clones. One would expect people to embrace a game that works completely differently, but no. People still complain.

How do they handle character progression? Is it based on gear and character skills, or more on the person's skill like FPSes?

Maybe they'll even let you inherit properties of your previous character with your new one, sort of like a family system with generations.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/09/13 6:06:52 AM#229
Originally posted by Mkilbride
Of course, and it's completely true.

Oh don't be daft, of course its not true! Next you will argue that the earth is flat, no doubt.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20667

6/09/13 11:23:21 AM#230
Originally posted by Quirhid
 
You have to take into account that a big part of UO's success came from the fact that it had little to no competition.

And i would not call UO "successful" when EQ has double its subs.

  exdeathbr

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 131

6/14/13 7:31:29 PM#231

Talking about internet loss something like this could fix the issue.

 

You need to die more than one time before your char dies.

After some amount of time your death counter decrease by 1.

So, if you have some internet problem and you die, there is nothing to worry, because you will get this life back.

If you are dying because of internet problems faster than your death counter you have a fucked up internet and the problem is not the permadeath feature.

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1903

6/14/13 7:35:31 PM#232
I would predict this game has a very very short life.Once the gankers find out there are only other gankers left in the game to kill. I cannot believe some game developers haven't learned this by now.
  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3333

Poacher killer.

6/14/13 8:12:36 PM#233
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Quirhid
 
You have to take into account that a big part of UO's success came from the fact that it had little to no competition.

And i would not call UO "successful" when EQ has double its subs.

So, it's only the title that's at the top at any given time that can be considered "successful"? You don't think that Origin Systems made some serious moula off of UO? Your statement is illogical.

Just so it's clear, UO's success was the reason that many MMORPGs were given the green light.

 

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  User Deleted
6/14/13 8:21:25 PM#234

I picture logging in to the game for the very first time... you are at the character creation screen.  Tons of awesome classes and races and appearances to choose from.  You painstakingly set your parameters and enter a name and click on continue.

 

*Poof* your character is deleted and a window pops up and says... "You have chosen unwisely, try again".

 

You try again... this time you alter a few parameters, mainly because you forgot the settings you used...

 

Again *poof* your character is deleted with the same message.

 

About 3 tries later you get the message... this game was never meant to be played.

  exdeathbr

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 131

6/17/13 9:51:35 AM#235
Originally posted by emperorwings
Just have a hardcore label. You die, you lose the label and can continue on your character without the hardcore label.

people would complain about that too

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1903

6/17/13 9:56:04 AM#236
PARADOX is running away as fast as it can from "SALEM"(which has perma-death).How many more perma-death games do some need to know this is a really bad idea.
  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

6/17/13 10:42:39 AM#237
Originally posted by Shadanwolf
PARADOX is running away as fast as it can from "SALEM"(which has perma-death).How many more perma-death games do some need to know this is a really bad idea.

It's not abundantly clear from what I've read so far exactly why Paradox is unloading Salem, but even if it's because it is failing, and if it's failure is due to it's permadeath implementation, I don't think that says a great deal about the very idea of permadeath in an MMO.  Salem has been carefully billed as a crafting MMO, yet has this seemingly arbitrary single-life PD mechanic... I can see where this strikes some players as incongruous and ill-conceived.  I don't see this as a verdict on PD altogether.  There were many failed attemps at building winged flying machines before the first successful airplane.  Did those early failures mean that wings were a bad feature, or that they hadn't been properly implemented?

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/17/13 10:45:29 AM#238
Originally posted by PsiKahn
Originally posted by Shadanwolf
PARADOX is running away as fast as it can from "SALEM"(which has perma-death).How many more perma-death games do some need to know this is a really bad idea.

It's not abundantly clear from what I've read so far exactly why Paradox is unloading Salem, but even if it's because it is failing, and if it's failure is due to it's permadeath implementation, I don't think that says a great deal about the very idea of permadeath in an MMO.  Salem has been carefully billed as a crafting MMO, yet has this seemingly arbitrary single-life PD mechanic... I can see where this strikes some players as incongruous and ill-conceived.  I don't see this as a verdict on PD altogether.  There were many failed attemps at building winged flying machines before the first successful airplane.  Did those early failures mean that wings were a bad feature, or that they hadn't been properly implemented?

There were  many attempts at cold fusion too...

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

6/17/13 11:03:00 AM#239
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by PsiKahn
Originally posted by Shadanwolf
PARADOX is running away as fast as it can from "SALEM"(which has perma-death).How many more perma-death games do some need to know this is a really bad idea.

It's not abundantly clear from what I've read so far exactly why Paradox is unloading Salem, but even if it's because it is failing, and if it's failure is due to it's permadeath implementation, I don't think that says a great deal about the very idea of permadeath in an MMO.  Salem has been carefully billed as a crafting MMO, yet has this seemingly arbitrary single-life PD mechanic... I can see where this strikes some players as incongruous and ill-conceived.  I don't see this as a verdict on PD altogether.  There were many failed attemps at building winged flying machines before the first successful airplane.  Did those early failures mean that wings were a bad feature, or that they hadn't been properly implemented?

There were  many attempts at cold fusion too...

Look, not every idea is a good one, and certainly when sufficient in-depth experimentation has been conducted without success, then by all means, call a spade a spade.  But I can scarcely see how anyone could argue that permadeath has been implemented by enough developers as to be considered a failure in concept.  And as I've said numerous times, some of the commonly cited examples of PD failling are poor examples because either a) they involved a very narrow implementation or b) there's insufficient evidence that PD was the cause of design failure.

I can't say factually that PD is a good idea, all I am saying is that's it's worth exploring.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

6/17/13 11:47:54 AM#240
Originally posted by PsiKahn

I can't say factually that PD is a good idea, all I am saying is that's it's worth exploring.

Dunno; how to you explain the rise of "save early/save often" in three-deaths video games, clear back in the 80s?

Why wasn't Donkey Kong played with a single death and no saves? Surely some video game producer somewhere must've tried it, and found it very unpopular--because adding a "save the game before you try anything really hard" became an industry-wide video game standard, somehow.

I submit that game producers did try, early on, rather a lot of compromises between /rawrhardcore and /joecasual, and ended up with the sort of compromise solutions that left the smallest number of players ragequitting.

A death-risk "price point", sort of.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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