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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Marvel Heroes: F2P Isn't a Charity

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169 posts found
  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

6/05/13 7:28:28 PM#81
Originally posted by BillMurphy

For some, it seems the notion of developers wanting to make any money on Free-to-Play games is a ludicrous idea. In this week's column, we discuss the fact that F2P games, while free, aren't a actually a charity.

The point in all this is that it takes money to actually create and support these games, especially for a smaller studio like Gazillion. None of this sort of complaining is unique to Marvel Heroes, of course, but it just continues to grind my gears that there are some players that don’t seem to understand that while these games are free – they are still a product and a business. Yes, they want to make money off of you. This isn’t a secret, nor is it insidious.

Read more of Michael Bitton's F2P Isn't a Charity.

This article proves that the straw man argument is still alive and well lol. 

 

Gamer's aren't asking for charity, what we are asking for and expecting is reasonable business models and pricing for what is offered. Marvel Heroes does not offer this. To try and counter that complaint by the numerous amount of people making it you try and come back with "Well this isn't a charity..." lol. 

 

As you pointed out, Marvel Heroes is a Diablo like game that generally sales for $20-$60 depending on the budget and quality. Torchlight, Torchlight 2, Diablo, Diablo 2, Diablo 3, etc. Yet it is asking for an asinine amount for the "Full Game". Sure you "Can" get many of the characters as drops in game but like other cash grab games it makes things with that "Push them to the store as much as possible" mentality. 

 

I'm sorry, but Bitton has apparently lost touch with gamers. 

Free to play in this case means "Cost more than a better quality game in the same genre" and no matter how you want to spin it that simply doesn't fly with gamers. You can say I'm wrong but... you're obviously here writting articles about it because more than just myself feels this way. 

 

I can buy Torchlight 1&2, Diablo 1,2,&3 and it would cost me less than it would to buy half of the characters in Marvel Heroes. When you can come back with a logical explanation to why this is true and why I shouldn't mind that this is true then you may have something worth saying, but this asinine straw man argument thrown up to defend a cash grab that offers less while charging a great deal more than similar games was a waste of space imho. 

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2566

6/05/13 7:29:35 PM#82
I've removed this post.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 461

6/05/13 7:34:27 PM#83

If there really are that many people upset about it, it is just another example why F2P games are just as hard to develop in their own way.

 

You have to put enough in to attract players, you have to have enough content for them to stay, you have to make them want to spend money without making them need to spend money to have fun.  If you make it too restrictive people quit before spending a dime, if you don't make it restrictive enough, people stay but never spend a dime.  You have to keep adding fluff to the store to keep people paying.  And all of this keeps them so busy, very little time to make new content(as in stuff you play not stuff you wear).

 

Where is an a sub game, they have to simply add enough new content to the game so that subscribers feel they are getting value, but so long as you make new and interesting content you are good to go.  Mainly the things that should interest the developers are the same things that interest the players, is the game fun, why do I logon, what new things have I enjoyed for my subscription.  Where as in a F2P game what the player wants is at odds with what the developer wants.  In a F2P game the player wants to have fun without spending money, and the developer only wants to find more ways to take the players money.

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2635

6/05/13 7:38:11 PM#84

I am all for these f2p games encouraging more people to spend money, instead of 1-10% of the people.  I am not in favor of the business model where the many leech off of the few.  This is why I favor selling downloadable content more.  Give the first 2 dungeons or so for free, then charge to open content for the whole account, none of the per character crap.

 

Then also do not sell anything that isn't cosmetic, this way, people can try the game, and if they do not like it, they didn't pay a dime (which is a big argument from people).

 

I am more of a p2p person, but if I am going to play a f2p game, if it is not cosmetic only, I usually just skip it....Lets just say, I don't play a lot of f2p...

 

I think of the insurance company that has the commercial where the people attach to that car like sucker fish, and calls them rate suckers, that's what I think of when I see the people that think they should be able to subsidize their gaming off of the 'whales' 100%.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2566

6/05/13 7:39:55 PM#85
Originally posted by jbombard

If there really are that many people upset about it, it is just another example why F2P games are just as hard to develop in their own way.

 

You have to put enough in to attract players, you have to have enough content for them to stay, you have to make them want to spend money without making them need to spend money to have fun.  If you make it too restrictive people quit before spending a dime, if you don't make it restrictive enough, people stay but never spend a dime.  You have to keep adding fluff to the store to keep people paying.  And all of this keeps them so busy, very little time to make new content(as in stuff you play not stuff you wear).

 

Where is an a sub game, they have to simply add enough new content to the game so that subscribers feel they are getting value, but so long as you make new and interesting content you are good to go.  Mainly the things that should interest the developers are the same things that interest the players, is the game fun, why do I logon, what new things have I enjoyed for my subscription.  Where as in a F2P game what the player wants is at odds with what the developer wants.  In a F2P game the player wants to have fun without spending money, and the developer only wants to find more ways to take the players money.

 Unfortunately there aren't really many companies that are producing great content to keep subscriptions worth while and companies taking control of the F2P model and making these prices completely outrageous which is terrible for the F2P model. It just goes to show that companies today don't care about producing significant portions of content to retain the their customers. They're just looking to make more money off of the little bit of content they have to offer at the moment. 

 While I support the Free-to-play model completely. Especially in the gaming market from these past few years. It's bad business to want so much money per item on the cash shop. Old cash shop games were dirt cheap only costing a few dollars per item and you usually go discounts for buying those items in bulk. However, in newer cash shop games these prices are anywhere from $10.00-40.00 in price. Which is an unbelievable price from a cash shop and gamers should feel ashamed if they purchase a product at such high rates.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Lanternkeeper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/13
Posts: 2

6/05/13 7:41:50 PM#86

What you have here is the subscription model, which is traditionally a socialist economic model (i.e. everyone pays the same thing, gets the same thing) encountering a capitalist a la carte economic model of F2P.

Folks are resistant to change.

The fact that many different things in Cash Shops exist there, really shouldn't be a shock. from Bags, to mounts, it makes sense. Especially if you factor in man-wage-hours it took for someone to make that item, code.

That being said Shokrizade's article on Systems of Control in MMO's is fascinating and sheds light on what we're willing to spend and how often in F2P MMOs that I highly recommend everyone on either side of this debate look at. (you can find it on Google, Shokrizade systems of control)

  sibs4455

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/22/08
Posts: 355

6/05/13 7:43:27 PM#87

The only time I see gamers complaining about f2p games is when the game itself is subpar or the cashshop is a total ripoff, or the worst thing in my opinion is when the cashshop has p2w items.

If the game is fun and none of the above reasons are there then I will hand over my cash to these types of games, I still subscribe to two mmo's too.

 

but

 

Instead of printing articles like this surely you should be asking why the game is f2p in the first place.

Any gamer that has been around for a few years can quickly tell if a game is crap, then you know for sure that the dev's have realized this too and that really the only option to make any money is the f2p route, for nobody would purchase the game in a b2p or a subscription format. Ofcourse there will always be a few good games that go f2p but you can count these on one hand.

 

You mention 'Steam', maybe you should do an article on the many small development companys (on Steam) that produce exceptional quality games for a few £'s and then compare them to some of the f2p total ripoff games.

  Ryowulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 669

6/05/13 7:45:42 PM#88

The problem is, it was made to be a money pit.  Its not a very good game.  Okay fun for a little while, but gets boring fast and the idea of leveling two or more heroes is depressing.  

In beta they wanted to make it so bought hero tokens gave a random hero. So pay 20 and good luck getting what you want.  What does that tell you about the mindset of these people?

  Tokken

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 887

"I'm your Huckleberry!"

6/05/13 7:45:59 PM#89

Totally agree with OP. Everyone thinks everything should be FREE. Tired of the whining and F2P games. I want to go back to subscription games so that we don't have to hear the whining!! Amen!

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  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

6/05/13 7:46:12 PM#90
Originally posted by sibs4455

The only time I see gamers complaining about f2p games is when the game itself is subpar or the cashshop is a total ripoff, or the worst thing in my opinion is when the cashshop has p2w items.

If the game is fun and none of the above reasons are there then I will hand over my cash to these types of games, I still subscribe to two mmo's too.

 

but

 

Instead of printing articles like this surely you should be asking why the game is f2p in the first place.

Any gamer that has been around for a few years can quickly tell if a game is crap, then you know for sure that the dev's have realized this too and that really the only option to make any money is the f2p route, for nobody would purchase the game in a b2p or a subscription format. Ofcourse there will always be a few good games that go f2p but you can count these on one hand.

 

You mention 'Steam', maybe you should do an article on the many small development companys (on Steam) that produce exceptional quality games for a few £'s and then compare them to some of the f2p total ripoff games.

I second this as this would actually be an article worth reading. 

  User Deleted
6/05/13 7:48:21 PM#91

Guess which game I'm going to leech as long as I can stomach and not pay for any of the content?

This one

 

I'd rather directly pay for a game than all this micro transaction crap. 

If a game is worth my time I have absolutely no problem with a box price/sub fee, but I generally refuse to give F2P games any love/money since I don't agree with the business model. F2Ps like this one pretty much require you to spend more money than a normal game would to have the same level of experience. Pretty much a load of crap

 

 

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2566

6/05/13 7:52:47 PM#92
 I cant wait for these developers to take the leap and start charging 50+ for items within the cash shop. If people are fine with the pricing lets keep increasing it more and more until we find the no point for gamers. I bet you many people would be willing to pay that much. Just because they can and for no other reason.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  User Deleted
6/05/13 8:02:38 PM#93

I find the title and general tone of this article to be a tad condescending to say the least. The fact that businesses are out to make money is axiomatic, as an adult consumer that doesn't need to be called to my attention.

 

Products and services don't exist in a vacuum, value is a relative term. As a Marvel Heroes Ultimate Pack owner, I feel like Marvel Heroes isn't offering people very good value for the price point. Let me demonstrate that by going over what  other multi-player ARPG games offer at their respective price points. 

 

Borderlands 2: $39.99 on Steam right now for the base game, $59.99 at release. 

What do you get? 4 classes, each with talent trees, that you can level up and get access to multiple skills. At the end of your first play through you should have literally dozens of different outfits, many different hero heads, so you can make your character look pretty much however you please. You'll get 2 vehicles as well, which both can be customized with different color schemes.  The campaign in Borderlands 2 took me at least twice as long to finish as the story in Marvel Heroes did, and BL2 offers more challenging game modes for a second and third play through. 

 

Torchlight 2: $19.99 on Steam right now, same as release.

What do you get? 4 classes, each with talent trees, that you can level up and get access to multiple skills. The modding community has added another dozen or so classes to the game, all with unique abilities. The way you look changes whenever you equip new gear, no need to pay $10. The game has so many gear sets and weapons it's ridiculous, with many, many unique models. Choose from one of over a dozen different pets at the character creation screen, no need to pay extra. These pets are actually functional, including combat skills and the ability to sell/buy from vendors so you don't have to go back to town. Runic just released brand new dungeons+ "netherworld portals" in each zone in a recent patch, for free. Modding community keeps adding new classes, pets, skins, dungeons, enemies, etc., for free. TL2 offers multiple difficulties with as many play throughs as you'd like. 

 

Diablo 3: $39.99 right now, $59.99 at release. 

What do you get? 4 classes that you can level up and get access to various highly customizable abilities. You can change your look by equipping different gear, then you can dye each piece of gear one of many colors. D3 offers multiple play throughs which become increasingly more difficult. After the first play through you will have 3 followers to choose from, each that you can deck out with some gear and assign skills to. D3 now has the Paragon leveling system and the Monster Power feature to keep people occupied after they hit max level. 

 

Now let's look at Marvel Heroes, shall we? On Steam the "Avenger's Pack" is $84.99. It comes with 4 heroes, 2 costumes a piece, and some gambling items. So, until you find another costume that one of your heroes can wear, (good luck with that), each will only have 2 outfits. The campaign is fairly short, maybe 20 hours or so tops, and then there are no options for additional play throughs, (even though you won't even be halfway to max level at that point). The "end game" then consists of either buying keys to missions from the cash shop, or hoping they drop from doing daily missions. And you will do this for 35 levels or so. Sorry, i just can't see how this is a good investment for people, especially when I look at what other titles are offering. There just isn't enough content to justify the price. 

 

If you want to compare MH to other MMO's, I still think you're not getting a good return on your money. There are no huge epic raid dungeons, no battlefields, no open world, no mounts, no multiple starting areas, no multiple quest lines, no huge cities, etc., etc.. Not even gear sets to collect. So when people want to talk about how much a yearly sub to a MMO costs, the typical MMO offers a whole lot more than what Marvel heroes currently offers.

 

I have to agree with those that think this title is basically a cash grab, using the popular Marvel IP as a means to justify charging a lot for a sub-par game. I'm personally really disappointed with Marvel Heroes, it seems like they just ran out of money, time and ideas and went live with what they had. In retrospect I'd buy this game in it's current form for maybe $30, everything included. There just isn't enough in it to keep me interested after a couple days. 

 

 

 

  mackdawg19

Tipster

Joined: 5/28/07
Posts: 868

"If men were created equal, then what happened to game developers?"

6/05/13 8:06:21 PM#94

The problem is this:

Gamers, mostly of the old school form, still tend to think that $60 plus $15 a month should be the most you should ever pay for a game. And in some ways you are correct..........if this was 2001. What they forget is INFLATION!!!

Inflation makes everything cost more including development and paying salaries because now since the price of goods has gone up, now you have to pay employees more to produce those goods. We are not in 2001 no more. The model of paying 60 a game plus a 15 sub fee is over with. Even for a small independent company, its no longer viable. That is what should have been highlighted in your story and pretty much the only thing needed to be said. F2P is the better option because it allows developers and customers to pay what they want while still maintaining a good product. Now i do agree, some companies over inflate the cost of there items, but in general, there is no set model for F2P. So if you think F2P is just a way to gouge a customer, then do us all a favor and jump in that time machine and go back to paying a cheaper price. But if you really think about it, it wasn't cheap then either. Cheers and the END!

Oh and please do not bring up games like WoW and Eve that have 15 subs and 60 box prices. Those games were made back then, so therefore it was viable for them. I can bet though they are not raking in the cash like they used to. Both those games 100% have saw a profit loss in some form. And i can also bet at those meetings, they have atleast brought up the F2P at some point. And may very well be working towards that area.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2566

6/05/13 8:08:24 PM#95
Originally posted by ZeroPointNRG

I find the title and general tone of this article to be a tad condescending to say the least. The fact that businesses are out to make money is axiomatic, as an adult consumer that doesn't need to be called to my attention.

 

Products and services don't exist in a vacuum,  value is a relative term. As a Marvel Heroes Ultimate Pack owner, I feel like Marvel Heroes isn't offering people very good value for the price point. Let me demonstrate that by going over what at other multi-player ARPG games offer at their respective price points. 

 

Borderlands 2: $39.99 on Steam right now for the base game, $59.99 at release. 

What do you get? 4 classes, each with talent trees, that you can level up and get access to multiple skills. At the end of your first play through you should have literally dozens of different outfits, many different hero heads, so you can make your character look pretty much however you please. You'll get 2 vehicles as well, which both can be customized with different color schemes.  The campaign in Borderlands 2 took me at least twice as long to finish as the story in Marvel Heroes did, and BL2 offers more challenging game modes for a second and third play through. 

 

Torchlight 2: $19.99 on Steam right now, same as release.

What do you get? 4 classes, each with talent trees, that you can level up and get access to multiple skills. The modding community has added another dozen or so classes to the game, all with unique abilities. The way you look changes whenever you equip new gear, no need to pay $10. The game has so many gear sets and weapons it's ridiculous, with many, many unique models. Choose from one of over a dozen different pets at the character creation screen, no need to pay extra. These pets are actually functional, including combat skills and the ability to sell/buy from vendors so you don't have to go back to town. Runic just released brand new dungeons+ "netherworld portals" in each zone in a recent patch, for free. Modding community keeps adding new classes, pets, skins, dungeons, enemies, etc., for free. TL2 offers multiple difficulties with as many play throughs as you'd like. 

 

Diablo 3: $39.99 right now, $59.99 at release. 

What do you get? 4 classes that you can level up and get access to various highly customizable abilities. You can change your look by equipping different gear, then you can dye each piece of gear one of many colors. D3  offers multiple play throughs which become increasingly more difficult. D3 now has the Paragon leveling system and the Monster Power feature to keep people occupied after they hit max level. 

 

Now let's look at Marvel Heroes, shall we? On Steam the "Avenger's Pack" is $84.99. It comes with 4 heroes, 2 costumes a piece, and some gambling items. So, until you find another costume that one of your heroes can wear, (good luck with that), each will only have 2 outfits. The campaign is fairly short, maybe 20 hours or so tops, and then there are no options for additional play throughs, (even though you won't even be halfway to max level at that point). The "end game" then consists of either buying keys to missions from the cash shop, or hoping they drop from doing daily missions. And you will do this for 35 levels or so. Sorry, i just can't see how this is a good investment for people, especially when I look at what other titles are offering. There just isn't enough content to justify the price. 

 

If you want to compare MH to other MMO's, I still think you're not getting a good return on your money. There are no huge epic raid dungeons, no battlefields, no open world, no mounts, no multiple starting areas, no multiple quest lines, no huge cities, etc., etc.. Not even gear sets to collect. So when people want to talk about how much a yearly sub to a MMO costs, the typical MMO offers a whole lot more than what Marvel heroes currently offers.

 

I have to agree with those that think this title is basically a cash grab, using the popular Marvel IP as a means to justify charging a lot for a sub-par game. I'm personally really disappointed with Marvel Heroes, it seems like they just ran out of money, time and ideas and went live with what they had. In retrospect I'd buy this game in it's current form for maybe $30, everything included. There just isn't enough in it to keep me interested after a couple days. 

 

 

 

Well said, I completely agree with your points. As I've said earlier, this game feels like Marvel Super Alliance which is a game you can easily pick up for $25.00 which is roughly around price you stated and you essentially get the whole game and all of the characters for significantly cheaper.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Jorl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/12
Posts: 262

6/05/13 8:10:01 PM#96

Don't mean to sound like a complete arse but... if you don't like the prices for these "free to play" game items  then I suggest sub to benefit. Otherwise stop complaining about it. The problem I see these days is people expect too much to be "free"... but people have to realize that it costs money to pay for bills, developers/moderators need income like any one else who works. Would you work 8 hours a day 5 - 7 days a week for free? Wake up people.

  Narook

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/06
Posts: 1

6/05/13 8:12:59 PM#97
Comment Remove By User
 
  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2566

6/05/13 8:13:49 PM#98
Originally posted by Jorl

Don't mean to sound like a complete arse but... if you don't like the prices for these "free to play" game items  then I suggest sub to benefit. Otherwise stop complaining about it. The problem I see these days is people expect too much to be "free"... but people have to realize that it costs money to pay for bills, developers/moderators need income like any one else who works. Would you work 8 hours a day 5 - 7 days a week for free? Wake up people.

 That's good in all and I'm fine with paying reasonable prices. However, when most console games offer these features and include servers to play the game online with no additional costs for the gamer other than a small DLC pack here and there and those DLC packs are reasonable in price. So, how can you say this when other companies have been clearly doing this for a while now?


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Avarix

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 284

6/05/13 8:18:04 PM#99
For me it's the principle. I have no problem supporting things I enjoy with money, especially a good game. However, when you're reaching for my wallet while pretending to hug me, I don't care for it. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I find this type of behavior slimy. That's basically what most of these "Free to play" games are doing. It boils down to "Don't spit on my ass and tell me it's raining!" Advertise your game differently and this would never be an issue.
  Kohle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 7

6/05/13 8:36:36 PM#100
Originally posted by ZeroPointNRG

I find the title and general tone of this article to be a tad condescending to say the least. The fact that businesses are out to make money is axiomatic, as an adult consumer that doesn't need to be called to my attention.

 

Products and services don't exist in a vacuum, value is a relative term. As a Marvel Heroes Ultimate Pack owner, I feel like Marvel Heroes isn't offering people very good value for the price point. Let me demonstrate that by going over what  other multi-player ARPG games offer at their respective price points. 

 

Borderlands 2: $39.99 on Steam right now for the base game, $59.99 at release. 

What do you get? 4 classes, each with talent trees, that you can level up and get access to multiple skills. At the end of your first play through you should have literally dozens of different outfits, many different hero heads, so you can make your character look pretty much however you please. You'll get 2 vehicles as well, which both can be customized with different color schemes.  The campaign in Borderlands 2 took me at least twice as long to finish as the story in Marvel Heroes did, and BL2 offers more challenging game modes for a second and third play through. 

 

Torchlight 2: $19.99 on Steam right now, same as release.

What do you get? 4 classes, each with talent trees, that you can level up and get access to multiple skills. The modding community has added another dozen or so classes to the game, all with unique abilities. The way you look changes whenever you equip new gear, no need to pay $10. The game has so many gear sets and weapons it's ridiculous, with many, many unique models. Choose from one of over a dozen different pets at the character creation screen, no need to pay extra. These pets are actually functional, including combat skills and the ability to sell/buy from vendors so you don't have to go back to town. Runic just released brand new dungeons+ "netherworld portals" in each zone in a recent patch, for free. Modding community keeps adding new classes, pets, skins, dungeons, enemies, etc., for free. TL2 offers multiple difficulties with as many play throughs as you'd like. 

 

Diablo 3: $39.99 right now, $59.99 at release. 

What do you get? 4 classes that you can level up and get access to various highly customizable abilities. You can change your look by equipping different gear, then you can dye each piece of gear one of many colors. D3  offers multiple play throughs which become increasingly more difficult. D3 now has the Paragon leveling system and the Monster Power feature to keep people occupied after they hit max level. 

 

Now let's look at Marvel Heroes, shall we? On Steam the "Avenger's Pack" is $84.99. It comes with 4 heroes, 2 costumes a piece, and some gambling items. So, until you find another costume that one of your heroes can wear, (good luck with that), each will only have 2 outfits. The campaign is fairly short, maybe 20 hours or so tops, and then there are no options for additional play throughs, (even though you won't even be halfway to max level at that point). The "end game" then consists of either buying keys to missions from the cash shop, or hoping they drop from doing daily missions. And you will do this for 35 levels or so. Sorry, i just can't see how this is a good investment for people, especially when I look at what other titles are offering. There just isn't enough content to justify the price. 

 

If you want to compare MH to other MMO's, I still think you're not getting a good return on your money. There are no huge epic raid dungeons, no battlefields, no open world, no mounts, no multiple starting areas, no multiple quest lines, no huge cities, etc., etc.. Not even gear sets to collect. So when people want to talk about how much a yearly sub to a MMO costs, the typical MMO offers a whole lot more than what Marvel heroes currently offers.

 

I have to agree with those that think this title is basically a cash grab, using the popular Marvel IP as a means to justify charging a lot for a sub-par game. I'm personally really disappointed with Marvel Heroes, it seems like they just ran out of money, time and ideas and went live with what they had. In retrospect I'd buy this game in it's current form for maybe $30, everything included. There just isn't enough in it to keep me interested after a couple days. 

 

 

 

I think you pretty much win this thread. Hell, you might even win the internet. A well written and rational post... 

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