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News & Features Discussion  » Neverwinter: 'Live' Date Announced

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55 posts found
  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2728

6/06/13 7:25:16 PM#41
Originally posted by marz.at.play
Originally posted by Rynet
They should open a new server, cheaters can stay on theirs and people that want an even playing field with no exploits can go to new server.

That's actually a great idea. Fresh economy and have paid transfers for anyone else wanting to transfer their toon instead of rolling a new one.

 Why would you ever suggest a paid transfer to the new server? That just allows the exploiters to expand out to the new server and ruin it.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Yuui

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 722

6/07/13 12:43:26 PM#42
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tsuru
Originally posted by Arskaaa
So much potential but pay to win:/

Its not pay to win. People who pay money do not get anything that gives an advantage over players who don't. I wish people would stop saying its pay to win.

Wrong!  Just look up Runes and how they work and see that without the cash shop you have a 1% chance using them.  

The game is a major pay-to-win game, very typical of PW games.  I knew PW would ruin anything cryptic made.

I think you might be wrong on this one. I don't see these runes being pay-to-win. I associate pay to win with having a distinct advantage over another person. Considering in PVE be it dungeons or raiding it would equate to perhaps dealing more damage or taking more damage I don't see how you 'Win' over your fellow PvE fellows? 

PvP is a bit different considering its a skill based system, but in honest once 60 you nuke everything very very quickly and it becomes more a 'team based' exercise rather than a solo PvP experience. There is a reason the PvP is designed as team based combat rather than a Free for all where the guy with the highest damage gets the most kills. 

In addition, a key costs around 40k AD. A very easy sum to obtain. I've personally earned  around 2 million AD since my time on there. I should also state that I bought Zen as well mainly for the character slot and for 2 bags. I used the AD I gained from buying and selling and playing the Zen market game. I have bought around 15 keys and traded for 10 others and I have got myself an epic mount, around 7 of those stones that prevent rune failure, 2x companions and a host of other goodies. 

So, I haven't been required to spend a penny on that stuff. Why are you going about it the hard way? You really don't have to.

ANY advantage constitutes as P2W, defend it all you want but any sort of advantage one receives over others will constitute as P2W.  Should the close calls be the winner who pays for "non-essential" upgrades?  I think not.  Not mention Hellloooo Health Stones and Rez Scrolls.  The cash shop is atrocious and the entire system reeks of company greed.

I am sorry, but no matter in what kind of strange parallel world you are living in, convenience items do NOT count for pay to win. And what you listed are exactly that - convenience items. 

# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5802

6/07/13 1:10:49 PM#43
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by kDeviL
Woah that's a pretty awesome idea for endgame  PvPvE -> PvP -> PvE all in one.  Might not appeal to everyone but it sounds pretty badass to me xD

I agree, I am excited for this, although I can see all the incoming whinging by PvE purists now.

And the PvP purists who will insist that they shouldn't have to pve for rewards.  In an open world pvp/pve game the mix can work.  I don't see it working well in this environment though.  It was generally an unloved feature during alpha testing, when it worked, and frustrated players.

It will be interesting to see how Gauntlgrym has changed since then.  It was hard to get into.  You had to be guilded and aligned to a proper faction in order to even start.  On top of that team matching was weak (and that's being kind).  I hope they took the feedback and made it better.  If they make it an option to dungeons for gearing then it might end up being popular. Still with the need to have 4 guilds queue at the proper time and with the limited time slots for availability I see a bumpy road ahead with this for a while.

Hopefully they will merge servers soon.

I don't like the cleric nerfs, not that they are bad or huge nerfs, but clerics really need a slight buff imo.

They have disabled the ability to need on items your class can't use which means that now everyone else in the party is screwed and the class specific items can be needed and sold only by one class.  They need to retool how loot is generated and distributed.  It's poor solution to restrict access to end game loot that can be sold for Astral Diamonds.

Curse you AquaScum!

  furbans

Elite Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 926

6/07/13 2:03:29 PM#44
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by kDeviL
Woah that's a pretty awesome idea for endgame  PvPvE -> PvP -> PvE all in one.  Might not appeal to everyone but it sounds pretty badass to me xD

I agree, I am excited for this, although I can see all the incoming whinging by PvE purists now.

I think it's a horride system to incorperate.  PvEers and PvPers are always at odds and usually on opposite end of the spectrum on so many things.  Forcing PvP gameplay onto PvEers is just retarded, keep them separated and do content pertaining for each and not all inclusive. 

I simply don't see this ending well.  Now class balance on the basis of PvP takes a dominate role in justifications for nerfs or buffs.... which the majority of those that post on the official forums don't want happening.

  furbans

Elite Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 926

6/07/13 2:06:04 PM#45
Originally posted by Yuui
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tsuru
Originally posted by Arskaaa
So much potential but pay to win:/

Its not pay to win. People who pay money do not get anything that gives an advantage over players who don't. I wish people would stop saying its pay to win.

Wrong!  Just look up Runes and how they work and see that without the cash shop you have a 1% chance using them.  

The game is a major pay-to-win game, very typical of PW games.  I knew PW would ruin anything cryptic made.

I think you might be wrong on this one. I don't see these runes being pay-to-win. I associate pay to win with having a distinct advantage over another person. Considering in PVE be it dungeons or raiding it would equate to perhaps dealing more damage or taking more damage I don't see how you 'Win' over your fellow PvE fellows? 

PvP is a bit different considering its a skill based system, but in honest once 60 you nuke everything very very quickly and it becomes more a 'team based' exercise rather than a solo PvP experience. There is a reason the PvP is designed as team based combat rather than a Free for all where the guy with the highest damage gets the most kills. 

In addition, a key costs around 40k AD. A very easy sum to obtain. I've personally earned  around 2 million AD since my time on there. I should also state that I bought Zen as well mainly for the character slot and for 2 bags. I used the AD I gained from buying and selling and playing the Zen market game. I have bought around 15 keys and traded for 10 others and I have got myself an epic mount, around 7 of those stones that prevent rune failure, 2x companions and a host of other goodies. 

So, I haven't been required to spend a penny on that stuff. Why are you going about it the hard way? You really don't have to.

ANY advantage constitutes as P2W, defend it all you want but any sort of advantage one receives over others will constitute as P2W.  Should the close calls be the winner who pays for "non-essential" upgrades?  I think not.  Not mention Hellloooo Health Stones and Rez Scrolls.  The cash shop is atrocious and the entire system reeks of company greed.

I am sorry, but no matter in what kind of strange parallel world you are living in, convenience items do NOT count for pay to win. And what you listed are exactly that - convenience items. 

 

Instant full health pots, your dead but can rez yourself with a scroll, items that provide top notch enchants on your gear..... OHHHH that's certainly CONVENIENCE items..... NOT.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6671

6/07/13 9:45:53 PM#46
Originally posted by Yuui
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tsuru
Originally posted by Arskaaa
So much potential but pay to win:/

Its not pay to win. People who pay money do not get anything that gives an advantage over players who don't. I wish people would stop saying its pay to win.

Wrong!  Just look up Runes and how they work and see that without the cash shop you have a 1% chance using them.  

The game is a major pay-to-win game, very typical of PW games.  I knew PW would ruin anything cryptic made.

I think you might be wrong on this one. I don't see these runes being pay-to-win. I associate pay to win with having a distinct advantage over another person. Considering in PVE be it dungeons or raiding it would equate to perhaps dealing more damage or taking more damage I don't see how you 'Win' over your fellow PvE fellows? 

PvP is a bit different considering its a skill based system, but in honest once 60 you nuke everything very very quickly and it becomes more a 'team based' exercise rather than a solo PvP experience. There is a reason the PvP is designed as team based combat rather than a Free for all where the guy with the highest damage gets the most kills. 

In addition, a key costs around 40k AD. A very easy sum to obtain. I've personally earned  around 2 million AD since my time on there. I should also state that I bought Zen as well mainly for the character slot and for 2 bags. I used the AD I gained from buying and selling and playing the Zen market game. I have bought around 15 keys and traded for 10 others and I have got myself an epic mount, around 7 of those stones that prevent rune failure, 2x companions and a host of other goodies. 

So, I haven't been required to spend a penny on that stuff. Why are you going about it the hard way? You really don't have to.

ANY advantage constitutes as P2W, defend it all you want but any sort of advantage one receives over others will constitute as P2W.  Should the close calls be the winner who pays for "non-essential" upgrades?  I think not.  Not mention Hellloooo Health Stones and Rez Scrolls.  The cash shop is atrocious and the entire system reeks of company greed.

I am sorry, but no matter in what kind of strange parallel world you are living in, convenience items do NOT count for pay to win. And what you listed are exactly that - convenience items. 

Enjoy wearing those blinders?  Either that or you do not understand how runes work, you can upgrade them to be extremely powerful power items, but you have to purchase expensive items from the item shop to do so as without them you have a 1% chance of the upgrade.  Now you might have problems doing the math, but a 1% chance means extremely rare.

So yes, the game is outright pay-to-win with a big time expense for the upgrades.  You are talking about an average $160 per character and of course that will only last until they raise the level limit and you have to start all over again.

 

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

6/09/13 9:42:19 PM#47
Well, I reached level 60 as GWF and thats enough for me. I like the combat system, but unless or until they do something about the dungeon system, and the kicking of GWF, simply because they are GWF, I see no point in continuing.   I ran a trickster rogue up to 16, but Its not really what I'm looking for. I have no interest in the other classes.  Its too bad, as I quite enojoyed the over all game.  As for all of the howling about "level playing field"  I really do not care about such things in a PvE game.
  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

6/09/13 9:46:11 PM#48
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Yuui
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tsuru
Originally posted by Arskaaa
So much potential but pay to win:/

Its not pay to win. People who pay money do not get anything that gives an advantage over players who don't. I wish people would stop saying its pay to win.

Wrong!  Just look up Runes and how they work and see that without the cash shop you have a 1% chance using them.  

The game is a major pay-to-win game, very typical of PW games.  I knew PW would ruin anything cryptic made.

I think you might be wrong on this one. I don't see these runes being pay-to-win. I associate pay to win with having a distinct advantage over another person. Considering in PVE be it dungeons or raiding it would equate to perhaps dealing more damage or taking more damage I don't see how you 'Win' over your fellow PvE fellows? 

PvP is a bit different considering its a skill based system, but in honest once 60 you nuke everything very very quickly and it becomes more a 'team based' exercise rather than a solo PvP experience. There is a reason the PvP is designed as team based combat rather than a Free for all where the guy with the highest damage gets the most kills. 

In addition, a key costs around 40k AD. A very easy sum to obtain. I've personally earned  around 2 million AD since my time on there. I should also state that I bought Zen as well mainly for the character slot and for 2 bags. I used the AD I gained from buying and selling and playing the Zen market game. I have bought around 15 keys and traded for 10 others and I have got myself an epic mount, around 7 of those stones that prevent rune failure, 2x companions and a host of other goodies. 

So, I haven't been required to spend a penny on that stuff. Why are you going about it the hard way? You really don't have to.

ANY advantage constitutes as P2W, defend it all you want but any sort of advantage one receives over others will constitute as P2W.  Should the close calls be the winner who pays for "non-essential" upgrades?  I think not.  Not mention Hellloooo Health Stones and Rez Scrolls.  The cash shop is atrocious and the entire system reeks of company greed.

I am sorry, but no matter in what kind of strange parallel world you are living in, convenience items do NOT count for pay to win. And what you listed are exactly that - convenience items. 

 

Instant full health pots, your dead but can rez yourself with a scroll, items that provide top notch enchants on your gear..... OHHHH that's certainly CONVENIENCE items..... NOT.

 You expect the same benefits as someone who is actually spending money on the game?  Good luck with that... These games cost a LOT to create. I have no problem with the Dev's making a profit on the time and talent they have invested in their game.  In fact, I'd rather they make a good profit, so that there is more chance of the game continuing and perhaps being expanded. 

  STD-Skin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/17/11
Posts: 12

6/09/13 11:39:52 PM#49
lol some of you guys must be new to Perfect World and Cryptic's games. They haven't learned anything from their past failures and it shows in Neverwinter, such trash.
  furbans

Elite Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 926

6/09/13 11:46:47 PM#50
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Yuui
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tsuru
Originally posted by Arskaaa
So much potential but pay to win:/

Its not pay to win. People who pay money do not get anything that gives an advantage over players who don't. I wish people would stop saying its pay to win.

Wrong!  Just look up Runes and how they work and see that without the cash shop you have a 1% chance using them.  

The game is a major pay-to-win game, very typical of PW games.  I knew PW would ruin anything cryptic made.

I think you might be wrong on this one. I don't see these runes being pay-to-win. I associate pay to win with having a distinct advantage over another person. Considering in PVE be it dungeons or raiding it would equate to perhaps dealing more damage or taking more damage I don't see how you 'Win' over your fellow PvE fellows? 

PvP is a bit different considering its a skill based system, but in honest once 60 you nuke everything very very quickly and it becomes more a 'team based' exercise rather than a solo PvP experience. There is a reason the PvP is designed as team based combat rather than a Free for all where the guy with the highest damage gets the most kills. 

In addition, a key costs around 40k AD. A very easy sum to obtain. I've personally earned  around 2 million AD since my time on there. I should also state that I bought Zen as well mainly for the character slot and for 2 bags. I used the AD I gained from buying and selling and playing the Zen market game. I have bought around 15 keys and traded for 10 others and I have got myself an epic mount, around 7 of those stones that prevent rune failure, 2x companions and a host of other goodies. 

So, I haven't been required to spend a penny on that stuff. Why are you going about it the hard way? You really don't have to.

ANY advantage constitutes as P2W, defend it all you want but any sort of advantage one receives over others will constitute as P2W.  Should the close calls be the winner who pays for "non-essential" upgrades?  I think not.  Not mention Hellloooo Health Stones and Rez Scrolls.  The cash shop is atrocious and the entire system reeks of company greed.

I am sorry, but no matter in what kind of strange parallel world you are living in, convenience items do NOT count for pay to win. And what you listed are exactly that - convenience items. 

 

Instant full health pots, your dead but can rez yourself with a scroll, items that provide top notch enchants on your gear..... OHHHH that's certainly CONVENIENCE items..... NOT.

 You expect the same benefits as someone who is actually spending money on the game?  Good luck with that... These games cost a LOT to create. I have no problem with the Dev's making a profit on the time and talent they have invested in their game.  In fact, I'd rather they make a good profit, so that there is more chance of the game continuing and perhaps being expanded. 

I expect em to be truthful and not take back their word, the said specifically that all items will be convinience and vanity items only. 

Cryptic needing to make money is not the issue, the issue at hand is the fanbois trumping the game as not P2W when the CS cannot be any more blatent that it most certainly is.

  User Deleted
6/09/13 11:56:36 PM#51
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Lol transfers would kinda defeat the purpose though ..

Maybe not, they could offer the transfer but state that they will wipe the AD, gold (not that gold matters), and any equipment / runes / items that are not bound to you.

That way non-cheaters can transfer over for a fresh start economy wise, without losing the characters and items they have worked for. Sure cheaters could transfer over as well, but aside from the base character, they won't have any other benefits.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

6/10/13 1:21:44 AM#52
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Yuui
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tsuru
Originally posted by Arskaaa
So much potential but pay to win:/

Its not pay to win. People who pay money do not get anything that gives an advantage over players who don't. I wish people would stop saying its pay to win.

Wrong!  Just look up Runes and how they work and see that without the cash shop you have a 1% chance using them.  

The game is a major pay-to-win game, very typical of PW games.  I knew PW would ruin anything cryptic made.

I think you might be wrong on this one. I don't see these runes being pay-to-win. I associate pay to win with having a distinct advantage over another person. Considering in PVE be it dungeons or raiding it would equate to perhaps dealing more damage or taking more damage I don't see how you 'Win' over your fellow PvE fellows? 

PvP is a bit different considering its a skill based system, but in honest once 60 you nuke everything very very quickly and it becomes more a 'team based' exercise rather than a solo PvP experience. There is a reason the PvP is designed as team based combat rather than a Free for all where the guy with the highest damage gets the most kills. 

In addition, a key costs around 40k AD. A very easy sum to obtain. I've personally earned  around 2 million AD since my time on there. I should also state that I bought Zen as well mainly for the character slot and for 2 bags. I used the AD I gained from buying and selling and playing the Zen market game. I have bought around 15 keys and traded for 10 others and I have got myself an epic mount, around 7 of those stones that prevent rune failure, 2x companions and a host of other goodies. 

So, I haven't been required to spend a penny on that stuff. Why are you going about it the hard way? You really don't have to.

ANY advantage constitutes as P2W, defend it all you want but any sort of advantage one receives over others will constitute as P2W.  Should the close calls be the winner who pays for "non-essential" upgrades?  I think not.  Not mention Hellloooo Health Stones and Rez Scrolls.  The cash shop is atrocious and the entire system reeks of company greed.

I am sorry, but no matter in what kind of strange parallel world you are living in, convenience items do NOT count for pay to win. And what you listed are exactly that - convenience items. 

 

Instant full health pots, your dead but can rez yourself with a scroll, items that provide top notch enchants on your gear..... OHHHH that's certainly CONVENIENCE items..... NOT.

 You expect the same benefits as someone who is actually spending money on the game?  Good luck with that... These games cost a LOT to create. I have no problem with the Dev's making a profit on the time and talent they have invested in their game.  In fact, I'd rather they make a good profit, so that there is more chance of the game continuing and perhaps being expanded. 

I expect em to be truthful and not take back their word, the said specifically that all items will be convinience and vanity items only. 

Cryptic needing to make money is not the issue, the issue at hand is the fanbois trumping the game as not P2W when the CS cannot be any more blatent that it most certainly is.

You've obviously not played any of the Asian games, in which you can purchase high level weapons, armor and combat mounts in their cash shops.  That IS P2W.  Neverwinters cash shop isn't even in the same league as that.  As for the rest, given what else I've stated about the game, I'd hardly be one of their fan kiddies.  But I do understand the reality of these games, and I'm more than willing to support the ones I enjoy.

  kingsatanas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/11
Posts: 31

6/10/13 5:36:46 AM#53

FAIL...... i tried it yesterday and i was  very surprise for a beta everyone are alrdy lv60 with his T2 alrdy...... 40$ for a mount when a sub mmo only charge 25$ im probably sure this game is p2w soon or pay to progress 10x faster then normal (sound the same thing for me) i very enjoyed the game but not gonna spend more then 60$ + 20$ per month on a video game o WAIT its PW ...... zen zen zen

 

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6671

6/10/13 8:45:34 AM#54
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Yuui
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by Tsuru
Originally posted by Arskaaa
So much potential but pay to win:/

Its not pay to win. People who pay money do not get anything that gives an advantage over players who don't. I wish people would stop saying its pay to win.

Wrong!  Just look up Runes and how they work and see that without the cash shop you have a 1% chance using them.  

The game is a major pay-to-win game, very typical of PW games.  I knew PW would ruin anything cryptic made.

I think you might be wrong on this one. I don't see these runes being pay-to-win. I associate pay to win with having a distinct advantage over another person. Considering in PVE be it dungeons or raiding it would equate to perhaps dealing more damage or taking more damage I don't see how you 'Win' over your fellow PvE fellows? 

PvP is a bit different considering its a skill based system, but in honest once 60 you nuke everything very very quickly and it becomes more a 'team based' exercise rather than a solo PvP experience. There is a reason the PvP is designed as team based combat rather than a Free for all where the guy with the highest damage gets the most kills. 

In addition, a key costs around 40k AD. A very easy sum to obtain. I've personally earned  around 2 million AD since my time on there. I should also state that I bought Zen as well mainly for the character slot and for 2 bags. I used the AD I gained from buying and selling and playing the Zen market game. I have bought around 15 keys and traded for 10 others and I have got myself an epic mount, around 7 of those stones that prevent rune failure, 2x companions and a host of other goodies. 

So, I haven't been required to spend a penny on that stuff. Why are you going about it the hard way? You really don't have to.

ANY advantage constitutes as P2W, defend it all you want but any sort of advantage one receives over others will constitute as P2W.  Should the close calls be the winner who pays for "non-essential" upgrades?  I think not.  Not mention Hellloooo Health Stones and Rez Scrolls.  The cash shop is atrocious and the entire system reeks of company greed.

I am sorry, but no matter in what kind of strange parallel world you are living in, convenience items do NOT count for pay to win. And what you listed are exactly that - convenience items. 

 

Instant full health pots, your dead but can rez yourself with a scroll, items that provide top notch enchants on your gear..... OHHHH that's certainly CONVENIENCE items..... NOT.

 You expect the same benefits as someone who is actually spending money on the game?  Good luck with that... These games cost a LOT to create. I have no problem with the Dev's making a profit on the time and talent they have invested in their game.  In fact, I'd rather they make a good profit, so that there is more chance of the game continuing and perhaps being expanded. 

I expect em to be truthful and not take back their word, the said specifically that all items will be convinience and vanity items only. 

Cryptic needing to make money is not the issue, the issue at hand is the fanbois trumping the game as not P2W when the CS cannot be any more blatent that it most certainly is.

You've obviously not played any of the Asian games, in which you can purchase high level weapons, armor and combat mounts in their cash shops.  That IS P2W.  Neverwinters cash shop isn't even in the same league as that.  As for the rest, given what else I've stated about the game, I'd hardly be one of their fan kiddies.  But I do understand the reality of these games, and I'm more than willing to support the ones I enjoy.

I beg to differ.  $160 to upgrade one character is like paying for a sub for a year.  That does not count for any of the other things in the cash shop you will probably need.   That fits in the pay-to-win category most certainly!

  MMO-Rogue

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/08
Posts: 46

6/11/13 3:51:24 PM#55

"Oh, it isn't P2W if you grind your arse off you can get AD to get the Zen to get what is needed."

Someone paid for that Zen and when all those suckers are gone and no uses bought Zen to trade for ADs anymore, guess what the only way to get any Zen item is by paying cash.

Spin it how you want, this may not be as blatant as eastern games in the P2W category but the veil covering the P2W nature of this game is very very thin.

And I agree there are likely too many not yet public exploits to start a new server. I will only come back when I have confidence they have eliminated significant economy altering exploits and open a new server.

And if you want to transfer your character to a new server either you want to take ill gotten gains from exploits over to a fresh economy or you are admitting that despite your hard work the exploits have destroyed the current servers.

Pretty much everyone who got fully equipped benefited from the exploits even if they did not use them directly. When you say, Oh I earned legitimately by playing the AD/Zen market, then you benefited from the exploits, the volatility that allowed you to play that market, was due to the exploits.  You would not have been able to do that in a clean economy. Even the noncheats realize that in a clean nonexploited environment they will not be able to equip the same and will have to P2W. Which is whey all the noncheats but beneficiaries of the exploits are objecting to clean economies.

 
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