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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMORPGs Are Dead -- How to Resurrect the Genre

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146 posts found
  User Deleted
6/02/13 5:01:02 AM#41
Originally posted by simsalabim77

Whiners on forums are and always will be the vocal minority. The genre continues to grow every year in terms of profit and playerbase. Do you really think there's millions of people that collectively pay billions of dollars who, in reality, think the genre sucks and is dying? No. The minority spouts the same rhetoric year after year, and year after year the genre continues to expand. 

As of 2012, there were an estimated 400 million players globally. The industry was worth 13 billion dollars. The genre is healthy. This website is filled with old timers who love to have their circle jerks about how terrible the genre is and how it's dying a slow death, but the opposite is true. 

I don't know what the majority wants, but it seems to me that they're spending a metric shitton of money, so presumably they enjoy and want more of whatever it is they're spending money on. 

I'll show myself out and let you guys continue to tell everyone about the sky that has been falling since 2004. 

So first off, any critic of the status quo is a "whiner."

Second, quantity = quality. Therefore, the best selling novels are the best books being written today; and the restaurants that gross the most everyday make the best food, by your logic. If the masses demand Mountain Dew and Doritos by the metric shitton, then they represent the pinnacle of American cuisine as it continues to expand.

But people who think as you do miss the point that for any human endeavor to develop and improve, there needs to be considered thought and discussion. People will disagree, but to call those who disagree with you "whiners" just sounds like argument ad hominem. To just throw up numbers to support your points on matters of art -- which game design  can be -- shows that by your mentality, it's just a business. 

So to the silent majority, which you must represent according to you, mindless  entertainment trumps thoughtful art. What is fun for the masses rules. If a minority raises a contrary opinion about what the genre should be, you suggest just stfu and gtfo, right? 

I don't think that mentality is really beneficial to the long-term health of the genre, or of any human pursuit, to be honest. I think the next developer that comes out with the next great revolution in mmorpgs won't be thinking at all as the big "AAA" developers have been.

EDIT: I wouldn't say the genre is "dead." But I think I understand what the OP was saying. Probably he feels that it has been overly commercialized and that has taken precedence over creativity. The current games seem to take advantage of obsessive-compulsive tendencies (grinding, chasing achievements) and don't really seek to create worlds or engage the imagination. Instead of making games that people really love, they seek to monetize games by encouraging people to chase that carrot on a stick. 

Don't get me wrong, I still play some mmorpgs. I still have hope. I'm just saying, seems like there is room for some smaller projects that can have real communities just like there's always room for small family run restaurants when McD's just won't satisfy you.

 

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7496

6/02/13 5:10:47 AM#42


Originally posted by PWN_FACE

If a minority raises a contrary opinion about what the genre should be, you suggest just stfu and gtfo, right?

Pretty much.

No one gives a damn about your personal qualifiers how the world should be spinning.

  Jenuviel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 958

Sadness is but a wall between two gardens. -Kahlil Gibran

6/02/13 5:16:55 AM#43

I don't think we're going to see much new and exciting out of the MMO industry until the cost to create and distribute quality games drops to about what it costs to create and distribute an independent film today. While the film industry isn't a perfect analogue, it's similarly driven by huge, formulaic, explode-a-riffic Michael Bay films that put butts in seats. Unlike the game industry, though, the major film studios spend some of their money on art films to gain attention, critical acclaim and credibility during awards season, even if it means taking a loss. There's no comparison to that in the gaming industry, because there's not really a "best picture" equivalent, just a "biggest blockbuster." You don't need to make art to be taken seriously in the game industry, you just need to make money.

 

That means the only real hope for specialized content, for artistic vision, for daring design, is going to have to come from independent designers, similar to the service independent films provide. The major difference is that the cost to make independent films has dropped significantly in recent years, while the quality has shot up. The costs in MMO design may have come down in some areas (engine licensing, middleware licensing, digital distribution, bandwidth costs, storage costs), but not enough, and the disparity in production quality between independents and AAA studios is as large as it ever was, if not larger. That's an issue, and it's one only time (probably a great deal of it) will be able to fix. Of course, all of this assumes PC gaming will even exist 10-15 years from now, which I'm no longer as certain of as I once was.

  Adokas

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 221

6/02/13 5:30:02 AM#44
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by PWN_FACE

If a minority raises a contrary opinion about what the genre should be, you suggest just stfu and gtfo, right?

 

Pretty much.

No one gives a damn about your personal qualifiers how the world should be spinning.

This response is just ridiculous. If you don't care, don't post. This is a forum for discussion, yes? If you don't like it, gtfo. Yeah, right?

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7496

6/02/13 5:40:50 AM#45


Originally posted by Adokas

This is a forum for discussion, yes?


In order to discuss a topic, there must be some substance - that is usually reasoning or some fact. There is no sense in threads like this. It is just silly venting and ranting.

Person A: I want MMOs to be like this..
Person B: I want MMOs to be like that..

Fact is, MMOs are what they are. If you cannot deal with it, yeah, you should gtfo since it does not lead to any discussion.

  Adokas

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 221

6/02/13 5:46:15 AM#46
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Adokas

This is a forum for discussion, yes?

 

In order to discuss a topic, there must be some substance - that is usually reasoning. There is no sense in threads like this. It is just silly venting and ranting.

I agree somewhat, but not fully. :P

This thread, while there's ranting and venting, is still relevant enough. People get their opinions aired, discussed and countered, no matter which way you go. That's always a good thing. Whether people feel the MMO genre is dead or not can never really be decided finally by anyone here, but it's still a decent subject to discuss, because everyone has different views about what's good and bad with the genre, and the why and how, things are as they are. Discussing those views with each other, even if aggressively sometimes, is not useless. It's fun and interesting.

  Kazuhiro

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/03/07
Posts: 438

6/02/13 5:46:24 AM#47
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Adokas

This is a forum for discussion, yes?

 

In order to discuss a topic, there must be some substance - that is usually reasoning. There is no sense in threads like this. It is just silly venting and ranting.

That door swings both ways. Yours adds your personal opinion just as much as his. And by your reasoning, your thoughts on the matter are also silly ranting, and equally devoid of anyone giving a damn.

Anyway, onto the topic at hand, I can also agree mmos as they were meant to be are now virtually dead. (A few still cling to life. but no new ones are being made regularly.)

Ravenhill99: "All of the games out now and even the ones coming are either lobby console casual crap or Asian anime throw-up."

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7496

6/02/13 5:54:00 AM#48


Originally posted by Adokas

People get their opinions aired, discussed and countered, no matter which way you go.

False.

Opinions are not a subject of any discussion(as pointed above), the reasoning backing them up is. Threads like this are lacking that substance.

  Shaigh

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 356

6/02/13 5:54:38 AM#49
Originally posted by Adokas

The genre is hardly dead. It seems alive and well. If that's a good thing, in it's current state, well that's subjective as hell, as everyone has their own take on that.

I don't care if it's a new type of themepark, a new sandbox or a hybrid, whatever really. Just release a high quality game with depth and longevity for once, and I'm sure it could truck on happily as a P2P game.

I'm sick of games that are essentially World of Warcraft in a different skin.

I very much agree that this genre needs more high quality games with depth and longevity, something that is sadly missing.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5421

6/02/13 5:55:57 AM#50
Originally posted by Robokapp

so I'll focus on what you left out from the title..."how to rez the genre".

1) target audience must be identified. casual-oriented, little-bit-for-everyone is not an acceptable answer.

2) character / player purpose must be identified. 'explore/quest/slay/pvp' only goes until you've done the quests, explored the map, done the pvp an slain the monsters. Long-term goals must exist. A meta-game.

3) Commitment and stability. lifetime subs today, cash shops, f2p in 6 months, every new update in the shop, rebalancing the shop every patch is not 'it'.

4) strongly incentisize community development by many activities that require REPEATED group interaction.

 

A very good summery of what needs to be done to make a great MMO. If I could add ensuring that activities in the MMO are balanced and have meaning, whether it be PvP or crafting, housing or raids.

 

"Just because there's bacteria on a corpse, doesn't mean the mans alive."

This rang a chord with me too. Especially as I think the F2P MMO genre is now living of P2P MMO's, consuming them several months after they launch. We have had only one P2P/B2P release this year, at the end of this month half of 2013 will have gone.

If P2P and B2P are dying out what will the bacteria live of then?

  Adokas

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 221

6/02/13 5:56:52 AM#51
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Adokas

People get their opinions aired, discussed and countered, no matter which way you go.

 

False.

Opinions are not a subject of any discussion(as pointed above), the reasoning backing them up is. Threads like this are lacking that substance.

All right, fair enough. You have your opinion. I have no interest in discussing what a discussion is and isn't. I feel this thread is relevant, because I feel opinions can be discussed amongst a community. You don't. And that's fair enough :)

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7496

6/02/13 5:57:50 AM#52


Originally posted by Shaigh

I very much agree that I WANT more games with depth and longevity I PREFER, something that I AM sadly missing.


Fixed for you.

  Agent_Joseph

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 971

6/02/13 5:59:16 AM#53
mmo  is most profitable  genre  in gaming ! , it is not dead !

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7496

6/02/13 6:06:27 AM#54


Originally posted by Adokas

I feel this thread is relevant, because I feel opinions can be discussed amongst a community.

And that is the point, your feelings does not make things relevant nor true or real.

  Arskaaa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 706

Your chararacter gains experience and levels up, defining a role playing game.

6/02/13 6:08:19 AM#55

Only way to res WoW is give players tools to make own realm/world. to edit every think in game, build new towns,loots etc etc...

 

oh and mmo are not dead. Devs should give more freedom to players make own adventures. most  mmo are too linear.

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

6/02/13 6:09:00 AM#56

It is that time of the week again i guess...

*MMORPG's are dead and i am the only expert who knows how to bring it back*

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Adokas

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 221

6/02/13 6:13:50 AM#57
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Adokas

I feel this thread is relevant, because I feel opinions can be discussed amongst a community.

 

And that is the point, your feelings does not make things relevant nor true or real.

Yes they do, for me. They're true and real for me. Just like an opposite opinion is true and real for someone else. That's opinion. Those opinions can be discussed. It's sharing your views with each other.

I'm not trying to push my views on anyone here. Merely sharing my views. Whether people agree or disagree - their choice.

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1174

6/02/13 6:17:21 AM#58
Originally posted by ColumbiaTrue

The quest. The journey. The world. The community. The essential ingredients combined to create an enriching, complex, and satisfying---indeed memorable---MMORPG experience. Today's games fall sort of creating lasting, lifelong memories. Instead, they are designed to provide temporary, fleeting contentment. 

 

An MMORPG should not just be about the game itself. An MMORPG is more than gaming. It is about building genuine, authentic relationships in an environment conducive to building bonds of friendship. 

 

An MMORPG world has to feel rich, diverse, and dynamic. Most MMORPG worlds are so static and stale that I cannot bear to play them --- even for free.

 

The journey. An individual, unique, and customized character. Different from but similar to others. A part of the world and a part of a community. However, the opportunity to define one's own destiny, choose a path (create a path).

 

 

Main reasons the genre is dead: Boring on rails quest hub to quest hub gameplay, Mmorpg's being way to soloable they need to be forced to be made more group oriented. Game also has to offer stuff to do, most mmorpgs lately its just boringly rind to level cap then do more boring dungeons that are at their core completly worthless to do anyway since well, why spend all the time to get the gear when there is not one damn thing to actually use it for? IMO they need to stop seperating pvp and pve, and make raid gear the best gear for both. Or have pve gear get pvp stats when in pvp mode. They also could use some decent crafting. Can also use char classes where you can actually make decisions about your char, do I want this skill or that skill? Insted of just handing the player all the skills where most of them don't even get used in alot of these games. Sadly until wow dies I doubt we'll see any real innovation in the genre, for the most part devs these days just try to clone wow because they think it works.. Even though it really doesn't, if it did all these p2p wow clones wouldn't keep having to go f2p to survive, the fact they need to go f2p to survive is a pretty good indication that the wow-era is coming to an end and people are just getting bored of that style of mmo.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7496

6/02/13 6:19:32 AM#59


Originally posted by Adokas

They're true and real for me.


Self denying statements aren't true....they are called fallacious.

  Adokas

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 221

6/02/13 6:25:14 AM#60
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Adokas

 

They're true and real for me.


 

Self denying statements aren't true....they are called fallacious.

Okay, Mr. Robot. :-)

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