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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I wanted to vomit.

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236 posts found
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5169

Opportunist

6/04/13 12:59:47 PM#181
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Waterlily

On the one hand players complain about a lack of community, and on the other hand they think game hopping is great.

Is adding one and two together so hard.

Who complains about lack of community? I don't play games for "in-game" community. I do that for fun. And yes, game hopping is great.

And this ladies and gentlemen, is why F2P are garbage.

And here it is, another "you have to play and see things my way or you're garbage" argument.  This is nothing more than the "because I said so" reason.

It could be that people who play p2p games do so for the very same reasons Narius does.  There is a reasonable portion of the raid communities in WoW, Rift, and EQ2 that only log on to raid and don't do anything else with the community.

  p4ttythep3rf3ct

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/01/13
Posts: 57

"Keep dancing baby, it's the end of the world."

6/04/13 1:06:02 PM#182

There will always be someone who wants something for nothing I suppose.

 

I haven't come across a F2P game yet that I would write home about.  There's a reason they are free, after all.   

 

I would much rather pay $15 a month for a quality MMORPG than float from f2p to f2p looking for the next game to replace the fond memories I had playing sub-modeled games.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5169

Opportunist

6/04/13 1:06:07 PM#183
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Waterlilly

"nothing dies as fast as a f2p game"?

How come planetside 2 is still going strong then? 3/4 million unique logins per week 6 months after launch.

Something tells me it's more to do with it being a FPS than an MMO.

Something tells me it's because it's really the only true MMO-FPS, aside from it's predecessor.

The point being that FPS have always been more popular and garner a wider appeal over-all than RPGs.  Slapping MMO mechanics on that does nothing to change that fact.

That's really bad logic (because you're arguing a different premise), but if we're going to accept that premise then we could also assert that the reason EVE is popular as a p2p game is because it has full loot pvp in an open economy.   If EVE were F2P right now it would be just as popular.  If what you said is true, then PS2 would be equally as popular as a p2p game.

Basically you're reinforcing that the revenue model has nothing to do with the quality of the game, but it's the game mechanics, not even the community, that draw players to a game.

  Squeak69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 952

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

6/04/13 1:19:26 PM#184
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Waterlilly

"nothing dies as fast as a f2p game"?

How come planetside 2 is still going strong then? 3/4 million unique logins per week 6 months after launch.

Something tells me it's more to do with it being a FPS than an MMO.

Something tells me it's because it's really the only true MMO-FPS, aside from it's predecessor.

The point being that FPS have always been more popular and garner a wider appeal over-all than RPGs.  Slapping MMO mechanics on that does nothing to change that fact.

That's really bad logic (because you're arguing a different premise), but if we're going to accept that premise then we could also assert that the reason EVE is popular as a p2p game is because it has full loot pvp in an open economy.   If EVE were F2P right now it would be just as popular.  If what you said is true, then PS2 would be equally as popular as a p2p game.

Basically you're reinforcing that the revenue model has nothing to do with the quality of the game, but it's the game mechanics, not even the community, that draw players to a game.

EVE tried to go F2P thier player base revolted and forced them to stay P2P

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

6/04/13 1:19:38 PM#185
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Waterlilly

"nothing dies as fast as a f2p game"?

How come planetside 2 is still going strong then? 3/4 million unique logins per week 6 months after launch.

Something tells me it's more to do with it being a FPS than an MMO.

Something tells me it's because it's really the only true MMO-FPS, aside from it's predecessor.

The point being that FPS have always been more popular and garner a wider appeal over-all than RPGs.  Slapping MMO mechanics on that does nothing to change that fact.

Really?

Diablo 3, a ARPG, outsells 99% of the FPS out there. The first 2 Diablos probably do the same.

And how about Mass Effect, Skyrim, Oblivion? They are less popular than FPS? do you have proof?

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

6/04/13 1:33:05 PM#186
Well there are other shooter mmos

Like world of tanks and defiance.

But ps2 is also unique as its the only modern rvr mmo, well maybe gw2 but wvw ain't the same thing imo. reds v greens v blues for 2 weeks ain't the same as cool science guys vs hillbillies & commies for ever.
  Dameonk

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/04
Posts: 1930

6/04/13 1:39:41 PM#187
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vorthanion

The point being that FPS have always been more popular and garner a wider appeal over-all than RPGs.  Slapping MMO mechanics on that does nothing to change that fact.

Really?

Diablo 3, a ARPG, outsells 99% of the FPS out there. The first 2 Diablos probably do the same.

And how about Mass Effect, Skyrim, Oblivion? They are less popular than FPS? do you have proof?

These numbers are from VGCharts, so not 100% accurate, but it's the best we have access to.

Numbers are million units sold.

Diablo 3 - 3.11 - According to Activision this number is closer to 12 million, still a fraction of 1 CoD game and less than BF3.

Skyrim - 14.71 including expansions

Mass Effect - 12.91 - All games

Modern Warfare 3 - 30.04

So yes, they are less popular.

"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

6/04/13 1:42:13 PM#188
Originally posted by Mkilbride

I read this post on another forum...and quite literally wanted to vomit.

 

_____________________________________________________

The Deal Breaker
This is a message mostly towards the devs, but also a statement for my fellow gamers. I've seen bits of Darkfall for quite a few years now. I originally lost interest during my highschool years when everything else in life bogged down on me. Seeing it on steam, I was excited and even pondering whether or not to purchase it like I always wanted to. Then I saw the business model...

That death sentence for any mmo in 2013; $15 a month. Can you even fathom how utterly dissapointed I was? I've seen gameplay videos of this game; they look interesting! Fun! Good! I really, REALLY wanted to play this game soooo badly. $40? Sure! I don't mind paying a good lump of cash for an mmo. Pay once to play forever mmos are by far my favorite; unfortunately that wasn't the case here.

I still considered buying the game for awhile, but eventually came to the conclusion that in doing so, I was making a statement not just to the devs of this game, but all devs for any mmo, that subscription fees are acceptable. They're not. Cash shops; expansion packs; things like that are more than welcomed. But blatant subscription fees are a thing of the past. An ugly archaic practice that can not compete with other business practices these days. Something I have to vote 'no' at with my wallet :/

It's the deal breaker for me, and I'm sorry to see it happen to what looked like a really good game. I hope those of you playing this game are enjoying it thoroughly for that extra $15 a month. As for the rest of you considering whether or not to purchase this game, take into consideration what paying may mean for the rest of the gaming community. What will those added votes, your payments, do to influence the industry later on? Are you alright with the return of the subscription era? Do you wan't to motivate developers and publishers to find compromise in better business models that don't tax players? Think long and hard about this before you hit that 'purchase' button.

Best of wishes.
 
__________________________________________________
 
Your thoughts?

Both opinions are drama queen attitudes.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 14386

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

6/04/13 1:45:45 PM#189
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well there are other shooter mmos

Like world of tanks and defiance.

But ps2 is also unique as its the only modern rvr mmo, well maybe gw2 but wvw ain't the same thing imo. reds v greens v blues for 2 weeks ain't the same as cool science guys vs hillbillies & commies for ever.

Shooters yes, FPS no... :P

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  Briansho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/06
Posts: 4780

Functionless Art is Simply Tolerated Vandalism...We Are The Vandals.

6/04/13 2:49:32 PM#190
An  open world PVP sandbox MMO going subscription? How about item mall? They could always go the RCE route like Entropia and make people pay for repairs and items and slow down skill gain.

Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  theAsna

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 297

6/04/13 3:31:31 PM#191

 

I acknowledge that some people won't play an MMO if it is based on a subscription model. But then most subscription only MMOs that I had played included a month of free game time (ofc you had to create an account ).

 

If that free month isn't enough to get a solid impression then I don't know what else could. Would a F2P model really be an incentive to play the game? How long will people need to determine that they like or dislike a game?

 

As others have pointed out a subscription based payment model is more upfront with the costs. You'll know what it costs. If you pay the subscription then you can access the whole game. The subscription fee lets you play for a whole month. Whenever you want to play during that month (ofc not during scheduled maintenance times).

F2P games try to nickel and dime you as much as possible. You can end up paying more than with a subscription fee. The other extreme is also possible. You can end up paying next to nothing for countless hours of entertainment.

People can argue a lot about a game's quality. In the end it is a subjective decision whether to play or not to play a game. Nonetheless there was some effort involved in making a game and there is a continued effort in maintaining and "improving" a game. Sometimes I get the impression that a portion of the F2P playerbase are simply freeriders. I dunno if the F2P model is sustainable. I hope this spectrum of the MMO genre will take the next step in evolution and include in-game advertising (like on TV). Happy immersive gaming...

  Edeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/10
Posts: 513

6/04/13 4:16:46 PM#192

Paying 15$ a month, or paying a cash shop.  In the end, the casino always wins... wait what!?

 

Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2714

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/04/13 8:38:36 PM#193


Originally posted by ShakyMo
Also waterlilly

Planetside 2 is sonys most successful mmo in terms of concurrent players.

There are more people playing ps2 today, than were playing eq1 at its peak. 50% more.



With more people playing MMOs now, is that hard to imagine? Think if they did NOT have those numbers with the playerbase to draw from today.

Comparing one game that costs players to play and another game that has no cost is really not fair, don't you think? EQ had what, maybe 400K players at peak? That's 6 Million a month (400,000 * 15). How much is PS2 making a month? How many of those 3/4 of a million players pay anything into the game?

Is success measured by number of players, or income from the players who are playing? Maybe a combination of the two?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/04/13 8:44:39 PM#194
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by ShakyMo
Also waterlilly

 

Planetside 2 is sonys most successful mmo in terms of concurrent players.

There are more people playing ps2 today, than were playing eq1 at its peak. 50% more.



With more people playing MMOs now, is that hard to imagine? Think if they did NOT have those numbers with the playerbase to draw from today.

 

Comparing one game that costs players to play and another game that has no cost is really not fair, don't you think? EQ had what, maybe 400K players at peak? That's 6 Million a month (400,000 * 15). How much is PS2 making a month? How many of those 3/4 of a million players pay anything into the game?

Is success measured by number of players, or income from the players who are playing? Maybe a combination of the two?

 Thats true.  But look at swtor (not past performance or how much it costs just today's revenue)

500,000 subscibers and 2 million f2p players.  That is enough to turn any devs head.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2714

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/04/13 9:00:35 PM#195


Originally posted by Torvaldr
There were how many games available at the time, you know from 1999 - 2004?  You basically had a choice of Lineage, UO, DAoC, EQ, AO, and  AC.

Can not let this one go unanswered...

There were about 60 games available in 2004, not your measly handful.

1999 had 10 MMOs out already, released prior to 1999.

  • 1996 - Furcadia
  • 1996 - Meridian59
  • 1996 - The Realm Online
  • 1997 - Hostile Space
  • 1997 - Tibia (When did it close down?)
  • 1997 - Ulitima Online
  • 1998 - Clan Lord
  • 1998 - Kraal Kingdoms
  • 1998 - Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds
  • 1998 - Underlight: Shadows of Truth

1999 saw the release of 6 new MMOs.

  • Dark Ages
  • EverQuest
  • Ferion
  • Ogre Island
  • The 4th Coming
  • Utopia

2000 had no new MMOs released.

2001 introduced 7 new MMOs into the market.

  • Kingdom of Draakar
  • WWII Online: Battleground Europe
  • Anarchy Online
  • Shattered Galaxy
  • Dark Age of Camelot
  • Priston Tale
  • Evernight: Reign of Darkness

2002 had 3 new entries.

  • Astonia III
  • Ragnarok Online
  • Darkspace

2003 was a huge year bringing in 14 new games.

  • There
  • Entropia Universe
  • Eve Online
  • Planetside
  • Tibia
  • With Your Destiny
  • Disney's Toontown Adventures
  • Second Life
  • MU Online
  • Helbreath
  • Final Fantasy XI
  • Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted
  • Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates
  • Gekkeiju Online
  • Star Wars: Galaxies

2004 was another stellar year with 21 new games, including WoW.

  • Roblox
  • Starport: Galactic Empires
  • Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn
  • Ashen Empires
  • Runescape
  • Fall of Rome
  • Endless Online
  • Lineage 2
  • Travian
  • Ryzom
  • Neocron 2
  • Star Sonata 2
  • Vendetta Online
  • KAL Online
  • EverQuest II
  • Conquer Online
  • World of Warcraft
  • Terraworld Online
  • Habbo
  • City of Heroes

I do not think any of the above games, with the exception of Tibia, closed down before 2004. I could be wrong here.

People seem to think that "way back when" we did NOT have choices, that we played games that we had to play because there were no others. This is so wrong. Sure, not each and every one of these were great games, but each had their playerbase and lasted awhile.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2714

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/04/13 9:03:10 PM#196


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Also waterlilly

Planetside 2 is sonys most successful mmo in terms of concurrent players.

There are more people playing ps2 today, than were playing eq1 at its peak. 50% more.



With more people playing MMOs now, is that hard to imagine? Think if they did NOT have those numbers with the playerbase to draw from today.

Comparing one game that costs players to play and another game that has no cost is really not fair, don't you think? EQ had what, maybe 400K players at peak? That's 6 Million a month (400,000 * 15). How much is PS2 making a month? How many of those 3/4 of a million players pay anything into the game?

Is success measured by number of players, or income from the players who are playing? Maybe a combination of the two?



Thats true.  But look at swtor (not past performance or how much it costs just today's revenue)

500,000 subscibers and 2 million f2p players.  That is enough to turn any devs head.



That's a good example :) Is that sub number up from before F2P, too?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

6/04/13 9:04:22 PM#197
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Waterlilly

"nothing dies as fast as a f2p game"?

How come planetside 2 is still going strong then? 3/4 million unique logins per week 6 months after launch.

Something tells me it's more to do with it being a FPS than an MMO.

Something tells me it's because it's really the only true MMO-FPS, aside from it's predecessor.

The point being that FPS have always been more popular and garner a wider appeal over-all than RPGs.  Slapping MMO mechanics on that does nothing to change that fact.

Really?

Diablo 3, a ARPG, outsells 99% of the FPS out there. The first 2 Diablos probably do the same.

And how about Mass Effect, Skyrim, Oblivion? They are less popular than FPS? do you have proof?

 

How many diablo style games out there are hugely popular compared to the plethora of FPS franchises that are extremely popular on both PC and consoles.

  superniceguy

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2228

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

6/04/13 9:07:34 PM#198
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by ShakyMo
Also waterlilly 

 

Planetside 2 is sonys most successful mmo in terms of concurrent players.

There are more people playing ps2 today, than were playing eq1 at its peak. 50% more.



With more people playing MMOs now, is that hard to imagine? Think if they did NOT have those numbers with the playerbase to draw from today.

 

Comparing one game that costs players to play and another game that has no cost is really not fair, don't you think? EQ had what, maybe 400K players at peak? That's 6 Million a month (400,000 * 15). How much is PS2 making a month? How many of those 3/4 of a million players pay anything into the game?

Is success measured by number of players, or income from the players who are playing? Maybe a combination of the two?

 Thats true.  But look at swtor (not past performance or how much it costs just today's revenue)

500,000 subscibers and 2 million f2p players.  That is enough to turn any devs head.

SWTOR had just under 500K subs the other month, when Makeb was launched, where most people subbed just to get Makeb for $10, it is no doubt a lot less than that now. Also they stated it was 1.7 million new free accounts, not 2 million

Clone Wars Adventures achieved 10 million users, so SWTOR numbers are not exactly great

What was great was that it managed to sell 2 million copies at launch, with players expecting to pay $15 per month. This just shows that people are willing to pay $15 per month for a quality game. Subs then dropped and it had to go F2P because SWTOR was not a quality game in the end. After SWTOR people may not bother with P2P games only because it is just a matter of time before they switch to F2P. Although if a game is awesome, then a monthly fee is not going to stop people playing it. Subs may start off small, as people now will sit on the fence, but then increase to the millions, like WOW. If the game is just average then the subs will drop until they are forced to go F2P

P2P / $15 per month is still viable, just needs an awesome game for it

  Ladrann27

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/13
Posts: 43

6/05/13 3:29:06 AM#199
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Eir_S

And I think there's always going to be the Gun Jumping contingent that feel that simply because someone doesn't want to pay means they can't.  Fortunately, you're wrong and subs are going the way of the dodo either way.

Nothing dies as fast as a F2P game. How long does it take before 90% of the playerbase has bailed on an F2P game? 6 minutes? 7?

Maybe we should ask that guy from this forum who keeps hopping from MMO to MMO how long he stays in an F2P, I bet he's onto another MMO before the evening is over.

And who can blame you people. You have 1001 shallow and meaningless F2P to choose from.

Care showing us some examples of these dead F2P MMOS? do you know what is ironic about your post? it was P2P MMOS that went F2P because they were all shallow and meaningless. 


And they went F2P because they were shallow and meaningless. Which again strengthens the point that most of the MMO's that are F2P are mediocre games at best.

 

And that is also why people will still sub for a good game. We have many live examples still going strong right now.

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1843

6/05/13 7:28:48 AM#200
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by shinkan

the good thing about the guy making a stand against subscription is that I wont have to run into these guys in any game.

'these people'? you are being very vague. You make it sound as if P2P communities are full of angels. I will just give you examples of the two most rotten P2P communities.

WOW

Eve Online.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Waterlily

On the one hand players complain about a lack of community, and on the other hand they think game hopping is great.

Is adding one and two together so hard.

Who complains about lack of community? I don't play games for "in-game" community. I do that for fun. And yes, game hopping is great.

And this ladies and gentlemen, is why F2P are garbage.

 

Yeah because we know that it is an irrefutable FACT that all players who play P2P games do so for the community..right? 

He didn't even imply that P2P games are full of angels, but like him, I find F2P game audiences to be much, much more annoying than those attracted to games made for the subscription model.

 

I also find that when a developer focuses more on gameplay rather than the cash shop, it builds and sustains a feeling of community far better than any game I've played that focuses on revenue from their cash shop.

No that is exactly what he was trying to do. Comparing F2P communities with P2P and trying to make it look as if 'these people' only exists in F2P games. Even when no F2P game can even come close to rotten communities of WOW and especially Eve Online which is notorious for harassment, scams, real life threats, griefing, abuse..you name it they got it.

So much for focusing on gameplay instead of cash shop right? 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

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