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  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/30/13 12:00:34 PM#21
Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by Gorwe
Maybe this is important?

I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?

Has there ever been an MMO that has truly done this???

Sounds like he's aiming at "skill-based", but drifting into "decisions that actually affect my development".

General answer is: MMOs aren't good at consequences. Players don't deal well with them.

Arguably, the last time it existed in MMOSpace was pre-Respecs.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  nethervoid

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 531

5/30/13 1:55:46 PM#22
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by Gorwe
Maybe this is important?

I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?

Has there ever been an MMO that has truly done this???

Sounds like he's aiming at "skill-based", but drifting into "decisions that actually affect my development".

General answer is: MMOs aren't good at consequences. Players don't deal well with them.

Arguably, the last time it existed in MMOSpace was pre-Respecs.

Some MMOs do this well, but the consequence of action is in picking the wrong player faction or pissing off the wrong player/guild. Because MMOs shouldn't really be about how the AI treats you when you make a decision; but about how players treat you when you make a decision.

If they would just let the players control and be the story this would automatically fix itself. The big problem is players don't really want consequences. I mean look at death penalties now. lol

nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  kakasaki

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/06
Posts: 1262

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

5/30/13 2:02:04 PM#23
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by Gorwe
Maybe this is important?

I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?

Has there ever been an MMO that has truly done this???

Sounds like he's aiming at "skill-based", but drifting into "decisions that actually affect my development".

General answer is: MMOs aren't good at consequences. Players don't deal well with them.

Arguably, the last time it existed in MMOSpace was pre-Respecs.

Correct... that is what I was trying to (ineptly) imply... 

A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

5/30/13 5:13:19 PM#24
Originally posted by Axehilt

Hard to agree with most of these points.

  1. Yes, it'd be nice if questing tech was a little more evolved in RIFT.  WOW is a great example of a lot of story being told within quests (during actual gameplay in the game world) rather than all of it being frontloaded in the quest text.  RIFT has some of that I suppose, but not a ton.
  2. Questing is fine overall.  It's only a problem if it's the only way to advance and reach group content.  Without questing, we'd be stuck back in early MMORPGs' Endless Mob Grind, which was far worse.
  3. Respawning being too fast can be a problem, sure.  But it's certainly a minor one.
  4. In RIFT I didn't really feel "fun at endgame" was a problem because all of the game seemed about as fun.  Maybe if group gameplay was hidden behind a high level gate this would be the case, but it isn't.  You can group early and often while leveling.
Should you try different games/genres?  Absolutely.  If the point of games is entertainment, and you're bored with a game, stop playing it and play something else.  Clearly.

1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.

2) Mob grind .. it depends on if combat is fun. Mob grind is fun in D3, but horrible in EQ because it was slow, and you need a group.

3) Respawning rate can be easily adjusted. The best way is use instances. No respawn until you decide to run a fresh copy.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/30/13 6:41:12 PM#25
Originally posted by nariusseldon

1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.

You're basically saying "Questing isn't fine.   It should instead be questing."  Quest systems are the formalization of the goals of the game. An instanced story involves a goal or several goals, and that's all a formalized system for rewarding the player.  So it is a quest.

It's serving the identical function of quests by framing the overall experience and providing context and purpose to actions.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

5/30/13 6:59:53 PM#26

I'll share a theory.  It's not even an educated one, just a theory.

 

MMO progression over the years.

 

Phase 1.  People who like MMORPGs are the target.  Genre is fresh, they're amazed by the games.  They buy it and love it.

 

Phase 2. People who sort of like MMORPGs are also added.  Genre is a bit stale, but the influx of players is huge.  Minor changes are adapted to help new player comfort level.  In timeframe I'd place this somewhere around WoW Vanilla.

 

Phase 3. People who don't like MMORPGs are added as a target.  Games have to be significantly revamped so these new players will be comfortable in playing.  Genre now draws heavily on influences from SP and console (action) games.  In timeframe I'd place this with games trying to compete with WoW.  Not all of that period would have been phase 3 games, some where still trying the phase 2 formula (a few even phase 1?).

 

By phase 3, the phase 1 people are now solidly in the minority in terms of target demographics.  If a company can pick up 10 new people by pissing off 1, of course they'll do it.

 

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

5/30/13 7:04:17 PM#27
Originally posted by Icewhite
 

Sounds like he's aiming at "skill-based", but drifting into "decisions that actually affect my development".

General answer is: MMOs aren't good at consequences. Players don't deal well with them.

Arguably, the last time it existed in MMOSpace was pre-Respecs.

 

Interesting concept.  I agree.  Never looked at it this way befpre, but respecs are a way of making it impossible to permanently goof up a build.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Stzza

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 31

5/30/13 7:10:02 PM#28
Definately not the only one who feels this way about the genre right now man.   Theres about fifteen guys who I've been gaming with for the last ten years, mostly MMOs, and I don't think a single one of us is playing one right now.  The last one we all tried out was GW2.    I think we spent more time in Terraria than that.

Playing : Archeage, Wildstar

Played : EVE, GW, SB, DF, AoC, WoW, WaR, L1, L2, Rift

Loved: DAoC, EVE, SB, old WoW, L2, GW2

  kedara

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/09
Posts: 52

Just because you can't be nice, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

5/30/13 7:12:56 PM#29

The key to an MMOs success and inevitable "fun factor" is the use of people. People provide a seemingly random set of events that take place around all the other people. You never know who is going to come around the corner carrying what and why they're doing it. The aspect of having other people online can be considered in a similar manner  as having  an overly sophisticated random events generator.

If you are not playing an MMO, your game will soon become overly predictable and boring.

  Halandir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 746

5/30/13 7:30:38 PM#30

The transition from GW -> GW2 was all I needed.

I simply misunderstood the "RPG" part. Apparently RPG in MMORPG's is the specific notion of "charactar building" equals molesting rodents of your choice/checking off checkmarks on a form until you are rewarded with a +2 Cow riding or -3% eggboiling duration stat.

The genre, while intriguing, is simply not for me in its current form.

 

We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1838

 
OP  5/31/13 3:28:11 PM#31
Update:

Today I wanted to test something. First I played TSW(which is anything but your typical MMO) and afterwards I played Rift.

It seems that even in typical MMOs, the ability to get into your class and overall the ability to look the world through your character's eyes seems pretty important. In other words, I half expected it to bore me no matter what I played. I was...wrong. All three of my characters that I Like to play(Chloromancer/Elementalist, Stormcaller/Elementalist and Purifier/Warden), well, I haven't had a single sign of exhaustion(shoulder ache/wandering eye/...). Now was it because I didn't play just a single game or because I played characters that I actually liked, I don't know. I really don't. Tho Rift was actually fun :) <3.

Hmmm...
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/31/13 4:35:05 PM#32
Originally posted by ZombieKen
Originally posted by Icewhite
 

Sounds like he's aiming at "skill-based", but drifting into "decisions that actually affect my development".

General answer is: MMOs aren't good at consequences. Players don't deal well with them.

Arguably, the last time it existed in MMOSpace was pre-Respecs.

Interesting concept.  I agree.  Never looked at it this way befpre, but respecs are a way of making it impossible to permanently goof up a build.

Well, it also provides a brief lesson in how "dumbing down" comes to be.

Respecs were a quality-of-life change; before repecs; you lived with the screwed up build, with the +1 to the (oops dammit) stat forever. Players sucked up a lot of staff time filing tickets to beg for a way to move that "oops" point into its proper stat. Having a oops mistake that cost you 0.02% of your performance, clearly unacceptable.

Got worse with talent trees, really. "Oh not, the patch just screwed my pally, I don't want to play this any more, mage is the new flavor this month". Much wailing, many tickets filed.

Rather ironically, this particular bit of "dumbing down" came about because of the most "hardcore", min-maxing-ist guys around.

Following the respecs, of course, came [change my server, change my race, change my class, change my name, change my faction. etc] in logical and sequential order, because these were services folks were willing to pay money for.  The company, of course, followed the lure of *kaching*, that's only to be expected.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Anslem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 213

5/31/13 6:18:50 PM#33
Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by Gorwe
Maybe this is important?

I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?

Has there ever been an MMO that has truly done this???

Sounds like you need an MMO with a strong RP community. This way you can dive deep into building your character based upon the lore behind his race and what ever other factors suit you. 

In my UO days, so much about the server was community based.  While we didn't necessarily RP, there were servers that did and i know people enjoyed that .  RP or not there was very little grind in that game and most people macro'd there way to 100 skill points.  even if you didn't RP your character earned his reputation by the guilds he allied with, people he PK'd with, etc. I can honestly say we knew almost all of the active pvprs on our server. Love them or hated them, notoriety was there!!

There were player run towns, auctions, etc. That, along with the fact that you could talk with your enemy, made UO so much fun. 

 

 

Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

5/31/13 8:48:21 PM#34
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by nariusseldon

1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.

You're basically saying "Questing isn't fine.   It should instead be questing."  Quest systems are the formalization of the goals of the game. An instanced story involves a goal or several goals, and that's all a formalized system for rewarding the player.  So it is a quest.

It's serving the identical function of quests by framing the overall experience and providing context and purpose to actions.

I am saying the implementation of questing is not fine in many MMOs. The core ideas, of course, is fine. MMOs should learn more about how questing is done in SP games.

  MMORPGRIP

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/13
Posts: 90

6/01/13 11:47:04 PM#35
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Axehilt

Hard to agree with most of these points.

  1. Yes, it'd be nice if questing tech was a little more evolved in RIFT.  WOW is a great example of a lot of story being told within quests (during actual gameplay in the game world) rather than all of it being frontloaded in the quest text.  RIFT has some of that I suppose, but not a ton.
  2. Questing is fine overall.  It's only a problem if it's the only way to advance and reach group content.  Without questing, we'd be stuck back in early MMORPGs' Endless Mob Grind, which was far worse.
  3. Respawning being too fast can be a problem, sure.  But it's certainly a minor one.
  4. In RIFT I didn't really feel "fun at endgame" was a problem because all of the game seemed about as fun.  Maybe if group gameplay was hidden behind a high level gate this would be the case, but it isn't.  You can group early and often while leveling.
Should you try different games/genres?  Absolutely.  If the point of games is entertainment, and you're bored with a game, stop playing it and play something else.  Clearly.

1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.

2) Mob grind .. it depends on if combat is fun. Mob grind is fun in D3, but horrible in EQ because it was slow, and you need a group.

3) Respawning rate can be easily adjusted. The best way is use instances. No respawn until you decide to run a fresh copy.

 

Jesus. Why do you play MMORPG's? Or even come to an MMORPG site? You obviously do not like them. Just stick to your Xbox or PS3.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3296

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/02/13 6:57:12 AM#36


Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by botrytis
Emotions are a wonderful thing but they make you look at things with rose-coloured glasses.

Or (quite often the case) glasses of pitch black.

Of course! Because God forbid that anyone actually liked them "way back when." That just is not possible, is it? Must be that "rose colored (or pitch black) glasses" thingie. Yea, that's it!

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10888

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

6/02/13 8:09:19 AM#37


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by nariusseldon 1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.
You're basically saying "Questing isn't fine.   It should instead be questing."  Quest systems are the formalization of the goals of the game. An instanced story involves a goal or several goals, and that's all a formalized system for rewarding the player.  So it is a quest. It's serving the identical function of quests by framing the overall experience and providing context and purpose to actions.
I am saying the implementation of questing is not fine in many MMOs. The core ideas, of course, is fine. MMOs should learn more about how questing is done in SP games.



This is actually not a bad idea. MMOs have a lot of single player content, so why not make the single player content as good as possible?

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

6/03/13 2:55:30 PM#38
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Axehilt

Hard to agree with most of these points.

  1. Yes, it'd be nice if questing tech was a little more evolved in RIFT.  WOW is a great example of a lot of story being told within quests (during actual gameplay in the game world) rather than all of it being frontloaded in the quest text.  RIFT has some of that I suppose, but not a ton.
  2. Questing is fine overall.  It's only a problem if it's the only way to advance and reach group content.  Without questing, we'd be stuck back in early MMORPGs' Endless Mob Grind, which was far worse.
  3. Respawning being too fast can be a problem, sure.  But it's certainly a minor one.
  4. In RIFT I didn't really feel "fun at endgame" was a problem because all of the game seemed about as fun.  Maybe if group gameplay was hidden behind a high level gate this would be the case, but it isn't.  You can group early and often while leveling.
Should you try different games/genres?  Absolutely.  If the point of games is entertainment, and you're bored with a game, stop playing it and play something else.  Clearly.

1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.

2) Mob grind .. it depends on if combat is fun. Mob grind is fun in D3, but horrible in EQ because it was slow, and you need a group.

3) Respawning rate can be easily adjusted. The best way is use instances. No respawn until you decide to run a fresh copy.

 

Jesus. Why do you play MMORPG's? Or even come to an MMORPG site? You obviously do not like them. Just stick to your Xbox or PS3.

Because some of them are good enough games. Why else? If MMOs are not made into more convenient, and better games, do you think i would be here? If MMOs are all like EQ & UO in the beginning, i won't touch them with a ten foot pole.

Thank you for progress.

And you have something against the PC? There are lots of great SP (and online) games on the PC.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

6/03/13 2:56:33 PM#39
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by nariusseldon 1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.
You're basically saying "Questing isn't fine.   It should instead be questing."  Quest systems are the formalization of the goals of the game. An instanced story involves a goal or several goals, and that's all a formalized system for rewarding the player.  So it is a quest. It's serving the identical function of quests by framing the overall experience and providing context and purpose to actions.
I am saying the implementation of questing is not fine in many MMOs. The core ideas, of course, is fine. MMOs should learn more about how questing is done in SP games.


This is actually not a bad idea. MMOs have a lot of single player content, so why not make the single player content as good as possible?

 

Exactly. It is not like MMOs are not trying to appeal to solo-ers. I see TOR trying to do this, but failed because they don't go far enough like SP games.

  UnleadedRev

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/07/10
Posts: 317

6/03/13 2:57:05 PM#40
Originally posted by Gorwe

Are just pathetic. I simply can't play them for more than a hour. Rift reminded me(although a Great game, no doubt, it still is an MMO) what it is that I hate so much about MMOs.

-Pathetic excuse for a story told from almost inconsequential perspective. What is keeping me here? The things to do at max level? That's laughable! That's like restricting Skyrim's Main story to level 30+ characters. Lol what? I mean the story in Rift, in WoW and in many other MMOs would have been at least 150% better if they didn't tell it through god damn quests! While we are at it...

-Quest hubs and quests overall. I am sick of quest hubs. I just want to go around and stumble upon the quest. Also, the fact that the most quests are "Kill 10 of X" doesn't exactly help. MMO designers sure do need to work on their quest variety. Wait no. Just make them fun and believable, instead of "We will make a potion. I will prepare the ingredients and you go kill 8 of X to bring me the ingredients that I am missing". What's wrong with all the bloodshed???

-Respawning mobs. When the respawn time is too short, I don't feel any impact on the world and that in turn just kills the game for me. Can't you have fewer mobs that are more deadly in turn? And they respawn every...5 minutes let's say? Or even better, use large instances. I never quite figured what is so wrong with instances and phases.

-All the fun at the endgame. This one is so lame that it doesn't deserve a paragraph lol. Can't the whole game be, you know, fun instead of a major time sink(and yes, I do realise that's the whole purpose of games-but they need to be FUN timesinks instead of boring, boring MMO timesinks)? Meh...

I think that I listed enough points. You get what I am talking about.

I swear it, the only MMO-like game that I can play is TSW. But then again, it should've been a singleplayer game. Rift's awesome and I REALLY love some souls, though it kinda does bore you fast with all the quest chains and hub hopping and yeah. Purifier made me realise the sheer width of Warhammer(who says that you can't use Aqshy to Heal and burn away impurities?). Any advice with that would be welcome.

So, what am I to do? Play singleplayers/other genres? Do sth else? And when we're at it, am I really the only one that feels massively disappointment by MMOs?

I feel your pain brother....its frustrating.

I just uninstalled Neverwinter and Dragon Prophet will be uninstalled soon as well.

Fear the Alien, the Psyker, the Heretic, the moronic Steam Moderator.

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