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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » A long time MMO player's lament

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85 posts found
  MMORPGRIP

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/13
Posts: 90

5/27/13 12:19:26 PM#61
Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
 

 

But you guys have become the classic forum warrior who are here to try to point out flaws in disgruntle, dissatisfied or whatever.  But you guys ALSO always have the option to find something else to do with your time than try to show the disillusioned, delusional, disgruntled or whatever you thinks going on the light.

 

That's something I find curious and humorous too. With some of these guys ridiculous post counts...seems most time is spent here rather than in these games so vehemently defended.

Ahhh, just when I thought you were a decent guy.... 

Way to stay classy: Don't like someone arguments, go for the personal attacks....

 

Not an attack...just observation. Most that he speaks of have thousands of posts. Of course though...this is also dependant on the posters time on the site I suppose. But the ones I see most like what VR describes have 3k+ in posts...and always the same 5 or 6 people...you not included.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1026

5/27/13 12:19:49 PM#62
Originally posted by jacktors

I think we have gotten past what the OP was trying to say. I believe his/her point was that the current MMORPG's are taking shortcuts via instancing and fetch quests. They are hand-holding their subscribers as to not scare them away. But what initially grabbed MMORPG lovers in the first place, was the simple immersion factor. I think we can all agree that the newer games have a certain lack of player community, far less than our previous MMORPG's. 

Is it a crime to find like-minds in a MMORPG forum? Maybe that next great game designer will read this forum post and think that these are great points. Obviously, if most of the readers/posters of this topic agree with one another,  well that is something for the game designers to open their eyes to. 

But to say shut up, stop being grumpy, and go play the games already out there, while you over-look the parts you detest, you are not helping the genre. 

It is a game designer's job to find what works for the "majority audience" and fill that need. That is marketing 101.  But if these same game designers have no way of knowing what the majority wants, because most of us are "settling" with what is out there, they will have no way to know how to create that next great MMORPG that knocks our virtual socks off. 

I agree with this. 

It's hard to say how much power developers even have in the matter anymore.  I think its why you have the kickstarter movements.  Not my cup of tea to drop money into something that may never come to be but I can understand the sentiment of it.  

I've stopped settling and giving money.  Its a start and within my power so it's what I do.

  Multibyte

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/13
Posts: 51

5/27/13 1:36:20 PM#63

Fast food vs gourmet food.

Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that  cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.

  stalker989

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 25

5/27/13 1:54:23 PM#64

The first MMO I started with was Lineage (not 2), I stopped after 2 launched. I agree that games aren't made the way they used to be. I have never understood the fascination people had with WoW. I played it for 2 months and thought it was boring. I have played Lineage, EVE, 9Dragson, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, D&D Online, Neverwinter (this game has some serious issues), Defiance (alpha & beta), Conquer Online, Path of Exile, Anarchy Online, Necron and a few others that I am sure that are missing. I have the same problem now, with no game being able to hold my attention for very long. Endless grinding, with gear ending up identical to everyone else's, and nothing left to do. I am not a big fan of PvP, but have come to enjoy some aspects of it.

 As for not liking open world PvP like someone else mentioned, in Lineage, if you were more than 10-15 levels lower, the PKers generally left you alone. What would be the excitement or challenge of killing someone who couldn't put up at least a little fight (says something about that person's mentality). I don't have any answers as to getting this fixed any time soon, with a worthwhile game. Until then, I will just play a little bit of a few games and wander around aimlessly.

  jacktors

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/16/11
Posts: 139

5/27/13 2:37:02 PM#65

@Icewhite:

If I am understanding your posts correctly, you are saying that instead of complaining about the flaws in games, maybe it is better to look at the good things the game has and give a pass to the aspects you do not like. That way, it is better go out and enjoy most of a game, then sit on a forum complaining about something that can never be. Furthermore, just because you don't like some aspects of a game, doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't like it. 

I believe that your logic makes a lot of sense. But that we, as a gaming community, shouldn't take that advice. I also do not agree that game developers do not read these forums.  I believe that most MMORPG developers are lovers of the game genre that they work in . And to ignore their fans opinions is a grave mistake. 

Now, i am not obtuse enough to think that every single complaint or idea thrown out there from these forums can possibly be implemented into one "SUPER MMORPG", but as a fan of MMORPG.com, the same 8 or 10 game mechanics that people ask for are pretty standard in the eyes of most people who post on this forum. I have rarely seen anyone argue against:

1. Less instancing and more open world exploration.

2. Sand-box style housing system that allows the player to build your own plot from the raw materials of the land

3. Sand-box style crafting in the fashion of Housing. But with a +1... chance system.

4. Some sort of open-world PvP system (more of a sore spot for many people) Where every aspect effects your realm. 

5. More epic quest-lines, without the repetitive fetch quests. 

6. Great lore and story lines 

7. Interesting class structure that lets the individual player create their own sub-classes.

8. Frequent content updates.

This is pretty much what the OP stated in the beginning of this post. This is how I feel, and certainly what I see over and over in these forums. Is this realistic? Definitely yes. Game designers can give us all of these things in a good MMORPG, and make a lot of money. I would certainly pay a monthly fee if I could play a game that offers this. 

  Attend4455

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 166

5/27/13 2:53:49 PM#66

 

actually I'm surprised no-one has pointed out to the OP that Eve Online fits all of the points he makes about what sort of game he likes.

*shrug*

 

Edit : he didn't specifically mention avatar play

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/27/13 3:05:08 PM#67
Originally posted by jacktors

@Icewhite:

If I am understanding your posts correctly, you are saying that instead of complaining about the flaws in games, maybe it is better to look at the good things the game has and give a pass to the aspects you do not like. That way, it is better go out and enjoy most of a game, then sit on a forum complaining about something that can never be. Furthermore, just because you don't like some aspects of a game, doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't like it. 

I believe that your logic makes a lot of sense. But that we, as a gaming community, shouldn't take that advice. I also do not agree that game developers do not read these forums.  I believe that most MMORPG developers are lovers of the game genre that they work in . And to ignore their fans opinions is a grave mistake. 

Now, i am not obtuse enough to think that every single complaint or idea thrown out there from these forums can possibly be implemented into one "SUPER MMORPG", but as a fan of MMORPG.com, the same 8 or 10 game mechanics that people ask for are pretty standard in the eyes of most people who post on this forum. I have rarely seen anyone argue against:

1. Less instancing and more open world exploration.

2. Sand-box style housing system that allows the player to build your own plot from the raw materials of the land

3. Sand-box style crafting in the fashion of Housing. But with a +1... chance system.

4. Some sort of open-world PvP system (more of a sore spot for many people) Where every aspect effects your realm. 

5. More epic quest-lines, without the repetitive fetch quests. 

6. Great lore and story lines 

7. Interesting class structure that lets the individual player create their own sub-classes.

8. Frequent content updates.

This is pretty much what the OP stated in the beginning of this post. This is how I feel, and certainly what I see over and over in these forums. Is this realistic? Definitely yes. Game designers can give us all of these things in a good MMORPG, and make a lot of money. I would certainly pay a monthly fee if I could play a game that offers this. 

I would hardly call that impossible, since parts of it have existed (many times? a few, at least). The op asked for more, I think, in that original novel.

But I'm not sure how many titles have combined all of these features into a single title. 7 (for example) is partially possible, but depending how much you expect...gets a little shaky towards the end of the sentence.

The more you ask for, the harder it's going to be to pass. And the major mistake (to my mind) is setting forth my list of 8 or 10 or 12 features I want to see, while rejecting any game that fails to pass each and every one of them. UO certainly didn't pass each of those gates (certainly not originally), nor did EVE, nor SWG. And those are the "classic sandbox" games.

Every gate you add on makes the target shrink, that much harder to hit, that much more likely you'll be disappointed.

That's all. The kid that wants that one Christmas present will be fine. The kid that's expecting Santa to deliver the entire list will be upset. It's not deep or crazy, just really simple, that we lose (almost daily) in the yackyack forum pvp.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19065

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

5/27/13 3:20:22 PM#68
Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

At a certain point if you want change you have to reject the industry.  Gaming in general or even just entertainment in general has become corrupted.   The dream has been snatched from dreamers and pushed into corporate formulated cash cows.

Classic gamer rhetoric, really.

All right, joo win (?)

It's actually truth. You claim it as rhetoric because it goes against what you like and you are apparently happy with the current trend of the MMORPG genre.

"Truth" is a pretty subjective thing when it comes to likes/dislikes. May  be "truth" to you but not to many of us.

I see it as 2 types that are fine with how far off the path the MMORPG genre has gone.

1) Those that came in with the mass media marketing of WoW from other genres and don't really know what made them what they were prior to nor care. Or..

2) Old school gamers that want to try and hold onto MMORPG gaming, but don't have the time, or want to dedicate the time needed to play them as they were meant to be played...so have no issue with them de-evolving into console style games to meet their own needs.

Meant to be played? Pray tell in what manual or holy book of gaming does it state how an MMO is supposed to be played? Ohhh, you mean play it like "YOU" like.... gotcha!  

All you have to do is look at the history of the MMORPG industry and the gigantic influx of companies trying to make their mark simply due to WoW's huge success of mainstreaming the genre. It's nothing but a quick cash grab now more than making a quality product fans can enjoy for years on end. No more passion put into their games.

Again, your opinion as many people are happy with the game they currently play.

This here is a prime example of the jaded vet syndrome: "Everything was better back in the day!" "Today's players don't have the right mind set and don't know how to play games right!!! " 

Sadly, if this is how you feel about the genre, maybe it is time to find a new hobby?

This here is a prime example of the modern gamer ASSUMING and defending the theme park treadmill they like because it's all there is.

Did I say anywhere the old way was better? No. Did I say today's gamer's don't know how to play the games right? No. There was plenty that definitely needed upgrading. But there are also PLENTY of elements that defined them as a unique and separate genre from console gaming that have gone extinct in the name of numbers and greed.

It's possible to have those old elements and new combined and make a decent game.

I love how people such as you say I and others should just find a new hobby too. If tables were turned, I would not be telling you the same...and the reason is because I am not selfish and everyone is entitled to their opinion and tastes....and because I had what I wanted en mass, doesn't mean I should tell others they can't hope for something they enjoy, or tell them to leave.

I am absolutely sure if old school MMORPG gamer's invaded console gaming en mass and whined to have them slowed down, more interaction between players, etc, etc and companies listened because they became the majority....long time console players would be up in arms.

 

Your entire post reads "old time games were better and the ones today suck!" I never told you to find a new hobby. My advice was that if you found today's games so bad, maybe it just means it is time to move on or stick to the old games. just being a realist. Times change and people change. I can't stand today's music so I refuse to buy new albums. I just stick to the oldies.  But you don't see me ranting on forums how today's music sucks and music was better back in the day (it was).

Look mate, I was in the same boat. Hated today's games and longed for the days of Shadowbane and EQ. But, I had two choices: Quit the hobby I love or find some tolerable modern MMO and make the best of it. I wend with the second option and continue to enjoy the hobby I love. Simple as that. It's a choice. That was all I was offering you. But please, do not let me derail you from your bitter rants. Carry on.

 

P.S. If some dev decides to make an updated, modern version of Shadowbane... please e-mail me where I can send you a blank check.

 

Very good points, I decided to retreat back into a retro version of a game I really enjoyed and along with 10 or so old friends we've decided we pretty much will be staying there, with the occasional forays to sample newer titles if it appears they will be offering something different.

 

"Someone once told me, there is always someone more powerful than you." - Nicola [Bunraku]
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/27/13 3:49:13 PM#69
Originally posted by Kyleran

Very good points, I decided to retreat back into a retro version of a game I really enjoyed and along with 10 or so old friends we've decided we pretty much will be staying there, with the occasional forays to sample newer titles if it appears they will be offering something different.

And if you're a social enough animal (as I've always been), the venue matters less than the friends do, anyway.

Enjoy!

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1468

5/27/13 3:57:22 PM#70
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

I don't see what discussing your ideals of what you want from an MMORPG hurting anything or are unrealistic.

Nope, discuss away. No one can stop you from adopting whatever expectations you have.

But honestly, no one can stop me (or anybody) from pointing out that in combination, the sum of individual expectations can be equivalent to rejecting everything. If you reject the whole market, you have no option at all except grumbling, right?

What to do with your leisure time now?

Well, that is the dilemma. Answer is.. playing other games. Do other real life activities. For me, i was anyway a little bit to addicted to online gaming.

But another truth holds true. That i played some MMOs from time to time, or at least tested them.. and not one could really hold my interest for any decent time.

..


Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Scalpless

ArcheAge, I suppose? Hard to say without playing it, but it seems to promise most of the above. All other games I've played lately lack several of the things you mentioned.

If you decide to make the damn thing yourself, I'll sub.

Yep Archeage is the first game since  probably Vanguard to offer everything.It really shows how amazing Vanguard was,it also had that political card game that many found was a nice added touch.

...

 


Well.. ArcheAge could be interesting. At least i will try it. But there are a few things which i dont like that much.

As example they decided (after CB4) to cut out the item decay system, and with it crafting, and the economy as a whole becomes rather useless. Everyone got everything up to one point, not enough demand for a healthy in game economy.

And you can see the results very well in korea, big deflation at the auction house is going on... just not enough drain of items, or resources in general. But nevertheless.. I will give it a try. But i am not that hopefully anymore. (for my online gaming pleasure)

  Torik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2325

5/27/13 4:28:49 PM#71
Originally posted by Multibyte

Fast food vs gourmet food.

Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that  cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.

The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore. 

 

It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares.  You see this quaint  'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19709

5/27/13 4:34:02 PM#72
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Multibyte

Fast food vs gourmet food.

Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that  cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.

The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore. 

 

It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares.  You see this quaint  'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts. 

Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.

 

  Multibyte

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/13
Posts: 51

5/27/13 4:48:06 PM#73
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Multibyte

Fast food vs gourmet food.

Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that  cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.

The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore. 

 

It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares.  You see this quaint  'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts. 

Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.

 

Today's MMOs are more like 99c menus you find at McDonalds and Burger King etc. Eat it in 10 minutes and go watch the game. Gourmet food is all but forgotten. 

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3274

Poacher killer.

5/27/13 4:59:31 PM#74
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Torik

The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore. 

It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares.  You see this quaint  'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts. 

Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.

Then you order the burger and quickly find out that you need to pay for the toppings, the condiments, what's that you say: you wanted a bun as well? Don't worry they're only $3.99. Oh and keep your eyes away from that table of whales over there in the corner so as not to make your appetite jealous from the sight of their stunning orders. Good deal, eh?

Because you do not "pay a dime" all you'd get is a lonely and boring patty, but it would still be "fun", right? Definitely not my kind of restaurant.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  _redruM_

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/04
Posts: 34

 
OP  5/27/13 6:23:47 PM#75
Wow, this thread really took off overnight.
Originally posted by Icewhite

Red, I think that what's happening here is a kind of pass/fail cascade gate error that catches an awful lot of gamers.

Feature list: I want these four things (ABCD). 1000 mmo titles available.

  • Feature A: 90% of available titles "fail", 10% pass.  1000 titles go in, 100 make it out.
  • Feature B: 90% of available titles "fail", 10% pass.100 titles go in, 10 make it out.
  • Feature C: 90% of available titles "fail", 10% pass. 10 titles go in, 1 makes it out.
  • Feature D: 90% of available titles "fail", 10% pass. 1 titles go in....uh oh.

"Why isn't anyone making a game to my exacting specifications omg?"

Yep, you're right, but it isn't anything I'm not aware of. Also, I think I've been fair. I haven't just been "preaching defeatism on a forum", as evidenced by both my post count, and the fact that I have tried a lot of these games. Even knowing ahead of time that a lot of them don't meet all my expectations - indeed, often they meet very few - I have given them an honest effort. I've let plenty through my gates, despite their shortcomings. I made it to the level cap in Vanguard and Rift, made it to about 40ish in Aion and TERA, and am still approaching the level cap in Neverwinter, for a few examples. I feel like I've given an honest effort to enjoy these games, but as I said before, something (multiple somethings, usually) always kills it for me.

In truth, I don't expect a game to meet all of my expectations. It would be great if one did, but I really don't expect it. Problem is, all of these games fall short on several of them, which really hampers my enjoyment. For example, Rift falls short on quest-centric focus, pvp and shallow itemization. If it fixed just one of those three things, I might still be able to get a lot of enjoyment out of it. The way it is now, unfortunately, there just isn't really any content for me to enjoy, nor anything to look forward to.


Personally, I'd suggest option 5: stop over-thinking it and writing TLDR novels. Your disease could also be described as "Forumitis".

I do recognize and appreciate what you're saying. However, I've made several honest attempts at not over-thinking things and just enjoying them. It just didn't work. I finally decided to make this thread, reaching out to the community for like-minded players to make our desires - and willingness to pay for them - known.

Also, you've posted 5547 times over a period of about 2 years. I have now posted 13 times over a period of 9 years. So whos' got the "Forumitis"? ;)

 

Originally posted by jacktors

I think we have gotten past what the OP was trying to say. I believe his/her point was that the current MMORPG's are taking shortcuts via instancing and fetch quests. They are hand-holding their subscribers as to not scare them away. But what initially grabbed MMORPG lovers in the first place, was the simple immersion factor. I think we can all agree that the newer games have a certain lack of player community, far less than our previous MMORPG's. 

Is it a crime to find like-minds in a MMORPG forum? Maybe that next great game designer will read this forum post and think that these are great points. Obviously, if most of the readers/posters of this topic agree with one another,  well that is something for the game designers to open their eyes to. 

But to say shut up, stop being grumpy, and go play the games already out there, while you over-look the parts you detest, you are not helping the genre. 

It is a game designer's job to find what works for the "majority audience" and fill that need. That is marketing 101.  But if these same game designers have no way of knowing what the majority wants, because most of us are "settling" with what is out there, they will have no way to know how to create that next great MMORPG that knocks our virtual socks off.

This, exactly. I really don't see the harm in a thread such as this. Moreover, while it may not reach any developers directly, it is still far from fruitless to know there are other people out there who are looking for the same things. Maybe it will garner enough attention for one of the contributors to this site to write an article with such a theme in mind.

If I decided to just 'move on to something else', I really must not care about the genre much. I'd much rather at least reach out to the community, voice my thoughts and hear those of others. The worst that can happen is it might create a more organized and consolidated list of desires that aren't being met by current MMOs. That's pretty useful market data, if nothing else. As I said, so many recent MMOs are carbon copying so many of the same design decisions, they all end up just sharing slices of the same pie. If anyone actually decided to take a chance and go outside that design box, they might find quite a respectable monetary benefit in doing so.

 

I have to go out for a bit, but I'll reply to more later.

  countdogula

Novice Member

Joined: 5/08/07
Posts: 3

5/27/13 8:47:47 PM#76
You really need to try EVE. It is scifi, but seems to have everything that you are after and is an amazing game.
  _redruM_

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/04
Posts: 34

 
OP  5/28/13 2:36:35 AM#77
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by jacktors

It is a game designer's job to find what works for the "majority audience" and fill that need. That is marketing 101.  But if these same game designers have no way of knowing what the majority wants, because most of us are "settling" with what is out there, they will have no way to know how to create that next great MMORPG that knocks our virtual socks off. 

It's possible that the One True Game won't ever happen, because we want 10 million different 'perfect game' list-of-features?

That's an awful lot of dart board bullseyes to hit.

It is. But I still think it's important to get them out there. If a developer happens to hit even half of those dart boards, it would be an improvement over where we are now.

 

Originally posted by Killsmallchi
I am going to try and make this comment constructive. Can you make a tl;dr section for your tl;dr section? This is a very opposing wall and it only is made worse knowing the tl;dr section is still a wall. 

Fair enough, I'll see what I can do for you.

 

Originally posted by IstrebiteI

I believe there is no such game, OP.

 

GW2 has great customization (just insane really with every weapon having its own skill set etc), but awful crafting economy (because there is one AH for whole game, all the servers, meaning you can never earn anything on your crafts because a gazillion of players all over the world can do the same). It also has no World PVP but reasonably fun huge-scale instanced pvp (its an instance specifically made for PVP but its a size of several normal game zones). GW2 also has that "wanderlust" aspect you're looking for - jumping puzzles, secret nooks and crannies, all that is awesome. Unfortunately, it doesn't have much to do at endgame, because even though you can get downleveled and go to lowlevel zones, mobs there are too easy after you experience level cap mobs. And no WPVP - no danger.
I already went over my concerns with GW2, but despite that I am willing to give it a chance. Unfortunately, I just realized they no longer have a trial. Apparently they only do them periodically. I guess I'll have to wait for the next one, because I'm not going to fork over $50 blindly.

 

 

I don't really know about anything else. I guess you should not be against paying for a game (really, you can try before you buy, and if you like it, would you be unable to pay ~$50?) especially because you're looking for a quality product and quality product should cost money, no?

Absolutely. I have nothing against paying for it, if I like it. Hell, I pre-ordered and kept an active subscription to RIFT to this very day, despite the shortcomings that game had. If I feel the game is of a high quality and it appeals to me, I'll be happy to pay for it.

 

Originally posted by Attend4455

 

actually I'm surprised no-one has pointed out to the OP that Eve Online fits all of the points he makes about what sort of game he likes.

*shrug*

 

Edit : he didn't specifically mention avatar play

Originally posted by countdogula
You really need to try EVE. It is scifi, but seems to have everything that you are after and is an amazing game.

Unfortunately, EVE came out while I was still deep into L2. I've always been apprehensive about trying a game that has been around for years, knowing I'll have a lot of catching up to do, especially being a pretty casual gamer in terms of time available. I also prefer fantasy over sci fi.

Despite that, however, I am downloading the EVE trial as we speak. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for the suggestion.

Also, what is meant by 'avatar play'?

  Jorendo

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 213

5/28/13 4:51:44 AM#78

Great post. I never played L2 so i don't know how it played. WoW was my first MMORPG but if i was bothered by one thing, and pretty much with every MMO ever since is that there is no punishment at all. When you die you at most get a debuff for five minutes. Which can be removed by talking to a healer most of the times or games removed it at all (SWToR) so players don't feel punished. The only punishments is gear damage but you earn so much money these days that even that is a joke.

 

The no punishment sounds good right? Why do you need to lose exp or items? Well to make it more of a fight for life and death perhaps? To make it more exciting knowing that if you lose that battle you really lose something.

 

And i never understood why player killing wasn't really punished in some sort form. I mean gankers got a free pass right now. It gets frustrating too get killed over and over again by the same people who are much higher lvls with much better gear cause like you i don't have 24 hours per day to play the game.  The Karma system sounds great, it allows people to kill others but makes them think twice. In RL there is free PvP as well. Doesn't mean you should go kill every random person you see walking down the street. There are laws in RL why not have that in games? Sure you don't have to go as far as in RL that you end up in jail for the next 20 years in a game. But make sure that those who kill for the thrill can do so but get punished in some sort of way. And the thing that you didn't see the others their lvl would really help too. Cause most gankers only attack those with a much lower lvl so they know they can win...and ironicly then shout you are the noob and should go run crying to your mother...where they have to fight lower lvls in order to win and feel great about themselves cause once you meet them in a fair fight they often are the ones finding themselves biting the dust and call you all the foul words they have learned in their lives and also call you a hacker and cheater cause off course when they lose its cause you been cheating.

 

Anyway great post. I would love to see a game with the ideas L2 had. Not sure if ArchAge is gonna be that game. People seem to be really hyping that game. I haven't done much reading about it as im from Europe and as far as i know they haven't plan a European release yet and the American version is as well still unknown when it will be released.

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1772

5/28/13 7:20:33 AM#79
Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Originally posted by _redruM_  "Hi, folks.................... When we went back, we found a higher level guy burning karma (he had just killed someone else - open world pvp), and instead of killing him and having a chance at his items, we decided to let him join us so we could make it further in........."

 

I'm the anti-PvP.  I don't know if I'll take time to read all OP's post.  I read this far and thought, "Who does this???"  This does not exist.  I started with FFXI and there was no open world pvp.  I thought it would be really great to have the extra challenge of some people chasing you instead of mobs.  I switched to WoW PvP server.  Boy was I wrong.  Real people hunting me down makes me feel like an unloved vampire.  "Torch the building he's in!  Bring the stakes!!!"  No thank you.  But who the f* ever in pvp turns down an easy kill?  You are all a bunch of blood lust shites that never say to yourselves, "Gee I think I'll let the little guy live."

Agree fully with you. I'm also kind of person that will help player of opposite faction when in pve trouble ... not taking opportunity to jump at his troath. I enjoyed however some time battlegrounds and alike ... but would never create anything on some pvp server.

  Jorendo

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 213

5/28/13 7:34:10 AM#80
Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Originally posted by _redruM_  "Hi, folks.................... When we went back, we found a higher level guy burning karma (he had just killed someone else - open world pvp), and instead of killing him and having a chance at his items, we decided to let him join us so we could make it further in........."

 

I'm the anti-PvP.  I don't know if I'll take time to read all OP's post.  I read this far and thought, "Who does this???"  This does not exist.  I started with FFXI and there was no open world pvp.  I thought it would be really great to have the extra challenge of some people chasing you instead of mobs.  I switched to WoW PvP server.  Boy was I wrong.  Real people hunting me down makes me feel like an unloved vampire.  "Torch the building he's in!  Bring the stakes!!!"  No thank you.  But who the f* ever in pvp turns down an easy kill?  You are all a bunch of blood lust shites that never say to yourselves, "Gee I think I'll let the little guy live."

Agree fully with you. I'm also kind of person that will help player of opposite faction when in pve trouble ... not taking opportunity to jump at his troath. I enjoyed however some time battlegrounds and alike ... but would never create anything on some pvp server.

That's why the Karma system sounds like a good thing. Like you and Jemcrystal i don't like being hunted down by every little kid that thinks just because they can kill me they should kill me.  It is anoying to get ganked and these same people are the one to defend it the hardest. Calling our kind of players "carebears"  and such. Where its them who can't even do a fair fight (but they will shout on forums they only fight the same lvled ones cause they don't wanna come over as cowards). A karma system that makes them a target after killing to many people would prevent the massive gankfests. If they wear that bounty thing until they are killed by another player or by killing say hundred mobs it would reduce the amount of ganking already.

 

I played on a pvp server in Age of Conan as during the early access that was the only kind of RP server and by the time the game opened to every one i was already to deeply involved with the community to leave it for a PvE server. I hated how many people had the need to just kill for the kill. In RP it didn't make sense cause they would say "my char is a bastard and a murderer derp so i can gank you"  but if you killed my char once then how can you kill me again? It where just weak excuses. During the intro zone only the white sand islands (or how was it called?) was a pvp zone. What happened ther ewas that people lvled to the max level before you leave the island and just waited at the quest area to gank the questers who where 5 lvls lower with much less skills to defend themselves and worse gear. How was that fair?

 

Open world pvp can be great like in Warhammer Online where you had keeps and places to defend or attack. though i played on a pve server it still had open world pvp zones. Those worked like a charm, i could do pvp in the open world when it suited me. I settle for that or a good punishment system that will reduce the ganking ammount. Even though the gankers will riot now calling me carebear and that i have to F* off as they are clearly the superior uber MMO race out there (who in RL at the age of 40 probably also only beat up kids between the age of 5 to 10 cause they know they can at least win that fight).

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