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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Reticule VS Tab target - your thoughts?

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102 posts found
  Grailer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 819

6/02/13 3:57:56 PM#41
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by Mkilbride

I like typing in a MMO better than voice chat. Everyone yells over it or can do dumb stuff. Chatting builds a community. It's not like everyone you meet the the game, can instantly join your Vent, TS, Raidcall channel, ect.

 

I think typing is a lot more social than voice chat.(Bought to get some heat for this one.)

 

Only in the MMO genre would a person think typing is more social than actually talking. Speaking by itself is more social than reading and writing. You can gather a lot of information about a person from hearing how they speak. For example, studies have shown that just from hearing a persons voice, the listener can deduce things like social class, various personality traits, emotional and mental state, etc. 

A study by Dr Robert Krauss concluded that a listener could estimate factors such as weight, age, and height with the same degree of accuracy as those who saw a picture of the speaker. 

It's really no huge mystery why the stereotype of the MMO gamer i.e. anti-social shut-in nerd exists. 

while its a bit off topic ,  I did find pre voice chat to be a more immersive RPG experiance .

Where as when voice chat was introduced around the time I was playing SWG it quickly ruined any fantasy as soon as someone opened their mouth and spoke .

 

  mikuniman

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/06
Posts: 277

6/02/13 4:00:10 PM#42
Originally posted by Grailer

Tab Targeting or  using mouse pointer to click on target  when I release right mouse button .

 

Having played a healer I found never winter was pure garbage ,  If the player was surrounded in mobs or moved around a lot it was just not working well .  

 

However there is no reason they could not incorporate both into a game right ? 

In Tera you just mouse over and it locks on friendlies only which alleviates that. Never liked healing classes until I played Tera made healing more action oriented and immersive. Sure beats staring at health and action bars. On the other hand hunter classes are handy and fun with tabtard combat.

  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 739

6/02/13 4:02:08 PM#43
Originally posted by TheMaahes

This action combat style is just the new thing and people embrace it because it is fresh. However, for me personally it becomes very tedious and I wind up wondering at the end if I just played a FPS or MMORPG. I play MMORPGs for MMORPG features, not FPS ones. If I need to shoot something I load up Planetside 2 or play Battlefield 3 with my friends.

The best way to describe my feelings for action-combat is AngryJoe's feelings on the last Harry Potter video games. Companies wanted to create something new but instead forcefully merged one genre with another, marketed it as more skill based, and people ate it up. In the end neither have more skill than the other, but both parties would like to believe they do.

Maybe we should throw a reticule in as a cursor in RTSs to make it more skill based too! :D

It isn't a new thing maybe you don't know what PSU or PSO are ? Or didn't read my post ? Either way I agree that neither is better or more skilled. Yes I am as old as the hills.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  simsalabim77

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 613

6/02/13 6:30:25 PM#44
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by Mkilbride

I like typing in a MMO better than voice chat. Everyone yells over it or can do dumb stuff. Chatting builds a community. It's not like everyone you meet the the game, can instantly join your Vent, TS, Raidcall channel, ect.

 

I think typing is a lot more social than voice chat.(Bought to get some heat for this one.)

 

Only in the MMO genre would a person think typing is more social than actually talking. Speaking by itself is more social than reading and writing. You can gather a lot of information about a person from hearing how they speak. For example, studies have shown that just from hearing a persons voice, the listener can deduce things like social class, various personality traits, emotional and mental state, etc. 

A study by Dr Robert Krauss concluded that a listener could estimate factors such as weight, age, and height with the same degree of accuracy as those who saw a picture of the speaker. 

It's really no huge mystery why the stereotype of the MMO gamer i.e. anti-social shut-in nerd exists. 

One on one, voice is easily more social.  but in an mmo setting he is 100% right, typing is definitely more social.  Comparing a setting with hundreds of people across various channels with one-to-one or small group communication is moronic.

Think a little bit more intelligently before bashing an opinion next time.

 

I don't know about the communities you've been a part of, but when I had the time and desire to be a part of a multi-game community, it was extremely rare to have less than 20 people in chat. Very often, it would be 50+ in different channels, and yes, 20-50 people on voice chat is way more social than 100s of people in chat channels talking about the meme of the day. 

  Eir_S

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4700

GW2 socialist.

6/02/13 6:34:18 PM#45
I prefer a hybrid aiming system like GW2, and I mostly enjoy reticules in FPS's.  I don't think they should be in every MMO of the future.  TERA got boring real fast, but that doesn't mean there's not potential.
  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1625

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

6/02/13 7:21:29 PM#46
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Tab target, if you want any social aspect to the game.

If you're twitching, you ain't typing, and if you ain't typing, you ain't talking.

You heard of voice chat? Try it out.

Yeah, I have experienced voice chat, but NEVER as a roleplaying tool, only (in dungeons) as a coach calling the plays.  Basically, a verbalization of the mechanics.

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1625

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

6/02/13 7:23:15 PM#47
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Tab target, if you want any social aspect to the game.

If you're twitching, you ain't typing, and if you ain't typing, you ain't talking.

 

There's this wonderful thing called voice chat. You know, actually talking to another human being with your voice. 

Yeah, and in a dungeon, what you experience is "Player A, your job is to do this, Player B, your job is to do that, Player C, your job is...."  Basically, it's used for calling tactics; calling the shots.

Twitch play is for teens and tweens and not really good for roleplay.  Leave it to the coop shooters where it belongs (and voice chat with it).

  simsalabim77

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 613

6/02/13 7:37:33 PM#48
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Tab target, if you want any social aspect to the game.

If you're twitching, you ain't typing, and if you ain't typing, you ain't talking.

 

There's this wonderful thing called voice chat. You know, actually talking to another human being with your voice. 

Yeah, and in a dungeon, what you experience is "Player A, your job is to do this, Player B, your job is to do that, Player C, your job is...."  Basically, it's used for calling tactics; calling the shots.

Twitch play is for teens and tweens and not really good for roleplay.  Leave it to the coop shooters where it belongs (and voice chat with it).

After reading the caption under your avatar, I'm not going to even bother explaining why you're wrong, but you are. 

  reeereee

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 706

6/02/13 7:53:15 PM#49

What are you people even talking about with typing?  If you're typing while fighting in a tab target game you're either doing well under optimal dps/tps or the global cooldown is ridiculously long.

 

I find action combat game changing for PvP.  In games like WoW or Aion winning and losing revolves around the proper use of cooldowns, because among other things there is no dodging in non-action land and defensive cooldowns are used to simulate that.  I find it incredibly freeing to have character positioning rather than who pressed a cooldown button when determine the outcome of PvP.  I really can't imagine ever going back to a tab target game unless the content was mindblowing, and even then maybe not.

  Battlerock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 731

6/02/13 7:55:26 PM#50

They are both fun.

 

I used to be a tab target only guy, but neverwinter has changed my mind. I believe the action combat can be fun now and Neverwinter does it better than other reticle action combat games.

  tank017

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/06
Posts: 2206

6/02/13 7:57:33 PM#51

The Secret World has both options.They both come in handy imo.Reticule helps mix things up a bit and keeps things fresh.For my play style it also lets me pick a target faster.

 

I think MMO's would benefit by following Funcom's lead by incorporating both options.That way people can choose whatever style they want.

 

 

a win win

  kiraveli

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 62

6/02/13 8:03:43 PM#52
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Tab target, if you want any social aspect to the game.

If you're twitching, you ain't typing, and if you ain't typing, you ain't talking.

 

There's this wonderful thing called voice chat. You know, actually talking to another human being with your voice. 

Yeah, and in a dungeon, what you experience is "Player A, your job is to do this, Player B, your job is to do that, Player C, your job is...."  Basically, it's used for calling tactics; calling the shots.

Twitch play is for teens and tweens and not really good for roleplay.  Leave it to the coop shooters where it belongs (and voice chat with it).

After reading the caption under your avatar, I'm not going to even bother explaining why you're wrong, but you are. 

 

Ahh...because only YOU can be right? People are entitled to their opinions, even you.

 

If a game had voice chat I wouldn't use it anyway since most of the time people just harass each other. I found in GW2 no one cared to talk to anyone or group with anyone. Too busy spamming circles to care other people exist. DPS zerg it down! 

GW2 to me felt like the game was unsure if it was action or tabtarget. I used a mod to lock my mouse but it felt a bit clunky, but still far smoother than otherwise. I did enjoy Tera though, and had no issues talking to people when I did group stuff. I guess it depends how action combat oriented the game is, such as to the point where you don't have time to ever type. 

 

As for which is better, reticule to me is just moving your mouse to target the person, I dunno. When you think about it all you're doing is more work to just autoattack with all this hold down button to attack. I'd rather spare my mouse the torture and have an autoattack or something. The games usually don't feel full actiony.

 

I really miss community in games, though =(

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

6/02/13 9:30:26 PM#53
ESO will have aimed combat. Personally I don't care, tab hurts the wrist a little less though lol. If an MMO has a lot of PvP I like aimed for the added difficulty.

As the title I'm most looking forward to I wonder what EQN will have. For now ESO is really intriguing because if it's aimed combat and faction PvP, among other things.
  Airwren

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/08
Posts: 654

6/02/13 9:40:26 PM#54
Originally posted by Scalpless

As a fan of various real action games, I've always found MMO "action" a bit ridiculous. People say TERA requires skill because of its reticule-based combat, but how much skill do you need to hit a slow-moving monster that covers half of your screen? Quake 3 requires skill. CS requires skill. TERA's aiming? Please. It's so easy you might as well switch to tab targeting. Besides, many action games, including series like Devil May Cry, let you lock on an enemy, which is exactly what tab targeting does. Is anyone here going to claim DMC is less of an action game than TERA?

I still haven't seen an open-world MMO with what I'd call action combat. Out of instanced games, Vindictus and C9 come pretty close, but unfortunately they aren't great otherwise.

Lmao, you pretty much typed the response I had in my head for this.  In the end I don't prefer one or the other because most of them are easy.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4590

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/02/13 9:44:59 PM#55

with the exception of Eve Online, 'targetting' is not an action that the character does. it's an action that the player does. as such it is not relevant to the gameplay how its done.

 

I find mouse-targetting the easiest and most precise so that's what I prefer.

 

see the game through the eyes of your character for a second, and you'll realise there is no targetting as far as he is concerned.

 

 

  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

6/02/13 10:06:56 PM#56

In a game that's trying to balance fun and challenge for a large amount of people, along with technical capability, I find soft locking to be functionally a pretty comfortable concept.

So I'd lean towards reticule style combat, while noting that it's not a shooter style mechanic that is driving how the reticule works. This is more or less how some of the action MMOs out already work, though it sees varying degrees of tolerance and success based on how responsive and how 'tight' it feels. 

 

An example of it somewhat done 'wrong' might be referenced in Tabula Rasa, where the game presented itself much in th same way as a reticule based combat system, but you could still tab to enemies that were more or less parallel to you and shoot them.

It caused quite a bit of a response form players feeling the game was a poor system for a game where most people were using guns. I enjoyed it myself, but I did feel that it was a bit 'loose' as far as targeting a foe went.

 

People have already commented on the matter of challenge, so I'll just note the feel. The thing I like about reticule style combat, even in soft locks, is that it makes the play feel closer to to the character. When I simply tab and watch my character go, there's a much more obvious disconnect for me.

If we can bridge that gap with a system that can give me an experience that is ever so much closer to a one to one translation of my actions into the game, then I am happier. Reticule combat helps me get a bit closer to that feeling, and for that I prefer it.

This might not be a universal notion, but that's my opinion at any rate.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3080

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/02/13 10:07:10 PM#57


Originally posted by Zooce
How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire?  Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.

Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?

For me, tab targeting hands down. Like others, I get overly tired in action combat games. I do like the dodge mechanic, though. Tab Targeting handles this as a dice roll (Random Number Generator) if there is a dodge skill, which is fine for me.

Neither Tab Targeting nor Reticule handle misses, though. How far does that arrow or bullet go after missing the target to the left? Does it hit another monster in another close area? No. It misses and disappears, falling harmlessly to the ground "somewhere." Would reticule targeting be as fun then? Having mobs adding onto a fight when a player misses would cause all kinds of grief.

The biggest reason I prefer tab targeting is that my character, not me, is doing the combat. My mouse control is not good. Hopefully, my character is much better at aiming than I am :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4590

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/02/13 10:15:13 PM#58
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Zooce
How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire?  Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.


Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?

 

Eve.

 

it doesn't have any sense of 'friendly'. if you target a ship and hit the 'remote armor repair' module it will 'heal' it. friendly ? hostile ? neutral ? npc ? the module doesn't know the difference. it does as it's told. Same with guns. you tell it to shoot it shoots.

 

in fact a frindly dreadnaught got doomsdayed yesterday in Dreklein. :)

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

6/02/13 10:23:01 PM#59

Reticule combat far exceeds tab target in every way shape and form. It takes way more skill. Tab target all you have to do is manage your action bar. Reticule you have to manage your action bar, your position constantly and your aim. 

"Oops I tabbed the wrong target" if that happens in any tab target game you are rollin with some seriously bad players. Especially with assist target commands and target of target etc. 

Where as in an MMO like TERA. Just the mob moving slightly can cause hell on your party. Attacks don't follow the target like they would in a tab Target if the mob moves a bit. In a game like TERA you have to make sure that Fireblast or Thunderstrike hits only the targets you want it to via positioning and aiming. Or your CC lands and the mob/player doesn't dodge it before it goes off. Not tab and auto hit with every CC/dmging move. 

You think rotation and dps can be difficult in tab target on bosses... Yeah keep your deeps up on a moving target that your abilities dont track for you. Constantly dodging mob attacks that can one shot you at any moment. Yea... 

 

TERA has FF to a degree as well. If you are trying to help someone outlawed or a friend that isnt in your party etc can get ugly if you aren't careful. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  AtmaDarkwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/04
Posts: 364

6/02/13 10:29:19 PM#60

If the game is TACTICAL, then yes, sure tab mashing, f-key slappin might be the way to go, esp when as time goes by(and u get deeper into end game) the WRONG action can turn the tide in your opponents favor. Eve is an example of this. Eve WORKS as a tab masher(Cuz anyone who has played even knows that mindlessly mashing the tab key and slapping uour guns on is just plain stupid)

 

But if the game is ACTION, tab mashing, drooling retard facerolling accross the keyboard DOES NOT mean your 'more skilfull' because you have '+10 sword of superdoom' and 'more skills to mash at once' or 'can write better macro's' or 'has right character skill generator to plan out the perfect toon'

 

no none of that is SKILL. Yes it takes some thought to plan out what to get in what slots, but in most cases, just having 'derp derp da bigger numbars' means you win. Simple as that.

 

With twitch based games where your LIMITED in your selection of skills, where gear means less, yet STILL means something (As in you have to choose WHAT to slot into which gear space to best fit your abilities), the ability to not only react and 'dodge' when needed, but the ability to also JUDGE when its best to dodge or not.

 

Old folks who take 15 seconds to react to that dragon rearing up to breath fire, should stick with single player old style turn based 'the dragon rears up and begins to breath fire, what will you do?' -- give you plenty of time to scratch your bed-sore ridden arse from sitting in that chair the last 22 hours, or peel yourself out of said chair to head to the cupboard to get yourself your cheezo's and mountain dew, or type out a 3 paragraph instruction manual to your buddies all raging at you for taking forever to finish your turn... (LOL yea I had fun with this last paragraph)

 

 

I am nearing 40. I ain't no teeniebopper, I am not a counterstrike kiddie, I value thought, tactics, intelligence, and planning, but when I PLAY a game, I WANT the game to get my blood rolling, i want to test my limits at hand-eye coordination, reaction times, etc(at least somewhat, I don't want to be over-tested lol) - Point is, all tab target, skill-key mashing games I have played, or know of, are SKILLLESS, as in it takes ZERO SKILL, both in tacitcs, planning, reaction times, thought, etc, to play. What makes them worse is the (Seemingly global problem of all games) *GET QUEST HERE* icons or autoroute functions, etc, which just dumb games down so much. -- With games like wow, u can 'bypass' any need of any 'skill' with better gear, skill planners, macro's, etc. The amount of mental thought needed to play is near zero. The amount of hand eue coordination is even less. It all comes down to 'DERP DERP MOB DERP DERP FACEROLL KEYBOARD DERP DERP HJEEEEEAAAL DERP DERP' (Hell, most times u don't even have to worry about facing the mob)

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