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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » That MMO die so fast is the result of F2P.

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173 posts found
  User Deleted
6/03/13 9:54:17 AM#141

Whether the game is free or has a sub doesn't determine whether the game will have longevity/replayability.  Some people assume that if you pay monthly for a game it is some how better than if you didn't pay anything.  That's already been proven not to be the case.

 

MMOs die fast because they lack the elements of longevity/replayability... and of course the number one cause of all... they are all exactly the same.  Free or pay to play... sameness wears thin the fastest.

  Derros

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 949

6/03/13 10:01:51 AM#142
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

Wow is the most successful themepark and Eve is the most successful sandbox, and both are P2P.  why they are the most succesful in their expertise field even requiring the absurd amount of 15$bucks a month since 2004 and 2003?  

You are forgetting about the time investment factor.  Everyone plays WoW, because thats the game they've always played, thats where their friends are, that's where they've invest so much of themselves, so its very hard to leave.  Although that is slowly changing, it is an 8 year old game after all.  But people arent going to any one place, they are either leaving the MMO market or filtering to any number of other MMOs.

 

WoW was a product of perfect timing, no-one had tried a more casual minded approach to a game before.  Most games required a significant time sink in order to progress in their game world, EQ being the obvious example.  WoW did away with that, which allowed it to be much more accessible to many more people, people that had no horse in the MMO race, no prior commitments, so they could jump right in.  Add to that fact that the blizzard name was still riding high on the wave of D2 and WC3, (as it had always been) it had instant name recongnition for quality.  WoW was the prefect storm of market conditions, hundreds of thousands and millions of people wanted to play a MMO, but there wasnt one that they felt they could play and still have a life.  Boom, WoW.

 

WoW CANNOT be repeated, the market is different now

 

EvE is a strange bird.  I believe its current success is, in part due to the many dedicated players who adopted the game early and helped it, and its economy and political structure mature, so that it could be more accessible down the line.  In other words people were patient and allowed for the game to grow.  From what I have been told, it was buggy as all hell on release.  People dont leave EvE for obvious reasons, MASSIVE time investment and a sense of ownership, not to mention a lack of other options.

 

Honestly though, many long time players dont even pay a sub, they get plex and pay for the game that way.

 

The fact that both games had a sub had absolutely zero impact on why they were successful.  They had a sub, because when they were releases, thats what MMOs had.

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1460

6/03/13 10:06:49 AM#143
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community.

Does paying an entry fee at a club/party/concert make you more willing to interact with others than if you had gotten in for free?

That seems like a real leap of logic. Is this another "keep the riff-raff out" thing?

People who pay a sub are generally invested in some way in the game.  The ones that stay do so for a specific reason either they really like the game systems or more likely they enjoy the social interaction's they have built.  I have said before WoW's largest strength at this point is social momentum.  People keep paying that sub every month because they have social ties to the game.

It's not that F2P games can't have those same kinds of ties as they surly can so much as they tend not to try very hard to foster them if at all.  It's a shame really because if a F2P game took a longer term approach and softened the up front pay wall but found ways to foster community building they could make much more money long term.

Granted even most modern P2P MMO's have done a horrible job at this which is one of the reasons why none of them have really been spectacular success.  It's funny how developers copy every single element of WoW except the one that contributed the most to it's success.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18368

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/03/13 10:13:50 AM#144
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community.

Does paying an entry fee at a club/party/concert make you more willing to interact with others than if you had gotten in for free?

That seems like a real leap of logic. Is this another "keep the riff-raff out" thing?

Actually, sometimes it does.  Let's look at the analogy of a the golf country club.  If you play golf at a public course, no matter how often you will never build the same bonds with the other players as people who join a private country club.

Of course, they are joining partly to keep out the "riff-raff", which of course doesn't actually work any better than it does in MMO's, but they definitely develop more social bonds based on their commonly shared "membership" than the public golf course player does.

Is it the fee that generates this sense of belonging? No, it's part of being something special, a member, and I do believe people who pay a sub fee are more vested in playing a single MMORPG for longer periods of times than those who are more tourists to the game.

 

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3645

6/03/13 10:22:41 AM#145
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community.

Does paying an entry fee at a club/party/concert make you more willing to interact with others than if you had gotten in for free?

That seems like a real leap of logic. Is this another "keep the riff-raff out" thing?

Actually, sometimes it does.  Let's look at the analogy of a the golf country club.  If you play golf at a public course, no matter how often you will never build the same bonds with the other players as people who join a private country club.

Of course, they are joining partly to keep out the "riff-raff", which of course doesn't actually work any better than it does in MMO's, but they definitely develop more social bonds based on their commonly shared "membership" than the public golf course player does.

Is it the fee that generates this sense of belonging? No, it's part of being something special, a member, and I do believe people who pay a sub fee are more vested in playing a single MMORPG for longer periods of times than those who are more tourists to the game.

 

That might be true if free games didn't have guilds, but most people looking for the social aspect of an mmo look for it in the same small groups of " exclusive" memberships guilds offer in both types of games.

Free to play for sure has more people come and go but people quitting are a part of every mmo. You make friends with the people who stay regardless of the payment type.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

6/03/13 10:22:44 AM#146
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community.

Does paying an entry fee at a club/party/concert make you more willing to interact with others than if you had gotten in for free?

That seems like a real leap of logic. Is this another "keep the riff-raff out" thing?

lets say i only want to troll/cheat/trashtalk in a mmorpg, what game i choose... a game with monetary barriers or a f2p game with zero barriers... 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17959

6/03/13 1:00:48 PM#147
Originally posted by Waterlily

Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.

Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.

Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.

Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.

 

In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.

As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.

As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.

In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.

And the problem is?

There are still so many out there and i can continue to hop for a long while. Heck, STO, DCUO, LOTRO are still running strong and there are new F2P games coming out often.

(Warframe, Star Conflict, and Marvel Heroes just this year).

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

6/03/13 2:32:01 PM#148
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community.

Does paying an entry fee at a club/party/concert make you more willing to interact with others than if you had gotten in for free?

That seems like a real leap of logic. Is this another "keep the riff-raff out" thing?

Actually, sometimes it does.  Let's look at the analogy of a the golf country club.  If you play golf at a public course, no matter how often you will never build the same bonds with the other players as people who join a private country club.

Of course, they are joining partly to keep out the "riff-raff", which of course doesn't actually work any better than it does in MMO's, but they definitely develop more social bonds based on their commonly shared "membership" than the public golf course player does.

Is it the fee that generates this sense of belonging? No, it's part of being something special, a member, and I do believe people who pay a sub fee are more vested in playing a single MMORPG for longer periods of times than those who are more tourists to the game.

That might be true if free games didn't have guilds, but most people looking for the social aspect of an mmo look for it in the same small groups of " exclusive" memberships guilds offer in both types of games.

Free to play for sure has more people come and go but people quitting are a part of every mmo. You make friends with the people who stay regardless of the payment type.


Great point, DamonVile.

Kyleran, when paying for the exclusive country club over the free golf course, the 'special' is in the priority and extras that come with membership, not just in having paid the fee. Subscription MMOs don't offer such things over the F2P MMOs. If anything, such a situation only exists within the F2P MMOs that also offer subs or VIP options.

  UnleadedRev

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/07/10
Posts: 313

6/03/13 2:35:10 PM#149

As many posters have said....

Developers and Publishers do not create F2P games with the main focus of them being FUN.

Instead, they focus on how to con players out of their money.

If a game is fun, players will spend money in a F2P game...but, design it as a money grubber, where in the long run F2P costs you more money than a subscription would....well...it fails

Fear the Alien, the Psyker, the Heretic, the moronic Steam Moderator.

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

6/04/13 5:54:37 AM#150
Originally posted by pmiles

Whether the game is free or has a sub doesn't determine whether the game will have longevity/replayability.  

Yah it does.

The OP already addressed it, but Asian MMO in China last literally months and they close them off, and they start again with a new game.

The West simply isn't at the same F2P level yet where MMO are throw-away games like single player games, but if China is anything to go by, the West will be there soon too.

That would never be possible with P2P since that would bankrupt them. The F2P model allows them to amass the same amount of money in a few months from whale that would take years with P2P.

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

6/04/13 6:01:35 AM#151

For anyone who is still clueless how F2P work,  or people in denial.

F2P get their money through the leveling process, people want to level faster than others, they want to make the grind fun, they need gear, XP, items. That's where whales and regular players spend the money. Those first few weeks / months, is where insane amounts of money are spent in the cash shop.

After those first few weeks are over, it doesn't matter anymore. So the company needs a new game to do that same trick once more. And they make another MMO. F2P MMO companies often have 10 MMO or more. Blizzard has 1 MMO.

The payment model directly influences the longevity of the game.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

6/04/13 6:22:56 AM#152
Originally posted by CalmOceans

For anyone who is still clueless how F2P work,  or people in denial.

F2P get their money through the leveling process, people want to level faster than others, they want to make the grind fun, they need gear, XP, items. That's where whales and regular players spend the money. Those first few weeks / months, is where insane amounts of money are spent in the cash shop.

After those first few weeks are over, it doesn't matter anymore. So the company needs a new game to do that same trick once more. And they make another MMO. F2P MMO companies often have 10 MMO or more. Blizzard has 1 MMO.

The payment model directly influences the longevity of the game.

Which is why PWI, Wizard 101, Shattered Galaxy, Flyff, Habbo Hotel, DOFUS, Maple Story, Club Penguin and Navy Field all closed down 6-8 years ago.

My mistake. They're all still running.


"F2P MMO companies often have 10 MMO or more. Blizzard has 1 MMO."

Yes, the outlier has 1. SOE, Funcom, EA, Turbine, and NCSoft - the majority of the other companies that dominated subscription gaming for the past decade or so - all have more than one.

 

Let's not toss around 'clueless' and 'in denial' so freely.

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

6/04/13 7:27:27 AM#153
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"F2P MMO companies often have 10 MMO or more. Blizzard has 1 MMO."

Yes, the outlier has 1. SOE, Funcom, EA, Turbine, and NCSoft - the majority of the other companies that dominated subscription gaming for the past decade or so - all have more than one.

 

All those companies use F2P now.

Thanks for proving my point!

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

6/04/13 7:30:49 AM#154
Originally posted by Loktofeit 

Let's not toss around 'clueless' and 'in denial' so freely.

irony

  Derros

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 949

6/04/13 7:42:09 AM#155
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"F2P MMO companies often have 10 MMO or more. Blizzard has 1 MMO."

Yes, the outlier has 1. SOE, Funcom, EA, Turbine, and NCSoft - the majority of the other companies that dominated subscription gaming for the past decade or so - all have more than one.

 

All those companies use F2P now.

Thanks for proving my point!

They use F2P because the sub models didnt work out for them. 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9953

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/04/13 7:54:16 AM#156


Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Loktofeit "F2P MMO companies often have 10 MMO or more. Blizzard has 1 MMO." Yes, the outlier has 1. SOE, Funcom, EA, Turbine, and NCSoft - the majority of the other companies that dominated subscription gaming for the past decade or so - all have more than one.  
All those companies use F2P now.

Thanks for proving my point!




You conveniently ignored the list of F2P MMOs that have been running for a very long time. At least a couple of them have millions of players.

The problem with what you're saying is that developers could follow a short development cycle, releasing many games in a row expecting players to play for a short period of time and use B2P or P2P payment models. Whether intentional or not, this has been done. The payment model doesn't determine what kind of game a developer builds.

You can prove any point you want if you ignore all of the information that disputes your point. For instance, you are attributing Blizzard's lack of additional MMOs to their payment model while ignoring their glacially slow development process and the fact that they have other games generating income for the company. Not to mention that WoW is the outlier-ingest outlier that ever outlier-ed.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  apsjink

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 11

6/04/13 8:09:42 AM#157

As far as I'm concerned the OP is spot on in his/her analysis. The price model of most F2P mmo:s today just don't appeal to me. They are heading more and more towards the awful P2W. I want to play and compete in a world on equal terms with everybody else I see around me.

One model I think works although is a F2P/P2P combo in which you get to experience only a limited subset of the entire MMO if you play F2P. This could be limiting the zones/dungeons you have access to for example. But if you go decide to go P2P everything opens up to you and you are on equal terms with everyone.

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

6/04/13 8:54:45 AM#158
Originally posted by Derros
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"F2P MMO companies often have 10 MMO or more. Blizzard has 1 MMO."

Yes, the outlier has 1. SOE, Funcom, EA, Turbine, and NCSoft - the majority of the other companies that dominated subscription gaming for the past decade or so - all have more than one.

 

All those companies use F2P now.

Thanks for proving my point!

They use F2P because the sub models didnt work out for them. 

SOE's games had been running for over a decade on P2P.

They changed to F2P because it makes more money, that's why.

Same with NCSoft.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9953

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/04/13 9:26:10 AM#159


Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Derros

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Loktofeit "F2P MMO companies often have 10 MMO or more. Blizzard has 1 MMO." Yes, the outlier has 1. SOE, Funcom, EA, Turbine, and NCSoft - the majority of the other companies that dominated subscription gaming for the past decade or so - all have more than one.  
All those companies use F2P now. Thanks for proving my point!
They use F2P because the sub models didnt work out for them. 
SOE's games had been running for over a decade on P2P.

They changed to F2P because it makes more money, that's why.

Same with NCSoft.




Again with the ignoring freely available information.

F2P can make more money. In several cases, it made more money than "not enough money to continue running a game".

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18368

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/04/13 11:18:17 AM#160
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The mere fact you need to pay an upfront cost by buying the game in P2P means people are more willing to build a community.

Does paying an entry fee at a club/party/concert make you more willing to interact with others than if you had gotten in for free?

That seems like a real leap of logic. Is this another "keep the riff-raff out" thing?

Actually, sometimes it does.  Let's look at the analogy of a the golf country club.  If you play golf at a public course, no matter how often you will never build the same bonds with the other players as people who join a private country club.

Of course, they are joining partly to keep out the "riff-raff", which of course doesn't actually work any better than it does in MMO's, but they definitely develop more social bonds based on their commonly shared "membership" than the public golf course player does.

Is it the fee that generates this sense of belonging? No, it's part of being something special, a member, and I do believe people who pay a sub fee are more vested in playing a single MMORPG for longer periods of times than those who are more tourists to the game.

That might be true if free games didn't have guilds, but most people looking for the social aspect of an mmo look for it in the same small groups of " exclusive" memberships guilds offer in both types of games.

Free to play for sure has more people come and go but people quitting are a part of every mmo. You make friends with the people who stay regardless of the payment type.


Great point, DamonVile.

Kyleran, when paying for the exclusive country club over the free golf course, the 'special' is in the priority and extras that come with membership, not just in having paid the fee. Subscription MMOs don't offer such things over the F2P MMOs. If anything, such a situation only exists within the F2P MMOs that also offer subs or VIP options.

I quite agree, and in fact, I favor subscription members having clearly discernible benefits over non subscribers, or even those who partake of the cash shop regularly. 

Provide strong incentives to be a member and people will consider paying the toll, thereby generating a more predictable revenue stream over the longer haul.

 

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

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