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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Perma-Death done right

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67 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19755

6/03/13 2:42:06 PM#21
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
 

If you're interested in mainstream please GTFO of this post. We all are quite aware that Perma-Death is not for the peanut gallery, and will not be embraced by the mainstream mouthbreathers. Now please get back to your game with Bright yellow exclamation points over the treadmill quest giver's heads.\

 

Or, i can just stay here and air my opinion, which is as valid as yours.

We are quite aware that some are ranting about PD every 3 days here. I don't see why you have the exclusive right of flogging a dead horse.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17210

6/03/13 2:53:28 PM#22
Originally posted by MMOExposed

its a flawed design concept that many here on this forum hate to admit.

The only flaw is how people are thinking it should work. They are essentially taking the systems of known games and in their minds just "adding permadeath" on to them as opposed to re-imagining an entire system based on this concept.

There is a paradigm shift that needs to happen but people are either not willing or incapable of making it.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7735

Logic be damned!

6/03/13 2:59:23 PM#23

Societies need rules and order of law to function.

MMOs are virtual societies.

MMOs have never gotten the rules and order of law right, at least not in terms of games with FFA PvP.

If some MMO were to somehow get the FFA PvP rules and order of law right, you could make a feasibly well designed game with perma-death.

Only way to do that, really, is to remove the disconnect between player action and character action - especially the anonymity of online interaction - which is a big no no.

So it'll never happen.

Now Playing: Destiny

  Joejc7135

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/13
Posts: 204

6/03/13 3:08:54 PM#24

Perma-death is a terrible idea. It's a griefers paradise no matter what way you do it. Although I wouldn't mind it being made like hardcore characters from diablo. An option that those who choose it are free to take. This way they can put it in every game and the rest of us can play without having to worry about this guy....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT0-OL_71yU

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19755

6/03/13 3:55:43 PM#25
Originally posted by BadSpock

Societies need rules and order of law to function.

MMOs are virtual societies.

nah .. MMOs are entertainment products. Any resemblence to a virtual society is purely coincidental and not a required part.

  General-Zod

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 558

Kneel.

6/03/13 5:00:35 PM#26
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by MMOExposed

its a flawed design concept that many here on this forum hate to admit.

The only flaw is how people are thinking it should work. They are essentially taking the systems of known games and in their minds just "adding permadeath" on to them as opposed to re-imagining an entire system based on this concept.

There is a paradigm shift that needs to happen but people are either not willing or incapable of making it.

Bingo

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5538

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/03/13 6:22:45 PM#27
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by MMOExposed

its a flawed design concept that many here on this forum hate to admit.

The only flaw is how people are thinking it should work. They are essentially taking the systems of known games and in their minds just "adding permadeath" on to them as opposed to re-imagining an entire system based on this concept.

There is a paradigm shift that needs to happen but people are either not willing or incapable of making it.

Bullshit. You can stick that "you just don't get it"-card right back into your pocket, mister. And if you ever want to be taken seriously, you'll never try to use it again.

Obviously if a game uses permadeath it needs to be designed for it from the ground up. I doubt many disagree with this. The point is, even if you designed it in such a way, it would be fairly problematic. I, for one, would question its value for all the trouble and financial risks it brings. It is unlikely worth it.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3274

Poacher killer.

6/03/13 6:27:39 PM#28
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock

Societies need rules and order of law to function.

MMOs are virtual societies.

nah .. MMOs are entertainment products. Any resemblence to a virtual society is purely coincidental and not a required part.

Yah...MMOs have thousands (or more) of real people playing their characters at the same time inside of the same game world. They are by their very nature virtual societies.

P.S. WOT is not an MMO and neither is D3 so please spare everyone the BS.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  TheJoda

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/10
Posts: 492

"Yes...... that's a Duck Staff of D00M!!!"

6/03/13 6:29:48 PM#29
Permadeath don't work in MMO's unless you give the players the option to use or not like D2 and D3 did.  Spending hours grinding, raiding, or questing to lose it all due to getting ganked by 5 tards makes no sense for a MMO.

....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3274

Poacher killer.

6/03/13 6:35:54 PM#30
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by MMOExposed

its a flawed design concept that many here on this forum hate to admit.

The only flaw is how people are thinking it should work. They are essentially taking the systems of known games and in their minds just "adding permadeath" on to them as opposed to re-imagining an entire system based on this concept.

There is a paradigm shift that needs to happen but people are either not willing or incapable of making it.

Bullshit. You can stick that "you just don't get it"-card right back into your pocket, mister. And if you ever want to be taken seriously, you'll never try to use it again.....

 

Nope. Sovrath is an intelligent and respected member of this community that will always be taken seriously. His post is well written and touches on some very real issues. I'm actually kind of surprised it caused you to become so dramatic. Or am I? ;)

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5538

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/03/13 6:43:24 PM#31
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock

Societies need rules and order of law to function.

MMOs are virtual societies.

nah .. MMOs are entertainment products. Any resemblence to a virtual society is purely coincidental and not a required part.

Yah...MMOs have thousands (or more) of real people playing their characters at the same time inside of the same game world. They are by their very nature virtual societies.

P.S. WOT is not an MMO and neither is D3 so please spare everyone the BS.

Wait. You're saying WoT and D3 don't have virtual societies?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

6/03/13 6:48:51 PM#32

Permadeath is only rewarding if the reward is insane power. SWG for example did this with amazingly powerful Jedi during Pre-CU... the problem is that an alpha class in any game that can destroy groups of people will always cause balance issues. Eventually things just spiral out of control.

I'm glad some people enjoy permadeath just for the rush. I enjoyed living on the edge in Path of Exile's hardcore league for a while. But the rush just ends at some point for me.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17210

6/03/13 6:49:41 PM#33
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by MMOExposed

its a flawed design concept that many here on this forum hate to admit.

The only flaw is how people are thinking it should work. They are essentially taking the systems of known games and in their minds just "adding permadeath" on to them as opposed to re-imagining an entire system based on this concept.

There is a paradigm shift that needs to happen but people are either not willing or incapable of making it.

Bullshit. You can stick that "you just don't get it"-card right back into your pocket, mister. And if you ever want to be taken seriously, you'll never try to use it again.

Obviously if a game uses permadeath it needs to be designed for it from the ground up. I doubt many disagree with this. The point is, even if you designed it in such a way, it would be fairly problematic. I, for one, would question its value for all the trouble and financial risks it brings. It is unlikely worth it.

And yet time after time people point out that players don't want to lose all their hard work, their progression, their "gear". On top of that there is the whole "griefer" argument whereby a perma-death game is solely populated by victims and griefers, not taking into account that systems might be added where "griefing" becomes more trouble than it's worth.

So "yeah" I'll use it and use it often until I see arguments that actually discount those systems. don't' see many of them when these threads come up.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/03/13 6:57:52 PM#34

I just can't see how it could be done in a way where you could still have meaningfull progression.

Family type units are one way but I must admit I would end up not caring about the family pretty quick, just less attachment after so many deaths.

That was my problem with game of thrones, I know they did well, I just stopped caring about the characters.

Last nights episode when Cate killed the river lord guys wife, "I'll just get another".  No attachment.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3274

Poacher killer.

6/03/13 7:22:41 PM#35
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock

Societies need rules and order of law to function.

MMOs are virtual societies.

nah .. MMOs are entertainment products. Any resemblence to a virtual society is purely coincidental and not a required part.

Yah...MMOs have thousands (or more) of real people playing their characters at the same time inside of the same game world. They are by their very nature virtual societies.

P.S. WOT is not an MMO and neither is D3 so please spare everyone the BS.

Wait. You're saying WoT and D3 don't have virtual societies?

I wouldn't call them virtual societies at all. WOT for example is nothing more than a than couple of handfuls of people at a time playing a TPS/FPS lobby game with a dash of progression thrown in. I do like the game but virtual society? Hell no.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2233

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

6/03/13 9:31:23 PM#36

We had permadeath in the MUSH days.  Then again, those games were about playing in character.  Combat was rare.  You could go weeks without having anyone fight at all.  And when fights did happen?  Well, they were full of narrative, decisive and deadly.  Even if you won, you could suffer permanent injury.

Permadeath worked in the MUSH days because they weren't about xXDEATHDEALERXx twinking out a combat toon.  They were about telling a collective story.  Some of the most powerful folks didn't fight at all, and would probably die real easily if they were attacked.  They got to where they were because of their roleplaying abilities and the ability to GM whole factions through events.

So, why didn't a guy just roll up a toon, go up to the head of the faction, pema-kill him, and say "haha I pwnz j00, LOL"?

Because that would be LAME, which is a word that has--regrettably--been lost in our online gaming vocabulary.

What is "lameness" in gaming terms?  Well, it is performing an action that the mechanics allow, but is totally against the spirit of what the game is trying to accomplish.  But this is a foreign concept these days, when players see games like Sirlin does.  Today's player sees nothing wrong with killing Lord British if the mechanics allow it.  Legal?  Yes.  Lame?  Most certainly.

I have no problem with permadeath, if the game is played by people who aren't lam0rz.  But I doubt that anybody here really knows the difference between something that isn't lame, and something that is.

Without that inner sense of knowing what is lame, one can only assume that the game will be lame.  How do I know?  Because you permadeathers always seem to argue on the grounds of what you'd like to encourage.  But you never really talk about what the game should be about.

Or, to put it another way, who is the one who ought to be enjoying himself in your permadeath game?  What are you going to do to promote this type of player?  Perhaps--most importantly--how do you prevent your game from becoming lame?

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19755

6/03/13 9:37:29 PM#37
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock

Societies need rules and order of law to function.

MMOs are virtual societies.

nah .. MMOs are entertainment products. Any resemblence to a virtual society is purely coincidental and not a required part.

Yah...MMOs have thousands (or more) of real people playing their characters at the same time inside of the same game world. They are by their very nature virtual societies.

P.S. WOT is not an MMO and neither is D3 so please spare everyone the BS.

Nah .. most of them will be running instance dungeons & raids. If you call those instances "same game world", then it should apply to D3 and WOT too.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19755

6/03/13 9:39:06 PM#38
Originally posted by Cecropia
 

I wouldn't call them virtual societies at all. WOT for example is nothing more than a than couple of handfuls of people at a time playing a TPS/FPS lobby game with a dash of progression thrown in. I do like the game but virtual society? Hell no.

Sounds like many MMOs, except the lobby is a 3D city instead of a menu.

If talking to a person in a 3D city is "socializing", then chatting with a person on a lobby menu is the same. Heck you use the same style text chat box.

I can do that in WOW, as well as D3, and other non-MMOs.

 

  BatCakez

Novice Member

Joined: 12/20/07
Posts: 127

6/03/13 9:46:07 PM#39

Trollols are considered 'cool' today.

Depending on the function of the game and how social it is, nobody cares if you perma die, or get ganked until the cows come home. Reason being, there is no atmosphere of being a community to support each other.

However, if you build the game correctly, people will group together to fight back these kinds of forces.

The whole Trollol of the MMO permadeath world has no honor these days. I don't think they even know the definition of it. Getting someone while they're down or fighting a mob is just.. really lame. It's like they couldn't even stand up on their own.

  Quirhid

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Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5538

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

6/04/13 5:02:01 AM#40
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I wouldn't call them virtual societies at all. WOT for example is nothing more than a than couple of handfuls of people at a time playing a TPS/FPS lobby game with a dash of progression thrown in. I do like the game but virtual society? Hell no.

WoT has quite a lively community playing it. The crucial part of it is the clan wars, which I'm guessing you didn't participate in.

You're wrong.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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