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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Marvel Heroes: F2P Isn't a Charity

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169 posts found
  Astropuyo

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/07
Posts: 1813

I lose more stars than a hollywood speedball convention.

6/05/13 3:02:39 PM#21
Originally posted by Attend4455

>Free-to-Play isn’t a charity

well don't call it free-to-play if you want it to be pay-to-play

>appears to be a subset of MMO gamers who look at Free-to-Play games with a sense of entitlement

maybe they are gamers that think free-to-play means free-to-play

>You aren’t blocked from anything and there aren’t cheeky little restrictions on game features or game design that make you reliant on the cash shop.

maybe you should look at the majority of games that do these things instead of the one that doesn't

> The point in all this is that it takes money to actually create and support these games,
especially for a smaller studio like Gazillion

it's a valid point, stop calling them free-to-play perhaps?

> I personally know people who will drop $30 in a single day on two Steam games out of sheer boredom

more free-to-play games :)

Personally, I don't have any problem with this game or any other F2P game, what I object to is
calling games free to play when they are not. I play EVE and have played other games that are
either P2P or B2P and I know exactly what I'm getting for my money.

 

 

This guy is 100% too.

Why are you using the term "Free to play" ?

Free means free. It's time we labeled these Micro Transaction MMORPG's as free to play is so beyond BS it's almost to the point where one can say "You clearly do not know the definition of the word free".

Just saying if this site wants integrity like it used to have it's time to stop using word that pretty much was COINED here for RO (Back in it's beta days) F2P. Just saying it's time you guys stopped using Free to play. Not time for us customers to stop using that word, we're not the ones making our living on informing gamers.

 

It's your damned jobs, there is a reason you get paid. You make advertising dollars, and for every dumb ass article you gain 1 impression and lose two future impressions, so whatever it's not my job.

 

Free is Free. Free means free. There is no other term for free other than "Given freely" It never says fully or partially however that's your jobs to label them now. "Partially free to play" for instance.

astropuyo Xfire Miniprofile
  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6501

"I fight so you don't have to."

6/05/13 3:05:15 PM#22
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by kevjards
would have thought the point was that these games like marvel are not free therefore its a case of false advertising.free means it costs nothing..in all so called f2p it ends up costing you something therefore it aint free.

that argument is no more valid than water isn't free because you can buy it in bottles.

Choosing to spend money on a game doesn't mean it wasn't free to play it.

Strawman argument. It is more like advertising bottled water as free but then charging for drinking more than a mouthful.

And your second statement makes no sense. If you spend money on something then it is by definition not free and you always choose to, or not, spend money on a game regardless of it is F2P or not. F2P is basically like free preview of the game but you have to pay up to get the full game.

  Grakulen

Staff Writer

Joined: 3/07/12
Posts: 420

6/05/13 3:06:29 PM#23
Lets just call them Microtransaction based or u2P.

Also Visavius. I wrote an article talking about how I disliked Neverwinter's gamble to win economics. It was on the site two weeks ago titled the Duplication Debacle.

  Astropuyo

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/07
Posts: 1813

I lose more stars than a hollywood speedball convention.

6/05/13 3:07:52 PM#24
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by kevjards
would have thought the point was that these games like marvel are not free therefore its a case of false advertising.free means it costs nothing..in all so called f2p it ends up costing you something therefore it aint free.

that argument is no more valid than water isn't free because you can buy it in bottles.

Choosing to spend money on a game doesn't mean it wasn't free to play it.

See I hate the "F2p" model I just sub to my games.

 

If the game has a ton of loot items (Small dragon teeth,etc) instead of "Gold" rewards on mobs. You got yourself what we call an inventory gimper (It will force you to upgrade your inventory at some time),, you have extremely high exp rates lower in levels and then it gets to the point of a job. Until you buy...boosts! Now the game is the same pace as it started.

 

You are literally acting like the buffets at a Casino won't draw in gambling. If the mechanics are so beyond playable without boosts and inventory boosters, chances are....you have been Buffet snagged and now you are playing the slots on a gamble addiction roll, but this is totally COOL practices in business right?

 

Wrong. Only in places like Vegas and Atlantic city do they get away with that stuff. It's the same thing damned thing.

astropuyo Xfire Miniprofile
  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5410

6/05/13 3:10:08 PM#25
Originally posted by Purutzil

The issue is more so what is offered as far as an advantage and the amount MORE you spend then say a traditional MMO.

For some, this can certainly be true, but it's not with Marvel Heroes. Outside of maybe a couple of inventory tabs, there's nothing of value to buy in Marvel Heroes other than heroes and skins, and those also drop in the game. This is the studio's primary source of revenue, since they've made literally just about everything else free. In a non-F2P MMO, you would have spent $50-60 up front, and if you played for as little as three months, another 30$ in subscription fees (excluding the free first month). This puts you $80-90 in the hole already and the value only gets worse with each additional month you play. If you like the game, I'm not sure how anyone would prefer the former option to the latter, even given Gazillion's pricing structure. It's a clear cut savings.

For that much money, or even just the standard $60 you'd normally pay for the game and free month, you could have easily picked up a bundle for Marvel Heroes giving you a stable of four additional heroes (you're given three entirely free), skins and bank tabs for each of those heroes, and literally anywhere from $30 to $55 in in-game currency to spend on whatever you want. The value with these packs was absolutely nuts. And if you didn't buy a pack? You can still pick up a decent amount of characters within that $60 budget right now. $60 would get you: three of the most expensive ($20), five of the second highest priced ($12), and it gets even better for the cheaper characters ($6-9). How is this outrageous? It's not. On top of that, consider Gazillion will be offering sales and, this bears repeating, you can also find all of this stuff in game without dropping a dime.

All of the above is precisely why I used Marvel Heroes as an example of how ridiculous this trend of outrage has become. By all means, if a developer takes an Allods Online approach with you, give 'em hell for it. But it seems that there are some unreasonable expectations for Free-to-Play games from, perhaps a vocal minority, I don't know.  I just know that I see it quite a bit of this and it's not exclusive to Marvel Heroes by a long shot. In any case, it's a subject worth discussing, and I wanted to use my column this week to raise the issue.

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1147

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

6/05/13 3:10:11 PM#26

 

This is one of the first games whereby I went "I want this as a single player game" while playing it, and saying it again after looking at the hero prices.

 

I'd play it like crazy on lan with my buddies.  But instead I have to pay some $20 for the most popular heroes, with there being dozens that you can buy.  Then on top of that $12 for the best looking costume for said characters.

 

It went from me wanting to support them with a $59.99 package after trying and liking the full release to me giving my monitor a middle finger when I see they doubled the prices of packages.

 

F2P may not be a charity, but treating your customers and potential future fans like they're just dollar signs isn't indicative of a company I want to support at all.  It may be the hard truth of business, but good businesses at least make you feel like your worth something to them.

 

I didn't expect the $200 package to be there for release, but I assumed the one that was priced the same as a video game ($59.99) would be, and not doubled in price for the crowd who waits for a release to see if they will purchase a game.

 

I didn't even care what package it was, I had genuine fun with the single character I picked at start and wanted to support them.  Now they'll not see a dime from me, and I'm urging my colleagues to do the same.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6501

"I fight so you don't have to."

6/05/13 3:10:20 PM#27
Originally posted by Grakulen
Lets just call them Microtransaction based or u2P.

Also Visavius. I wrote an article talking about how I disliked Neverwinter's gamble to win economics. It was on the site two weeks ago titled the Duplication Debacle.

 

Yes this is a good idea. The F2P therm needs to die and something more descriptive should be used and Microtransaction based is far more descriptive that free to play.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7121

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/05/13 3:10:54 PM#28
Originally posted by Grakulen
Lets just call them Microtransaction based or u2P.

Also Visavius. I wrote an article talking about how I disliked Neverwinter's gamble to win economics. It was on the site two weeks ago titled the Duplication Debacle.

 

 

Can you link me to this please? Forum search is throwing nothing up.

  Astropuyo

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/07
Posts: 1813

I lose more stars than a hollywood speedball convention.

6/05/13 3:11:03 PM#29
Originally posted by Grakulen
Lets just call them Microtransaction based or u2P.

Also Visavius. I wrote an article talking about how I disliked Neverwinter's gamble to win economics. It was on the site two weeks ago titled the Duplication Debacle.

 

MT2P, exactly.

It fits and it's a totally fair representation of the game. That's the problem with mmorpg's (Sites and games) the mislabeled marketing attempts by Asian companies like the defunct Gravity and the Good ole Nexon have really gotten you western marketers by the short hair.

I mean it's taken five suggestions after 7 years for us to get down to the knitty gridy?

And that's the "F2p" term no longer works and is misrepresenting the business model.

That's just not cool for business and consumers alike. You are literally lying to their faces when you say "Free" in a game.

astropuyo Xfire Miniprofile
  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4385

6/05/13 3:12:49 PM#30
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by kevjards
would have thought the point was that these games like marvel are not free therefore its a case of false advertising.free means it costs nothing..in all so called f2p it ends up costing you something therefore it aint free.

that argument is no more valid than water isn't free because you can buy it in bottles.

Choosing to spend money on a game doesn't mean it wasn't free to play it.

Strawman argument. It is more like advertising bottled water as free but then charging for drinking more than a mouthful.

And your second statement makes no sense. If you spend money on something then it is by definition not free and you always choose to, or not, spend money on a game regardless of it is F2P or not. F2P is basically like free preview of the game but you have to pay up to get the full game.

It's not a strawman argument. You're just using false information to try and prove a point. You never have to spend money in this game at any point. You can play all content and given enough time all heroes for free. So it's not false advertising to say the game is free to play. No they're got giving you the bottle and charging you if you take more than a mouth full.  That's also the point of this thread...people like you who seem to think that if they charge for anything in a f2p game they lie.

If you can't wait and want things right away you can buy them. That choices doesn't make the free to play title a lie.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  jazneo

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/12
Posts: 11

6/05/13 3:15:14 PM#31

then they won't get my money.   only the stupid will pay for $20  for one character. it p2w game 

  Wicoa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1613

6/05/13 3:18:19 PM#32

The price of characters is too much in my opinion especially since you need to buy banking space and costumes? To be frank I was put off before launch, the price of the founders packs were rediculous, go ahead and tell me again that the store value was worth it. All I saw was that the packs cost 200$ and thats half the price of an xbox one.

 

Too much, even for the marvel name.

  kevjards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/27/10
Posts: 1443

6/05/13 3:18:26 PM#33
Originally posted by Grakulen
Lets just call them Microtransaction based or u2P.

Also Visavius. I wrote an article talking about how I disliked Neverwinter's gamble to win economics. It was on the site two weeks ago titled the Duplication Debacle.

 

I prefer the term microtransaction game than f2p..it doesn't cause any confusion and people know exactly what they are getting(for their money)

  Kohle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 7

6/05/13 3:18:38 PM#34
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Purutzil

The issue is more so what is offered as far as an advantage and the amount MORE you spend then say a traditional MMO.

For some, this can certainly be true, but it's not with Marvel Heroes. Outside of maybe a couple of inventory tabs, there's nothing of value to buy in Marvel Heroes other than heroes and skins, and those also drop in the game. This is the studio's primary source of revenue, since they've made literally just about everything else free. In a non-F2P MMO, you would have spent $50-60 up front, and if you played for as little as three months, another 30$ in subscription fees (excluding the free first month). This puts you $80-90 in the hole already and the value only gets worse with each additional month you play. If you like the game, I'm not sure how anyone would prefer the former option to the latter, even given Gazillion's pricing structure. It's a clear cut savings.

For that much money, or even just the standard $60 you'd normally pay for the game and free month, you could have easily picked up a bundle for Marvel Heroes giving you a stable of four additional heroes (you're given three entirely free), skins and bank tabs for each of those heroes, and literally anywhere from $30 to $55 in in-game currency to spend on whatever you want. The value with these packs was absolutely nuts. And if you didn't buy a pack? You can still pick up a decent amount of characters within that $60 budget right now. $60 would get you: three of the most expensive ($20), five of the second highest priced ($12), and it gets even better for the cheaper characters ($6-9). How is this outrageous? It's not. On top of that, consider Gazillion will be offering sales and, this bears repeating, you can also find all of this stuff in game without dropping a dime.

All of the above is precisely why I used Marvel Heroes as an example of how ridiculous this trend of outrage has become. By all means, if a developer takes an Allods Online approach with you, give 'em hell for it. But it seems that there are some unreasonable expectations for Free-to-Play games from, perhaps a vocal minority, I don't know.  I just know that I see it quite a bit of this and it's not exclusive to Marvel Heroes by a long shot. In any case, it's a subject worth discussing, and I wanted to use my column this week to raise the issue.

 

Are you honestly comparing the cost and worth of a full MMO to a game like this? The two are so completely different and if you can't see how much more a game like WoW or even TOR offers compared to MH, then I can't help ya.

  romello

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/13
Posts: 34

hallo ~_~

6/05/13 3:23:40 PM#35

more like free to fail / pay to have any fun at all

u paid for stuff? good for u! now play with other payers! want to lure other ppl to pay too coz u did? too bad!

hallo ~_~

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

6/05/13 3:23:43 PM#36
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Grakulen
Lets just call them Microtransaction based or u2P.

Also Visavius. I wrote an article talking about how I disliked Neverwinter's gamble to win economics. It was on the site two weeks ago titled the Duplication Debacle.

 

Yes this is a good idea. The F2P therm needs to die and something more descriptive should be used and Microtransaction based is far more descriptive that free to play.

I agree F2P confuses people, the sub-locked proponents most of all.  Anyone who isn't an MMO noob knows what F2P has meant historically... no subscription required to play as it is free to access the servers.  You know when most games were P2P, the term F2P never confused anyone.

Personally I like to define games as "sub-locked" and "sub-free".  Sub-free games don't require a subscription to access the servers.  They may have box fees, cash shops, rmt, or whatever, but no sub required.  Sub-locked games like WoW, EVE, and other smaller niche games require a subscription to access the servers.

I don't like using the term Micro-transaction based because both WoW and EVE have microtransactions or RMT of some sort and they're sub-locked.  Hell, most games now regardless of subscription have some sort of RMT/MT.  That's more misleading than F2P.  Gamers just like to play word lawyer so now the term F2P means something different so gamers can whine and complain about false advertising.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

6/05/13 3:26:24 PM#37
Originally posted by kevjards
Originally posted by Grakulen
Lets just call them Microtransaction based or u2P.

Also Visavius. I wrote an article talking about how I disliked Neverwinter's gamble to win economics. It was on the site two weeks ago titled the Duplication Debacle.

 

I prefer the term microtransaction game than f2p..it doesn't cause any confusion and people know exactly what they are getting(for their money)

Do you mean micro-transaction games like WoW and EVE or micro-transaction games like LotRO and EQ2?

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4385

6/05/13 3:31:53 PM#38
Originally posted by Torvaldr

I agree F2P confuses people, the sub-locked proponents most of all.  Anyone who isn't an MMO noob knows what F2P has meant historically... no subscription required to play as it is free to access the servers.  You know when most games were P2P, the term F2P never confused anyone.

Personally I like to define games as "sub-locked" and "sub-free".  Sub-free games don't require a subscription to access the servers.  They may have box fees, cash shops, rmt, or whatever, but no sub required.  Sub-locked games like WoW, EVE, and other smaller niche games require a subscription to access the servers.

I don't like using the term Micro-transaction based because both WoW and EVE have microtransactions or RMT of some sort and they're sub-locked.  Hell, most games now regardless of subscription have some sort of RMT/MT.  That's more misleading than F2P.  Gamers just like to play word lawyer so now the term F2P means something different so gamers can whine and complain about false advertising.

No matter what you call it there is always ppl who take the exact literal meaning with no interpritation...or thought allowed. I'm sure the first argument you'll see is I just spent $50 on this game. I wouldn't call that a microtrasnaction!!!! Things should never cost more than xxx$ in a microtransaction game!

People know what free to play means. we should just feel sorry for the people who make the argument if you can buy anything it's not free. Their life is going to be way harder than it should be already.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  sketocafe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 539

6/05/13 3:34:53 PM#39

You're right, F2P isn't a charity. In the case of marvel heroes it's a monetization strategy designed to pull far more money out of players willing to pay than either a box purchase or subscription would at the going rates. $20 for one hero isn't a microtransaction. That's a month's subscription to EVE or WoW with five bucks left over for a delicious coffee at Starbucks. 

You're upset with players complaining about Gazillion's methods. Why shouldn't we be upset? How is it acceptable that I can spend more than 15 dollars in a month and not have access to the whole game, when that's been the industry standard for a decade? How is it acceptable that I could buy three characters for the same price that I can get everything in Guild Wars 2? 

Why do they deserve a pass for parceling their game up into chunks with a price tag far beyond what gamers expect to pay for a game, just because the first chunk you get is free? You say you get all of Marvel Heroes free? That isn't the truth. The addictive arpg progression in this game has been shifted from that hot gear drop to the next skill for my hero. Skill up seven of them and then you're done, unless of course you want to purchase another one. I can get all of Diablo 3 for 60 bones and never run into  a wall where I simply can't progress anymore without adding money. I can get all of Path of Exile for absolutely nothing and, again, never reach a point where I have to pay them to have more fun. 

We're complaining because, compared to other options we have, this game wants to sell us less for more money. You wouldn't hear a peep if we could pay the standard box price and play to our heart's content like in Diablo. You would not hear one word if Grinding Gear Games made this and you were just buying extra storage which is nice but not required or cosmetic effects which look cool. Other games do exist, and Marvel Heroes suffers in comparison them to them. That isn't our fault.

  Hrimnir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1074

6/05/13 3:35:38 PM#40

What i find hilarious is that you truly seem to be surprised or bewildered by the fact that our entitlement society/generation feels like they deserve things for free.  Some of us have been saying for years that this is the driving factor behind F2P.  It has nothing to do with it being a "better" model.  Subscription is CLEARLY a better model to anyone with any level of logic.  But, F2P is popular because 1.Entitlement generations gets to feel like they're getting something for "free".  2. People are too stupid to realize they actually spend more money on F2P games than on sub games.

They've done plenty of studies that have shown the average player spends $27/mo on f2p games.  Yet, those same people act like they're being essentially raped by the evil corporate bastards by even *suggesting* they pay $15/mo for a game.

You see, us adults and people who aren't frankly insane children, realize that $15/mo is an excellent value and really have no qualms paying that.

Anyways, /rantoff

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

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