Trending Games | ArcheAge | WildStar | Guild Wars 2 | World of Warcraft

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,782,734 Users Online:0
Games:723  Posts:6,192,215
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How Would You Overhaul Quest?

8 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
142 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/30/13 11:23:21 AM#61
Originally posted by Deivos

Yeah, that skipped the fact that a quest system is just a wrapper for activities.

You only perceive the action of flipping activities to be a penalty because you built a dichotomy that caters to it. Arguments built to task are not arguments of the systems as a whole.

Quests functionally only serve to make the grind shorter by tossing lumps of reward at you. When they are accounted for with the leveling curve in the game, that claim flies out the window as well, because it becomes a balance of reward gained from the activity as well as that gained from the quest.

So no, in reality it does nothing for the grind save to put it in a different package.

The claim time goes unrewarded only works in the context of events not being supported. Players can very easily have the option of earning xp for exploring zones or receiving a reward for hitting forms of travel milestones, thereby replacing what they would have 'lost' in your mind to the lack of a quest driving that action.

 The problem with the example you give is that those older titles didn't have the same activities and rewards, it's not equivalent comparison between content, and an inaccurate argument to make. 

And that was my entire point right there. No matter which way you do it, it's just looking for a way to keep people going.

Ultimately I just have the opinion that pushing the reward system back away from quests and instead into an achievement system coupled with a bit more randomness would end up making players more content, as the treadmill is always running at their pace instead of having to grind mobs at a single spot or constantly jump between quest hubs.

What are you talking about?

Quests are a wrapper for the varied activities, absolutely.  They're a wrapper that works.

It's not that I "perceive" there being a penalty for switching, there actually is a penalty for switching.   If you kill one mob a minute, then in 100 minutes you can either:

  1. Kill 100 mobs.
  2. Kill 80 mobs, because you spent 20 total minutes traveling between 3-4 different mob types.
So switching activities is a significant penalty, and players are rewarded for the most boring choice: repetition.   (Incidentally this is why it wouldn't matter if you gave early MMORPGs more activity variety: because if you can do 1 activity per minute, the same principle applies, and switching is significantly penalized.)
 
Quests don't make the grind shorter due to reward.  The reward's only importance (beyond being a reward, which is fun) is what I just described above: ensuring activity variety isn't penalized.
 
Quest make grind less because they're more varied.  "Grind" is a player saying "I'm bored".  Players are bored fastest in repetitive games.  And as we've been discussing, the primary function of quests is to reduce repetition (by rewarding activity variety.)
 
Basically removing quests fundamentally gimps the gameplay of a game.  You're going to have quests in some form, whether or not they're an interface for serving up big text blocks.   Because without some system for serving the player gameplay variety, they won't end up experiencing gameplay variety, and will quickly bore of the game and describe it as a grind.
  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1215

5/30/13 12:13:32 PM#62
Originally posted by Axehilt

It's not that I "perceive" there being a penalty for switching, there actually is a penalty for switching.   If you kill one mob a minute, then in 100 minutes you can either:

  1. Kill 100 mobs.
  2. Kill 80 mobs, because you spent 20 total minutes traveling between 3-4 different mob types.
So switching activities is a significant penalty, and players are rewarded for the most boring choice: repetition. 

Wow. Is that how you approach games? With the most efficient way of advancing? See, I'd be asking to move on after 50 mobs, get a new bit of scenery, not sticking to the same spot because it's a less efficient way of gaining xp if you spend time moving. What nonsense. If people want to play that way then good for them, but a game is meant to be enjoyed, not be an exercise in precision mechanics.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1322

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

5/30/13 2:34:17 PM#63


Originally posted by maplestone
...So my argument is that in order to improve quests, you have ignore the quests, ignore the story, ignore the lore and simply ask: if there were no exclaimation marks and no question marks, is this something that I would have fun doing for a few hours?


Yes that is the perfect test, IMO.



Originally posted by Deivos
...You only perceive the action of flipping activities to be a penalty because you built a dichotomy that caters to it. Arguments built to task are not arguments of the systems as a whole.

Quests functionally only serve to make the grind shorter by tossing lumps of reward at you. When they are accounted for with the leveling curve in the game, that claim flies out the window as well, because it becomes a balance of reward gained from the activity as well as that gained from the quest.

So no, in reality it does nothing for the grind save to put it in a different package...


Devious, I think I shall refer to you as The Oracle. There is much wisdom in your words.



Originally posted by UsualSuspect
The problem is that MMO's have become far too linear, which, when you're trying to emulate a fantasy world, really doesn't make a lot of sense. Most MMO's have everyone start in the same location, move on from quest hub to quest hub, before eventually reaching end game which is the furthest link in the chain. It's horrible design.

...

If developers started making actual worlds instead of little mini-game activities that lead you along a set path, I think we'd see a lot more interesting quests incorporated. The chances of that while WoW is still king? Probably nil.



Agreed, and well said.



Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Wow. Is that how you approach games? With the most efficient way of advancing? ... a game is meant to be enjoyed, not be an exercise in precision mechanics.


Exactly, and this is why the term "Grind" arose; players today focus on their xp gain, whereas in EQ the xp gain was secondary to enjoying the scenery for many of us.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

5/30/13 3:04:43 PM#64
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

The problem is that MMO's have become far too linear, which, when you're trying to emulate a fantasy world, really doesn't make a lot of sense. Most MMO's have everyone start in the same location, move on from quest hub to quest hub, before eventually reaching end game which is the furthest link in the chain. It's horrible design.

That is a false premise. There is no reason why a MMO needs to emulate a fantasy world. In fact, that is the problem.

If they put everything in instances, and change the instances around the user, it will feel much more alive, because the "world" can change around you in response to the story and what you do.

There is no reason for quest hubs except because you have to use a persistent fantasy world. That is why story instances like those in STO or NWO has much better story quests, than world-based questing.

The best way to overhaul quest is to put everything into instances.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

5/30/13 4:46:03 PM#65
Originally posted by Axehilt

What are you talking about?

Quests are a wrapper for the varied activities, absolutely.  They're a wrapper that works.

It's not that I "perceive" there being a penalty for switching, there actually is a penalty for switching.   If you kill one mob a minute, then in 100 minutes you can either:

  1. Kill 100 mobs.
  2. Kill 80 mobs, because you spent 20 total minutes traveling between 3-4 different mob types.
So switching activities is a significant penalty, and players are rewarded for the most boring choice: repetition.   (Incidentally this is why it wouldn't matter if you gave early MMORPGs more activity variety: because if you can do 1 activity per minute, the same principle applies, and switching is significantly penalized.)
 
Quests don't make the grind shorter due to reward.  The reward's only importance (beyond being a reward, which is fun) is what I just described above: ensuring activity variety isn't penalized.
 
Quest make grind less because they're more varied.  "Grind" is a player saying "I'm bored".  Players are bored fastest in repetitive games.  And as we've been discussing, the primary function of quests is to reduce repetition (by rewarding activity variety.)
 
Basically removing quests fundamentally gimps the gameplay of a game.  You're going to have quests in some form, whether or not they're an interface for serving up big text blocks.   Because without some system for serving the player gameplay variety, they won't end up experiencing gameplay variety, and will quickly bore of the game and describe it as a grind.

Incorrect. You're attributing aspects to quests that do not define them exclusively.

 

I already gave an example in the use of achievements. By replacing the presence of quests to reward such gaps with achievements given at regular intervals, you are able to avoid such shortcomings.

 

Quests do not give you fundamentally more variety, that can't be said clearly enough. They are a single method to absolve an issue with the way some games are seen to operate, and by far not the only ones.

 

I don't even see why you're trying to rant about this as what you said is largely in agreement with my own commentary. Not once have I said to kill quests, I have talked of evolving them.

 

The only divergence is where I have noted that quests are a wrapper for what is ultimately the same set of activities. Perhaps the biggest point we'd be separated in is the notion of fun, where I consider the activity itself should be fun and not only so due to a reward handed after. But that is a separate debate for a different thread.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Zekiah

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2533

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

5/30/13 4:57:31 PM#66

1) Player kills mob x or finds y

2) Mob x drops item z

3) Player returns to town, asks NPCs about said item

4) Random NPC responses:

    a) "I've heard about those, if you get A, B and C, I might be able to create D, E or F."

    b) "NPC U was talking about that the other day, check with them."

    c) Use your imagination, isn't that what designers are supposed to do? Duh.

5) Random rewards:

    a) Alternate quest advancement/chains

    b) Random items within parameters and random stats

    c) Use your imagination, isn't that what designers are supposed to do? Duh.

 

You get the idea. Where is the creativity? Where are the dreams? Where's the excitement and wonder?

The MMO industry had/has so much potential but so much fail. So much fail.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

5/30/13 5:10:37 PM#67
Originally posted by Zekiah

1) Player kills mob x or finds y

2) Mob x drops item z

3) Player returns to town, asks NPCs about said item

4) Random NPC responses:

    a) "I've heard about those, if you get A, B and C, I might be able to create D, E or F."

    b) "NPC U was talking about that the other day, check with them."

    c) Use your imagination, isn't that what designers are supposed to do? Duh.

5) Random rewards:

    a) Alternate quest advancement/chains

    b) Random items within parameters and random stats

    c) Use your imagination, isn't that what designers are supposed to do? Duh.

 

You get the idea. Where is the creativity? Where are the dreams? Where's the excitement and wonder?

The MMO industry had/has so much potential but so much fail. So much fail.

The creativity is in how to dress that up into a story.

Look at Bioshock Infinity .. you go from point A to B, killing stuff .. no difference than the list you make up ... but it is a great game. The difference is that it dress it up with good writing, good animation, and create the right mood..

  Guler

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/05
Posts: 146

5/30/13 5:15:54 PM#68

The biggest change I'd make to quests, is to make quests optional. I don't mean simply not doing the quest, I mean that you need to think if you want to do the quest or not.

 

Maybe killing 10 wolves for their pelts would be a good quest for an industrial character, but for a class that is looking to enter a grove of druids, accepting that quest would be a negative thing. While I realize this type of system lends itself to branching and thus more complex game design, I do feel it'd make quests feel like they'd have a meaningful impact on your characters story as how your character interacts with the world is a direct result of your choices.

 

You might be presented with two quests at one point, kill ten vampires, or bring ten humans to the vampires, one could bring you favor with vampires, the other with the town guards.

  Zekiah

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2533

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

5/30/13 5:17:28 PM#69
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Zekiah

1) Player kills mob x or finds y

2) Mob x drops item z

3) Player returns to town, asks NPCs about said item

4) Random NPC responses:

    a) "I've heard about those, if you get A, B and C, I might be able to create D, E or F."

    b) "NPC U was talking about that the other day, check with them."

    c) Use your imagination, isn't that what designers are supposed to do? Duh.

5) Random rewards:

    a) Alternate quest advancement/chains

    b) Random items within parameters and random stats

    c) Use your imagination, isn't that what designers are supposed to do? Duh.

 

You get the idea. Where is the creativity? Where are the dreams? Where's the excitement and wonder?

The MMO industry had/has so much potential but so much fail. So much fail.

The creativity is in how to dress that up into a story.

Look at Bioshock Infinity .. you go from point A to B, killing stuff .. no difference than the list you make up ... but it is a great game. The difference is that it dress it up with good writing, good animation, and create the right mood..

No, I don't want developers spending ridiculous amounts of time and money on storylines and video cutscenes. Develop solid, immersive content/worlds and players will make their own stories. We all realize after your countless themepark defense posts that you love those type of games, but a lot of us don't. You keep pretending that you have the answers for everyone else and you don't.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1215

5/30/13 5:34:31 PM#70
Originally posted by nariusseldon

That is a false premise. There is no reason why a MMO needs to emulate a fantasy world. In fact, that is the problem.

If they put everything in instances, and change the instances around the user, it will feel much more alive, because the "world" can change around you in response to the story and what you do.

Seriously? It's an RPG, of course you need a fantasy world. Instances are just cheap ways of creating different areas in that fantasy world and, personally, I find them to be a terrible invention. It turns an MMO into little more than a lobby game. And what happens in your instanced world to all the other players if they choose different responses to you? Player 1 kills Dragon, saves town, Player 2 loses against Dragon and town is destroyed. How are those two players now supposed to interact?

What you're proposing works great for a single player game, but for an MMO it really doesn't. But then, most MMO's now seem to be becoming single player games, so what the hell, might as well go the whole route and get rid of the other players too.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/30/13 6:59:37 PM#71
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Wow. Is that how you approach games? With the most efficient way of advancing? See, I'd be asking to move on after 50 mobs, get a new bit of scenery, not sticking to the same spot because it's a less efficient way of gaining xp if you spend time moving. What nonsense. If people want to play that way then good for them, but a game is meant to be enjoyed, not be an exercise in precision mechanics.

The lion's share of game mechanics are about being efficient at whatever it is you're doing.  How can you advance the fastest, deal the most damage, survive the roughest encounters, and earn the best rewards?

Because it's the mastery of those types of patterns which fundamentally drive much of gaming's fun, because our minds are pre-programmed to enjoy learning them (and because they've been designed in turn to be fun to learn,) which is why we play.

The thing is, this isn't a necessary evil.  Questing systems solve it.  Even with travel time, variety is rewarded (even better rewarded than grinding usually.)  Players are going to search for and find the quickest, most effective path to being the strongest character they can make, and if that path involves excessive repetition they're going to quit because their options are (a) excessive repetition or (b) intentionally advancing slow for no good reason other than the fact that the game is designed poorly.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/30/13 7:34:18 PM#72
Originally posted by Deivos

Incorrect. You're attributing aspects to quests that do not define them exclusively. 

I already gave an example in the use of achievements. By replacing the presence of quests to reward such gaps with achievements given at regular intervals, you are able to avoid such shortcomings. 

Quests do not give you fundamentally more variety, that can't be said clearly enough. They are a single method to absolve an issue with the way some games are seen to operate, and by far not the only ones. 

I don't even see why you're trying to rant about this as what you said is largely in agreement with my own commentary. Not once have I said to kill quests, I have talked of evolving them. 

The only divergence is where I have noted that quests are a wrapper for what is ultimately the same set of activities. Perhaps the biggest point we'd be separated in is the notion of fun, where I consider the activity itself should be fun and not only so due to a reward handed after. But that is a separate debate for a different thread.

If achievements provide rewards, they're quests.  They're an interface with a stated goal, and you do that goal and you get a reward.

But sure, if it makes you feel like you've "gotten rid of quests" by creating quests (er, I mean "achievements!" *wink*) then more power to you.

I never said quests were the only method to provide gameplay variety. In fact I pointed out two other ways variety could exist without quests. But they don't fit very well in MMORPGs.

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2423

5/31/13 12:14:21 AM#73
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by DavisFlight
All of that breaks down into "Run to the glowing point on your map, click one button". There's no thought behind it, no actually different mechanics. They're just chores. And they're all the same and always will be the same.
 
When killing mobs in DAoC, I could choose where to go, make my own difficulty, explore where I wanted, fight different mobs with different tactics. Different players would make each experience unique. The grind lasted too long, that's for sure, but the game didn't try to insult your intelligence by pretending you were doing some noble quest for an NPC (that in reality is just a boring chore). It was an honest grind. I'd rather have the freedom to group with other players and go where I want (with the option of taking a break by finding a quest, doing bounty missions, or kill tasks) than by being forced to solo grind chores for a layabout NPC with no change for 70 levels.

You don't really get to address a list of varied activities and claim they involve "no thought" when your side of the fence requires less thought and fewer activities.

Stopped reading there.

 

There was SO MUCH more thought involved in managing a camp in a hostile non instanced area than there is following a glowing quest marker to a level scaled instance where you are designed to win and there is no penalty for failure. And the quests in old MMOs actually had you think.

  mmoski

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/08
Posts: 263

5/31/13 12:45:10 AM#74

My plan is to get away from the typical static/chain questing systems for my game, I also looked at the storybricks system that's going to be used for EQnext  but really that kind of a system will just produce static user made quests(I'm not saying that's not cool, it's cool when in a diverse sandbox environment).

But my approach is to integrate a AI NPC generation system combine with multi dimensional quest trees and chain diversification, available dependent on NPC context, environment, player to NPC communication and player to NPC attributes (yeah you need to talk to my NPC's by typing)(similar to talking to an "semi intelligent"  IRC Bot but with context keyword and sentence definition).

There's so much more to this, such as cross context NPC to NPC root quest to node conformation and extended Quest chain generation etc...  It's not  going to be easy but I think it's worth it.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

5/31/13 3:06:51 AM#75
Originally posted by Axehilt

If achievements provide rewards, they're quests.  They're an interface with a stated goal, and you do that goal and you get a reward.

But sure, if it makes you feel like you've "gotten rid of quests" by creating quests (er, I mean "achievements!" *wink*) then more power to you.

I never said quests were the only method to provide gameplay variety. In fact I pointed out two other ways variety could exist without quests. But they don't fit very well in MMORPGs.

An achievement isn't a quest for the same reason you wouldn't call killing a monster a quest. Slapping a  UI on something doesn't make it a quest, that's only the idea in your head.

Sure, you know killing X amount of mobs will net you a bonus. But there's no dialog, context, etc that dictates the need to do so. It's just something that given time will happen.

Same as if you made the game measure distance traveled to reward the player on intervals.

If you're going to call that questing, then killing mobs endlessly is also questing (given there is a clear means of action to grant reward) and you have zero logical ground to make any argument.

If you wanted to be technical, any activity a person chooses to do would be a quest. Seeing as that's not generally the case in games and we knowingly are referring to quest as a specific setup, flexing the definition to fit your whim is just semantics for a worthless debate.

 

It's nice that you'd give a few suggestions, seeing as that was somewhat the point of the thread. To be arbitrarily rebuking other posts incorrectly is rather unnecessary though.

 

I additionally don't see your point in your last remark as I never argued for or against that, don't start more pointless arguments.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  ragz45

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 482

5/31/13 3:19:54 AM#76

Imagine for a moment, if GW2 had never included any of the renown hearts.  And instead had filled the world with 10x 20x as many randomly spawning events through out it's zones.  With every single one of the event lines having a great backstory and interesting reasons for the events actually happening.  Also imagine that they had enough events in each zone that you would rarely ever see the same event twice in a weeks time period.

 

I understand that this isn't logistically feasible, but that would be one badass MMO.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/31/13 4:34:00 AM#77
Originally posted by Deivos

An achievement isn't a quest for the same reason you wouldn't call killing a monster a quest. Slapping a  UI on something doesn't make it a quest, that's only the idea in your head.

Sure, you know killing X amount of mobs will net you a bonus. But there's no dialog, context, etc that dictates the need to do so. It's just something that given time will happen.

Same as if you made the game measure distance traveled to reward the player on intervals.

If you're going to call that questing, then killing mobs endlessly is also questing (given there is a clear means of action to grant reward) and you have zero logical ground to make any argument.

If you wanted to be technical, any activity a person chooses to do would be a quest. Seeing as that's not generally the case in games and we knowingly are referring to quest as a specific setup, flexing the definition to fit your whim is just semantics for a worthless debate. 

It's nice that you'd give a few suggestions, seeing as that was somewhat the point of the thread. To be arbitrarily rebuking other posts incorrectly is rather unnecessary though. 

I additionally don't see your point in your last remark as I never argued for or against that, don't start more pointless arguments.

A rewarded task list UI by any other name is still questing.

Achievement: Rat Slayer

  • Task: Kill 10 rats
  • Reward: 100 xp
Meanwhile grinding mobs for XP doesn't exist in a rewarded task list UI.  That's why it's not a quest.
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/31/13 4:39:42 AM#78
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Stopped reading there.

 There was SO MUCH more thought involved in managing a camp in a hostile non instanced area than there is following a glowing quest marker to a level scaled instance where you are designed to win and there is no penalty for failure. And the quests in old MMOs actually had you think.

Most of that gameplay also exists while questing.  And when you compare the difference left over, there's only a small amount of extra thought involved in managing a mob area over a longer term compared with a short term, and not enough to make up the additional thought required by quest systems sending you to do all sorts of different things rather than repetitively grind an area of mobs all day.

And the penalty for failure doesn't factor into the thought required.  The thought required (challenge) is driven by how much of a skill-check something is before you die.  Penalty only happens if you die, so has no bearing on the thought required to succeed.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

5/31/13 5:10:09 AM#79

Except it's still a quest as it's still something they chose to commit to. A quest isn't defined as a 'rewarded task list UI', a quest is either the act itself, or a particular form of presentation. You can't encompass all UI elements that might throw something at you into being called a 'quest'.

You are rather literally making up your own definition to stand by and arguing consequently for nothing more than opinion on how you want people to use a word.

 

So again, if all you're gonna do is argue the semantics of a word then you're argument is meaningless.

 

EDIT: Did a bit of poking about for an external definition of quests and achievements as it applies to gaming.

Basically, it's what I already said.

Quests are generally just tasks that grant rewards. There is no need of UI elements or otherwise. What it is is simply one form of packaging for the activities in a game.

And rather literally due to the nature of kill quests, they are just bonus xp stacked on mob grinds as a task rewarding you for completing a set of personal tasks.

 

Achievements differentiate themselves by almost entirely lacking a game driven context. They do indeed operate much like quests, but their division comes with the fact they exist on a more metagaming level and the tasks can be handled differently, as they can be treated as persistent milestones for a player and character.

Examples crop up as challenges in shooters, where the task is designed to be sought over the course of play rather than being the specific purpose of play.

 

So functionally yeah, achievements and quests are very similar if not the same in most regards. But then again so is killing monsters and doing a quest to kill monsters. They are actually their own separate concepts however, and serve differently enough in their way to influence the user experience.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  wordiz

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/12
Posts: 481

5/31/13 5:14:12 AM#80
I would never take the quest out. You just gotta have lots of other options on top of it.

http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/

8 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search