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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Becoming a F2P Convert

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172 posts found
  duuude007

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 114

5/26/13 12:39:44 PM#121
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining, but time has shown it's not. 

 

Wow. No literally WoW and of course Everquest and a lot of other games for years. Hell Darkfall was self sustaining if only barely. Bad games are not self sustaining under any business model. 

Quoted for truth.

  Plageron

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/28/08
Posts: 110

Good Gravy!!

5/26/13 1:05:43 PM#122

Its funny but most P2P games are kind of going away.  And that's because those companies that are doing them now are doing a terrible job.   Their games are terrible or very short.  And with the amount of competition out there....players can find better games or other things to play.

Some of the P2P companies are so bad at misinformation about how well they are doing....that its an easy thing for them to make web sites that are run by them to show bad numbers...but when you do a public search for fiscal earnings you find the company didn't even make enough even if its players paid 25 cents per month.

 

I don't think the Free to Play models are the greatest and most games that use them are not that great.  But there are games that use the model that do a very good job and are a lot of fun.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7195

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

5/26/13 1:07:55 PM#123
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining, but time has shown it's not. 

Wow. No literally WoW and of course Everquest and a lot of other games for years.

 

Exactly.

 

 

  eddieg50

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/22/05
Posts: 1482

5/26/13 1:08:20 PM#124
the great thing about F2P games are you can spend little or no money or sub if you want, I love it because it gives you that option
  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6669

5/26/13 1:29:29 PM#125
Originally posted by eddieg50
the great thing about F2P games are you can spend little or no money or sub if you want, I love it because it gives you that option

F2P games that have subscriptions are generally not your typical f2p game.  Generally if you like the game, gameplay is much better if you subscribe.  Games like that are generally free to try, pay to play.  You are trying to lump all f2p games into one folder when there are many different varieties.  

 

  thinktank001

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1861

5/26/13 1:59:06 PM#126
Originally posted by Ozmodan

F2P games that have subscriptions are generally not your typical f2p game.  Generally if you like the game, gameplay is much better if you subscribe.  Games like that are generally free to try, pay to play.  You are trying to lump all f2p games into one folder when there are many different varieties.  

 

 

All cash shop games come from the same mold.  The only differences is what you buy in their cash shop.

 

i.e.  Mcdonald's, Arby's, and Subway are all fast food restaurants, but they each sell different products.

  duuude007

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 114

5/26/13 2:31:14 PM#127
double post
  duuude007

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 114

5/26/13 2:32:05 PM#128
Originally posted by duuude007
Originally posted by eddieg50
the great thing about F2P games are you can spend little or no money or sub if you want, I love it because it gives you that option

The great thing about a P2P game is that if they are capable of sustaining P2P with regular updates, it is a strong indicator that the title is successful. The same cannot be not said for an F2P title.

 

 

 

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 794

5/26/13 3:41:52 PM#129
Worst analogy ever?

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

5/26/13 4:24:36 PM#130
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining, but time has shown it's not. 

 

Wow. No literally WoW and of course Everquest and a lot of other games for years. Hell Darkfall was self sustaining if only barely. Bad games are not self sustaining under any business model. 

If everquest released in 2013 it would be different story and same goes for WOW. 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Boneserino

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 794

5/26/13 4:38:52 PM#131
Originally posted by nttajira
Originally posted by Boneserino
Worst analogy ever?

 

you love mcdonalds ? sorry

Sometimes.

But your analogy is the worst! :P

 

p2p are the good looking girl ( who can be a fucking bitch and end up f2p ) or the best girl in the world , where you subs all life , you dont know  , but it worth the try !! 

LOL

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Aldous.Huxley

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/13
Posts: 443

5/26/13 4:40:06 PM#132
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining, but time has shown it's not. 

 

Wow. No literally WoW and of course Everquest and a lot of other games for years. Hell Darkfall was self sustaining if only barely. Bad games are not self sustaining under any business model. 

If everquest released in 2013 it would be different story and same goes for WOW. 

Finally, the distortion of time & space argument. Now we're getting somewhere! I'll try one.

 

If free to play games were released in 1957, not s single one would be played at all. Zero player base & zero money earned.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

5/26/13 4:43:25 PM#133
Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining, but time has shown it's not. 

 

Wow. No literally WoW and of course Everquest and a lot of other games for years. Hell Darkfall was self sustaining if only barely. Bad games are not self sustaining under any business model. 

If everquest released in 2013 it would be different story and same goes for WOW. 

Finally, the distortion of time & space argument. Now we're getting somewhere! I'll try one.

 

If free to play games were released in 1957, not s single one would be played at all. Zero player base & zero money earned.

Ignore it all you like but the time period makes a big difference. Gamers have changed over the years. What was relevant during times of Everquest isn't relevant anymore. And this goes not only for MMOS but ever changing trend in all other sources for entertainment as well.

After the news of Arch Age going F2P i know for sure now that 'people pay for quality' MMO is nothing more than some pipe dream in 2013.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5790

5/26/13 4:47:15 PM#134
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Pie_Rat

If FP2 were such an awesome model, people wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to convince the world of its merits.

I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining.

The debate here isn't actually between whether or not the sub model is self sustaining, because it has actually been proven that it is. Games have run for literally years on it alone.

The core issue here is not what generates profit, it is what generates *more* profit.

'F2P' simply generates more, especially when it is carried by a sub user base. As a gamer though, I care about games, not increased profit that benefits none but the VCs and the shareholders.

Except the model itself is not self-sustaining. 

Strong statement. Prove it?

I have the fact that plenty of games operated for literally years on a sub alone, generating profit and supporting ongoing development, to back me up.

Honestly, I sometimes wonder how you guys think EQ etc survived all that time before the addition revenue generator of the cash shop was forced over time in to up the profits... going by your thinking EQ should have been dead in a year.

The very status quo proves it.  What recently released AAA game has been able to do P2P?  How many coming down the pipeline will be able to pull it off? I explained in the previous posts that niche games will be able to succeed on a form of sub-lock, but not AAA games.  Again, EVE can do this and thrive because no one else delivers exactly what they do.

I don't think ESO will be able to.  I'm going to watch FFXIV closely.  There are a lot of FF fans and could be enough to support that, but other huge IPs like Star Wars, Conan, and Lord of the Rings haven't been able to do so.  Why would FFXIV be able to do this?  Some IPs like this might try the sub+box fee route for the first year or two and then convert, but I don't think people will go for this long term.  Would you want to support a game that you knew was going to switch to f2p 9 - 18 months down the road?

I'm saying the model isn't self-sustaining because it hasn't been able to add any new entrants into its group.  Even the giant WoW, as people mentioned above citing its success, has lost a huge chunk of their subscriber base over the last couple of quarters.  They can afford to, but the other games can not.  As that pool ages it will eventually be marginalized.

So as a counter example what games recently released or coming up on the horizon can you point to that will shift this perception that F2P/B2P is a more favored payment model?

Curse you AquaScum!

  duuude007

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 114

5/26/13 5:28:43 PM#135
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Pie_Rat

If FP2 were such an awesome model, people wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to convince the world of its merits.

I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining.

The debate here isn't actually between whether or not the sub model is self sustaining, because it has actually been proven that it is. Games have run for literally years on it alone.

The core issue here is not what generates profit, it is what generates *more* profit.

'F2P' simply generates more, especially when it is carried by a sub user base. As a gamer though, I care about games, not increased profit that benefits none but the VCs and the shareholders.

Except the model itself is not self-sustaining. 

Strong statement. Prove it?

I have the fact that plenty of games operated for literally years on a sub alone, generating profit and supporting ongoing development, to back me up.

Honestly, I sometimes wonder how you guys think EQ etc survived all that time before the addition revenue generator of the cash shop was forced over time in to up the profits... going by your thinking EQ should have been dead in a year.

The very status quo proves it.  What recently released AAA game has been able to do P2P?  How many coming down the pipeline will be able to pull it off? I explained in the previous posts that niche games will be able to succeed on a form of sub-lock, but not AAA games.  Again, EVE can do this and thrive because no one else delivers exactly what they do.

I don't think ESO will be able to.  I'm going to watch FFXIV closely.  There are a lot of FF fans and could be enough to support that, but other huge IPs like Star Wars, Conan, and Lord of the Rings haven't been able to do so.  Why would FFXIV be able to do this?  Some IPs like this might try the sub+box fee route for the first year or two and then convert, but I don't think people will go for this long term.  Would you want to support a game that you knew was going to switch to f2p 9 - 18 months down the road?

I'm saying the model isn't self-sustaining because it hasn't been able to add any new entrants into its group.  Even the giant WoW, as people mentioned above citing its success, has lost a huge chunk of their subscriber base over the last couple of quarters.  They can afford to, but the other games can not.  As that pool ages it will eventually be marginalized.

So as a counter example what games recently released or coming up on the horizon can you point to that will shift this perception that F2P/B2P is a more favored payment model?

Proves "it", by "It" do you mean that the definition of AAA has changed? That Player attention spans and general game loyalty have ceased to be relevant? Or perhaps that the market is merely overflowing with games designed for quick cash grabs, rather than consistent pay for continued development?

Just because so few MMORPGS can go P2P does not mean that they do not want to. The financial stability of P2P is just one of those pipe dreams for many developers. Ideal, but out of reach due to other factors.

  GameByNight

Columnist / Podcast Host

Joined: 9/08/09
Posts: 82

5/26/13 7:21:04 PM#136
Originally posted by duuude007
Originally posted by GameByNight
@Vesavius: This is a column. It is my opinion. So no, you don't have a right to demand impartiality. Like most sites of our type, we maintain separate wings for editorials and news reporting. If you're looking for an fair and balanced, I would advise you scroll just a little further down and read the news.

To be perfectly accurate, he has the right to demand, and you have the right to ignore said demand ^^;

Hah. Touche.

Writer of The Tourist, Tripping the Rift, and co-writer of Player Versus Player
Host of Game On: ESP Edition
Blogger at GameByNight.com

  duuude007

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 114

5/26/13 7:26:47 PM#137
Originally posted by GameByNight
@Vesavius: This is a column. It is my opinion. So no, you don't have a right to demand impartiality. Like most sites of our type, we maintain separate wings for editorials and news reporting. If you're looking for an fair and balanced, I would advise you scroll just a little further down and read the news.

To be perfectly accurate, he has the right to demand, and you have the right to ignore said demand ^^;

  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5186

5/26/13 7:39:02 PM#138
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining, but time has shown it's not. 

 

Wow. No literally WoW and of course Everquest and a lot of other games for years. Hell Darkfall was self sustaining if only barely. Bad games are not self sustaining under any business model. 

If everquest released in 2013 it would be different story and same goes for WOW. 

WoW is released in 2013. It's in direct competition with every game out there and doing quite well in spite of being ten year old technology. I assume if Everquest were released in 2013 it would be F2P because it is.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  duuude007

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 114

5/26/13 7:55:00 PM#139
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining, but time has shown it's not. 

 

Wow. No literally WoW and of course Everquest and a lot of other games for years. Hell Darkfall was self sustaining if only barely. Bad games are not self sustaining under any business model. 

If everquest released in 2013 it would be different story and same goes for WOW. 

WoW is released in 2013. It's in direct competition with every game out there and doing quite well in spite of being ten year old technology. I assume if Everquest were released in 2013 it would be F2P because it is.

EQ was P2P for years before converting to F2P. For that matter, Anarchy Online is still P2P, and predates WOW or FFXI (also P2P)

  Rohn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3739

5/26/13 9:06:35 PM#140
Originally posted by duuude007
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Torvaldr
I P2P were such an awesome model it would be self-sustaining, but time has shown it's not. 

 

Wow. No literally WoW and of course Everquest and a lot of other games for years. Hell Darkfall was self sustaining if only barely. Bad games are not self sustaining under any business model. 

If everquest released in 2013 it would be different story and same goes for WOW. 

WoW is released in 2013. It's in direct competition with every game out there and doing quite well in spite of being ten year old technology. I assume if Everquest were released in 2013 it would be F2P because it is.

EQ was P2P for years before converting to F2P. For that matter, Anarchy Online is still P2P, and predates WOW or FFXI (also P2P)

 

Anarchy Online was an absolute trainwreck at launch - so much so, it became the standard for what NOT to do at launch, often garnering the title of "Worst Launch Ever" within the genre.  It was also one of the first to adopt the hybrid F2P model just to survive.  One can pay a sub, but it is most definitely not a P2P-only game.  In the genre today, it's not even close to being competitive.

Having said that, if a game needs to convert to a F2P model, I don't have any problem with it.  F2P is fast becoming the standard within MMOs.  It just depends on the exact scheme they adopt as to whether or not it's worth playing.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

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