Trending Games | ArcheAge | Guild Wars 2 | WildStar | World of Warcraft

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,785,460 Users Online:0
Games:723  Posts:6,192,838
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Price of Immersion

11 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
220 posts found
  MMORPGRIP

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/13
Posts: 90

6/04/13 9:42:00 PM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I can do without the hassle. Games are for entertainment. Either invent a lore reason to get rid of the hassle, or just get rid of it.

So what if we lose some immersion, fun is more important.

Look at long travel ... in a fantasy world, it is trivial to invent some mumbo-jumbo to have teleportation. That beats running the same route again and again (the first time may be fun, the 10th time is a chore).

And many people don't even care about that dressing up part .. just have a LFD teleport to the dungeon ... do you see any player not using it because it breaks immersion?

This is why their are different types of games and entertainment within them. If it isn't something you find fun, then don't play it. But don't campaign to take it away from those who enjoy such features. Yep...those features other find fun in believe it or not.

 

You always seem to be telling everyone items and features don't belong because you don't find them fun. It's not all about you.

 

 

  MMORPGRIP

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/13
Posts: 90

6/04/13 9:47:48 PM#22
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

The point I am driving is that every "inconvenience" dev's blindly toss aside might also involve discarding valuable immersion factors, and that things warrant a closer look and evaluation.

Of course it's subjective.  Still, it requires arriving at a decision.


"Blindly toss aside"?

You mean like forced grouping in EQ1 then? The single most-complained-about feature on EQ1s forums for several years? Someone clearly, consciously decided to make a change.

People can't examine exactly the same situation that you do, every bit as carefully, and still not agree with your conclusions?

IDK why everyone keeps using this "forced grouping" excuse from EQ. You could absolutely solo from lvl 1 to 65 (At the time) in EQ without grouping. I did it on one character (Ranger). It just took much longer than soloing in today's MMORPG's...but it was doable.

 

You didn't HAVE to group. Sure...some content was tough and grouping was necessary for the really good rewards. But personally...that's how it should be if you want the best stuff. Not like today's games..

 

"Congratulations! You walked 30 feet to retrieve me my slippers. Here is the sword of Pwnage!" With ridicuous stats and allows you to solo 1 shot everything and is huge and glowing like some roided out rave glow stick from hell.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2945

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/04/13 10:05:17 PM#23


Originally posted by Icewhite
Afraid there really isn't a simple answer to this one.

It's not a binary proposition, you can have too much (or too little) of a good thing.

Every player's going to have a different level of tolerance for 'fiddly' systems, where plus roleplay is exchanged for minus time.

Which is why, presumably, so many Lead Devs arrive at different answers to the same basic problems.

Or why many people, while willing to agree that immersion is indeed a generally good thing, disagree on specifics.

Ever read a roleplaying forum? As many ideas as there are stars.



Have to agree here, Ice.

Take food for example. I like it in game, but not a message popping up every 4-6 in game hours saying I need to eat where I have to go into inventory and click on food and drink. But carrying the food I cooked in my backpack and having the game "use" it at set intervals (EQ style) is OK for me.

Ammo is another one. Carrying 2000 arrows each of 4 different types is laughable, for me. Having an actual quiver that carries maybe 20 arrows is more realistic. Then carrying extras in one's backpack to refill the quiver makes sense. Cleaning up after each fight becomes important. Sure, it can be a pain to some players. For me, it helps me feel like I am archer. Unlimited ammo just makes no sense to me.

Others will definitely vary on their own personal "breaking points."

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2945

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/04/13 10:11:05 PM#24


Originally posted by Velocinox
Just like in the hunger thread, you keep coming up with systems you are forced to engage in. That's not a good idea when the payoff is ambiguous as some people's idea of immersion.

Now, if you're going to include immersion systems that are entirely opt-in, with no detriment to not using them, then that is fine. People looking to find a better life in the internet can use every system you throw at them, while the ones that are only in-game for a while before they go back to enjoying their life can ignore them and enjoy the game.



That is fine. But does every game have to follow suit?

I suppose it does if it wants big numbers instead of differing gameplay options...

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

6/04/13 10:16:50 PM#25
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

The point I am driving is that every "inconvenience" dev's blindly toss aside might also involve discarding valuable immersion factors, and that things warrant a closer look and evaluation.

Of course it's subjective.  Still, it requires arriving at a decision.


"Blindly toss aside"?

You mean like forced grouping in EQ1 then? The single most-complained-about feature on EQ1s forums for several years? Someone clearly, consciously decided to make a change.

People can't examine exactly the same situation that you do, every bit as carefully, and still not agree with your conclusions?

I mean like feeding your pet and pet happiness in WOW, for examples.  Or arrows and bullets for hunters.  Reagents for spells and poisons.  That stuff was not that big a hassle to deal with, was kind of fun in fact, and I felt more immersed and it gave me a non-combat focus prepping out before leaving Ironforge.

Oh, when they expanded underwater breathing to where it was not an issue, was a HUGE hit for me in immersion.  I remember trying to gauge my breath when diving to underwater tunnels and such, and I thought it was fun to try to do it properly.

Dumbing down a game...well...just sort of dumbs it down.

The single most idiotic minor change with a huge impact on immersion was WoW removing melee weapons from hunters and ranged weapons from warriors (and other classes).  It wasnt even done because of a hassle to the players, it was done because of easier balancing.

Another idiotic change was remove of fall damage in Rift.  Fall damage was certainly high and could have used a nerf, but instead of that they just removed it.  Being able to take a shortcut by leaping off the tallest mountain is just silly.

 

But really the biggest way to create immersion is to have a richly crafted setting.  Norrath is the number one reason behind EQ's immersion.  the world they created was simply stunning, with all its history and varied inhabitants.  the treetops of Kelethin, the caves of Kaladim, the swamplands of the trolls, the cold north homelands of the barbarians...Even if these were cliche, they added tremendously t it.  You were able to identify with your race because of your beginings and your home city.

Contrast that with Rift.  Does Rift give you any real sense of what its like to be a Bahmi when you play as one?  Look at their wiki entry for the race:  http://rift.wikia.com/wiki/Bahmi.  Does that really come out in the game?  not to mention its kind of all over the place...they are spiritual super warriors who are great craftsmen that are reclusive, standoffish, but often assume leadership...way too cluttered of a background there (not sure if its trion's own writing there not though)  But ultimately you have an unmemorable race even if they do look kinda cool.

WoW with its cartoonish graphics, constant silliness and pop culture references still manages to create an immersive world.  And its because of its places and people and all its stories. 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2945

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/04/13 10:18:35 PM#26


Originally posted by MMORPGRIP

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by ReallyNow10
The point I am driving is that every "inconvenience" dev's blindly toss aside might also involve discarding valuable immersion factors, and that things warrant a closer look and evaluation.

Of course it's subjective.  Still, it requires arriving at a decision.



"Blindly toss aside"?

You mean like forced grouping in EQ1 then? The single most-complained-about feature on EQ1s forums for several years? Someone clearly, consciously decided to make a change.

People can't examine exactly the same situation that you do, every bit as carefully, and still not agree with your conclusions?



IDK why everyone keeps using this "forced grouping" excuse from EQ. You could absolutely solo from lvl 1 to 65 (At the time) in EQ without grouping. I did it on one character (Ranger). It just took much longer than soloing in today's MMORPG's...but it was doable.

You didn't HAVE to group. Sure...some content was tough and grouping was necessary for the really good rewards. But personally...that's how it should be if you want the best stuff. Not like today's games..

"Congratulations! You walked 30 feet to retrieve me my slippers. Here is the sword of Pwnage!" With ridicuous stats and allows you to solo 1 shot everything and is huge and glowing like some roided out rave glow stick from hell.



I never could get the hang of Quad-Kiting or Bardic Mass-Run-Around-In-Circles-Killing :)

For me, EQ was forcing me to group simply because I was not good enough to solo :) Even killing blue or green con (lower level) mobs was difficult at higher levels.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

6/04/13 10:20:27 PM#27

I believe a great gaming experience requires balance in all aspects, and that most definitely includes realism. Make the game too arcade-y, and the player does not feel part of the world. He can't experience immersion to a large degree if everything is streamlined, simplified, and made easy. However, make the game too realistic, and the player experiences more frustration than fun and joy from playing a game. After all, playing games is usually done as a form of entertainment, not work. This all demands a great developer to assess how everything happens in their game in order to achieve that happy medium.

Realism unequivocally has its role within games, but so does convenience. Not only that, real life isn't easy to emulate due to a series of factors, like controls for instance. All in all, developers need to be creative enough to make good use of the tools they have at their disposal to create a believable, yet enjoyable game experience.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5170

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

6/04/13 10:25:40 PM#28

removing "hassles" from games is really detrimental to the game experience in my very personal opinion. These "hassles" are not hassles at all. They are little details that makes any game have more immersion in the virtual world your character lives in.

Removing weapons and bows ammo so they function without projectiles capacity and even a quiver on the back makes the game look fake. The only mmo where being an archer without arrows and quivers made sense was in Cabal online. And that is because the archer class is a force archer. A magical bow summoned by a crystal that shoots magic bolts instead of wooden arrows.

 

Other details like from the OP also are important for game immersion. Even little things like casting fire on something flameable and it actually sets on fire. Interacting with chairs like wow did. Picking up objects to use in the world like GW2 did. Running through grass and the grass moves (GW2 also did this). Other things like throwing water at a fire actually puts it off. NPC reaction towards your actions. Idiotic monsters also break immersion. Tera did a good job with the BAM's AI, they are smarter than other mobs but still kind of dumb. Other mmos just have beyond dumb mobs and thats a big immersion breaker to me when i have to fight mobile target dummies.

 

Fixing the AI and adding all these little things that are not"hassles" at all make any game better and more immersive IMO.

 

EDIT: make every fire spell sets enemies on fire, each ice magic freeze or slow. You set yourself on fire if you cast an explosion skill and you are within range. cast lightning on water makes an aoe effect and if you are in the water it hits you too. All these things are a huge deal when it comes to strategy and even immersion in every fight.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Velocinox

Elite Member

Joined: 3/15/06
Posts: 637

6/04/13 10:44:33 PM#29
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Velocinox
Just like in the hunger thread, you keep coming up with systems you are forced to engage in. That's not a good idea when the payoff is ambiguous as some people's idea of immersion.

 

Now, if you're going to include immersion systems that are entirely opt-in, with no detriment to not using them, then that is fine. People looking to find a better life in the internet can use every system you throw at them, while the ones that are only in-game for a while before they go back to enjoying their life can ignore them and enjoy the game.



That is fine. But does every game have to follow suit?

 

I suppose it does if it wants big numbers instead of differing gameplay options...

Actually I thought I was endorsing options over requirements.

'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than the one you've become familiar with.


How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2945

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/04/13 10:55:38 PM#30


Originally posted by Velocinox

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by Velocinox
Just like in the hunger thread, you keep coming up with systems you are forced to engage in. That's not a good idea when the payoff is ambiguous as some people's idea of immersion.

Now, if you're going to include immersion systems that are entirely opt-in, with no detriment to not using them, then that is fine. People looking to find a better life in the internet can use every system you throw at them, while the ones that are only in-game for a while before they go back to enjoying their life can ignore them and enjoy the game.



That is fine. But does every game have to follow suit?

I suppose it does if it wants big numbers instead of differing gameplay options...



Actually I thought I was endorsing options over requirements.

You were, in an "every game" kind of way. The thing with toggle-able options is it de-levels the playing field for players.

In every MMO that has food and drink, players can "make" their players eat every 4-6 hours. A player can count their arrows/bullets used and keep it at or below a self-imposed number. It really is not the options, but rather keeping all players on an even field. That's why I made the comment I did.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Rasputin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/07/03
Posts: 618

6/05/13 2:58:20 AM#31
Originally posted by Scalpless

Things like food and traveling often distract me from the games and brake my immersion. Why? Because carrying 2390 pork buns with you and eating 20 of them whenever you get hungry is not realistic. Hunger meters aren't realistic. Running in heavy armor and with a huge load on your back for ten minutes without getting tired isn't realistic. Carrying 20 swords on your back, but not being able to pick up one more isn't realistic. Building a sword in ten seconds isn't realistic. Mining the ore needed for that sword in a minute isn't realistic.

See what I'm getting at? Realism has its place in certain genres, but most MMOs don't belong to those genres. When my character is essentially a superhero, having to take care of her "hunger bar" doesn't add immersion. It just feels dumb and reminds me how goofy this MMO universe is. Maybe, if someone made a truly realistic MMO with complex wound modeling, great physics and the inability to take on a 100m long dragon and live, I'd welcome those annoying little things you're talking about.

What is the difference between relying on food and relying on potions? Many games rely on potions for buffs, that are necessary to be competitive.

You can see food as another "potion".

UO had a system, where you would become hungrier and hungrier ("extremely hungry" was the lowest level), but you would never die. You would fizzle more spells and miss more hits, but it was not anything really bad. Just a slight lowering of general effectiveness, but enough for people to care about being fed.

Food can easily be done so it does not become a dominating and focus-stealing factor. But still an interesting factor.

  Rasputin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/07/03
Posts: 618

6/05/13 3:06:32 AM#32

More or less in all the definitions of "game", that I have read, obstacles (which "hassles" are) is part of it.

But the hassles have to be meaningful - meaning they have to allow for meaningful choices - or they will not add to the game, but instead steal focus for irrelevant micromanagement.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5155

6/05/13 3:44:15 AM#33

I just made a new MMO:

 

PRESS HERE TO WIN! ---> [   ]

 

Pretty boring huh?

 

 

"Hassle" is need to give a feeling of progression and achievement. But it is about balance, MMO's should not feel like a hardcore raid from day one.

Immersion is a incredibly complex and subjective issue. For example, I don't like shadows on NPC's, but can put up with them, but I really hate a shadow on my own toon. That's not about game lore but it does distract me now and then. Shadows are of course realistic and what you would expect to see. No two players are ever going to agree on immersion.

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

6/05/13 4:17:34 AM#34
Originally posted by Rasputin
Originally posted by Scalpless

Things like food and traveling often distract me from the games and brake my immersion. Why? Because carrying 2390 pork buns with you and eating 20 of them whenever you get hungry is not realistic. Hunger meters aren't realistic. Running in heavy armor and with a huge load on your back for ten minutes without getting tired isn't realistic. Carrying 20 swords on your back, but not being able to pick up one more isn't realistic. Building a sword in ten seconds isn't realistic. Mining the ore needed for that sword in a minute isn't realistic.

See what I'm getting at? Realism has its place in certain genres, but most MMOs don't belong to those genres. When my character is essentially a superhero, having to take care of her "hunger bar" doesn't add immersion. It just feels dumb and reminds me how goofy this MMO universe is. Maybe, if someone made a truly realistic MMO with complex wound modeling, great physics and the inability to take on a 100m long dragon and live, I'd welcome those annoying little things you're talking about.

What is the difference between relying on food and relying on potions? Many games rely on potions for buffs, that are necessary to be competitive.

You can see food as another "potion".

UO had a system, where you would become hungrier and hungrier ("extremely hungry" was the lowest level), but you would never die. You would fizzle more spells and miss more hits, but it was not anything really bad. Just a slight lowering of general effectiveness, but enough for people to care about being fed.

Food can easily be done so it does not become a dominating and focus-stealing factor. But still an interesting factor.

Its not interesting if it doesn't produce any interesting decisions to the player. Food in such case is just a hoop to jump through. You are encouraged to jump through it so you jump through it. Similarly how Age of Conan had these long term buffs one had to recast whenever he/she died or arrived in a new zone. Its a chore, but you do it anyway because it makes you stronger.

There was hardly any alternative buffs either. You just stacked 'em as high as you could to give you the best possible advantage. Mobs didn't remove them at any point. Those buffs could might as well be passive and automatically on. There's no interesting choice there.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Torik

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2314

6/05/13 11:02:35 AM#35
Originally posted by Scot

I just made a new MMO:

 

PRESS HERE TO WIN! ---> [   ]

 

Pretty boring huh?

 

 

"Hassle" is need to give a feeling of progression and achievement. But it is about balance, MMO's should not feel like a hardcore raid from day one.

Immersion is a incredibly complex and subjective issue. For example, I don't like shadows on NPC's, but can put up with them, but I really hate a shadow on my own toon. That's not about game lore but it does distract me now and then. Shadows are of course realistic and what you would expect to see. No two players are ever going to agree on immersion.

The problem with the way many of the 'old school' games implement 'hassles' is that they essentially add a "Press to remove hassle" button that you have to press periodically or your character becomes weaker.   It becomes just another item on a checklist that you have to check off and you start thinking of ways to automate that action.

  kjempff

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 666

Make worlds not stories

6/05/13 11:17:02 AM#36
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Scot

....

The problem with the way many of the 'old school' games implement 'hassles' is that they essentially add a "Press to remove hassle" button that you have to press periodically or your character becomes weaker.   It becomes just another item on a checklist that you have to check off and you start thinking of ways to automate that action.

If that is the way you think about game, maybe You should ask yourself the question, why Am I playing games ? And in particular Why am I playing roleplaying games ?

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

6/05/13 11:28:15 AM#37
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I can do without the hassle. Games are for entertainment. Either invent a lore reason to get rid of the hassle, or just get rid of it.

So what if we lose some immersion, fun is more important.

Look at long travel ... in a fantasy world, it is trivial to invent some mumbo-jumbo to have teleportation. That beats running the same route again and again (the first time may be fun, the 10th time is a chore).

And many people don't even care about that dressing up part .. just have a LFD teleport to the dungeon ... do you see any player not using it because it breaks immersion?

This is why their are different types of games and entertainment within them. If it isn't something you find fun, then don't play it. But don't campaign to take it away from those who enjoy such features. Yep...those features other find fun in believe it or not.

 

You always seem to be telling everyone items and features don't belong because you don't find them fun. It's not all about you.

Sure it is.  His posts can be all about him, your posts can be all about you.  The only thing that  really matters is the collective opinions of the larger gaming community because those are the opinions that are going to get translated into actual gameplay by developers trying to appeal to a wide audience.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

6/05/13 11:31:17 AM#38
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Velocinox
Just like in the hunger thread, you keep coming up with systems you are forced to engage in. That's not a good idea when the payoff is ambiguous as some people's idea of immersion.

 

Now, if you're going to include immersion systems that are entirely opt-in, with no detriment to not using them, then that is fine. People looking to find a better life in the internet can use every system you throw at them, while the ones that are only in-game for a while before they go back to enjoying their life can ignore them and enjoy the game.



That is fine. But does every game have to follow suit?

 

I suppose it does if it wants big numbers instead of differing gameplay options...

Because every individual developer wants big numbers, of course.  You might have a point if it was all a single developer who could afford to take one or two games and make them niche titles, but when you're talking about different games by different developers who are all competing for the biggest possible audience to pay back their investors, you're not going to find *ANYONE* who is willing to knowingly limit their audience, just to make a tiny minority happy.

Welcome to reality.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  BTrayaL

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/17/08
Posts: 559

6/05/13 11:40:03 AM#39

IMO, what the OP is saying about food/crap/ammo, describes realism, NOT immersion.

For me immersion is all about a smartly designed interface, good sounds and music, atmosphere. For example, I can get immersed in a game like Doom 3 with its dark spaces, freaky sounds, without feeling the need to grab a bite and take a dump around the next corner.

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

6/05/13 11:54:54 AM#40
Originally posted by kjempff
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Scot

....

The problem with the way many of the 'old school' games implement 'hassles' is that they essentially add a "Press to remove hassle" button that you have to press periodically or your character becomes weaker.   It becomes just another item on a checklist that you have to check off and you start thinking of ways to automate that action.

If that is the way you think about game, maybe You should ask yourself the question, why Am I playing games ? And in particular Why am I playing roleplaying games ?

If you have this view about games, particularly roleplaying games, then you need to play better games. Only bad games are whack-a-moles similar to what kjempff describes.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

11 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search