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General Discussion  » Patch 5.3: The Nail in the Coffin for PvP

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60 posts found
  User Deleted
 
OP  5/23/13 7:25:48 AM#21
Originally posted by Shadoed

I am not a dedicated PvP player, i hold a couple of the old titles from way back but only as far as Sergeant as i enjoy a little PvP from time to time. One of the things that has put me off BG's and other PvP related stuff over the past few years has been the fact that you knew for damned sure that you were going to get owned 100% by the guys who had full PvP gear.

Doesn't this flatlining of PvP advantage via gear encourage more people to participate and therefore promote PvP across the board or am i just not seeing where the major issue is? Surely it gives dedicated PvP players more of a chance to show their skill within their own arena?

It's called paying your dues.  Do you honestly think that all of the guys in full PvP gear magically started that way?  

 

This is another problem with the genre in general, everyone wants to be on par with the hardcore players without investing any time and effort.  

 

Gear progression in PvP is just as fair as skill progression.  You invest time to improve your character and become more effective at the style of gameplay you enjoy.  

 

We've gotta stop with this entitlement mentality or at least stop disguising it as the "skill vs. gear" argument.    I like games where it takes both to be optimal and taking that away isn't doing much to improve the genre. 

 

  Shadoed

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1484

5/23/13 7:28:59 AM#22
Originally posted by steamtank

pvp was best in this game when there was ZERO reason to do it.

 

Can't argue with that. Escorting lower level guys down from SW to get the ships over to Crossroads. Standing on the hills taunting the Horde guys to come out and fight, waves of guys and gals on both sides arriving and leaving creating an ebb and flow of victory from one side to the other.

 

Good times :)

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  DigitalLeash

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/08
Posts: 28

5/23/13 7:33:49 AM#23
Originally posted by fat_taddler

Over the years, I have watched as Blizzard catered to PvE players while we PvP'ers (the only ones actually bringing "war" to Warcraft), have been somewhat neglected.

 

With patch 5.3,  Blizzard has finally managed to get me to stop playing WoW by basically handing PvP superiority over to PvE focused players.

-This is simply untrue. In instanced based PvP (which is where competitive PvP happens in WoW), the best PvP gear will outperform the best PvE gear. Now for world PvP, i couldn't agree more -for reasons explained below.

 

Until now, Blizz had done a pretty good job at providing separate progression for PvP players, including ranks, achievements, and of course gear.   

 

Implementing PVP specific stats ensured that PvE players had no place in our aspects of the game the same way that PvP gear is useless in raids.  

 

Patch 5.3 has officially castrated PvP players by removing all PvP specific stats while capping item levels in all battlegrounds (not just rated) and arenas. 

-This is also untrue. The PvP power stat is still exclusive to PvP gear. It also does not count towards the item level of said gear. As for the item level cap, it caps it at 496, which is the highest level of PvP gear you can get. The cap only HELPS PvP gear stay dominate by lowering the PvE gear item level. Now this is where the problem arises in world PvP. Without the cap, PvE gear is certainly superior.

 

On top of that, Blizz decided not to give PvP gear any sort of replacement stats to compensate which has made PvE gear way more effective for PvP in terms of damage output.

 

You may be asking, "what about damage mitigation?"  Well this is where Blizzard really turned the screws on us by giving all characters 65% resilience regardless of gear.   This makes tank specs and PvE tank gear the only viable way to dramatically enhance damage mitigation (through dodge & block).

 

Well at least we can go tank spec for PvP if we want better damage mitigation, right?   You can but in their infinite wisdom, Blizz has also decided to implement a debuff that significantly increases the amount of damage taken by tank spec'd characters in battlegrounds.

 

I understand that Blizz wants to normalize PvP gear to make it more about skill but don't give PvE players a distinct advantage in the process.   Also, if I want skill based PVP, there are plenty of non-sub options out there.

 

While i don't agree with 5.3 being "the nail in the coffin for PvP", they certainly could've thought out the problems the changes bring to world PvP, a bit more.

  IstrebiteI

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 272

5/23/13 7:40:41 AM#24
I have played WoW since 1.1 and had fun PVP'ing since I first tried leaving RP-PVE server and going for RP-PVP. I played arenas and rated bg's as Rogue and Druid (Heal). I have unsubbed many times, last time was in the middle of Cata when I got to a point where I have to stop being a healer and go feral to be competitive, because druid heals were not as useful as other heals, and I would be last one to be picked into rated bg group. Actually my reasons to become bored at PVP every time was mostly class imbalance

- In BC, I had played Mage/Rogue and while it was good (and a powerful comp), some comps like Druid/Lock totally destroyed us and that was just bullshit, because after we got high enough in rating, it was just pure frustration - earn points very hard just to lose them to a pack of druid/locks. To tell the truth, we also owned warrior/druids easilly so imbalance went both ways.

- In WotLK, I had a friend Retro Paladin and we had huge fun doing 2v2 but we were not the "Best comp" so we couldn't get far from 1900, while when I teamed with Disc Priest it was damn boring, but we climbed rating steadilly.

- In Cata, druid heals were fine, until you want to go competitive rated bg where you're not wanted, because other classes do it better (namely, can save from focus better). And I wanted to heal and I didn't care to level up another char just because Blizz can't get their balance right.

But I digress.

A lot of people had different problem with PVP in WoW. First, you had to farm for gear, which not only was tedious and boring (like, in order to do what I want, I have to spend several weeks doing something I do not want), but also you had to play vs people who have advantage just because they started playing before you did, and have more gear. Second, you had to PVE for gear. And I felt that too.

This update actually made me consider coming back to WoW. Why? Because IMHO, they got two things right:

1. You don't have to constantly be inferior in stats if you were not at max lvl when xpac/new season hit.

Catching up is much easier now. Before, you would have to spend lots of weeks being behind in gear just because someone else started playing before you. Now, I think 1k per week is not enough because you get at least 1800 per week (if calculators are correct), so you will have a disadvantage, but at least its much smaller.

Also, gear purchaseable for honor when you got enough conquest? Why yes. Very good.

2. You don't have to PVE to get gear for PVP.

I think people see it one way - now PVE gear will be better at PVP. You know what, it was good for PVP before. In BC and in WotlK, when I was Rogue, I knew I will always be gimped against another rogue who raids heroics because for rogue, PVE gear was better than PVP gear. And those who got Glaives/top PVE weapons would just wreck shit. We once had a premade BG on WSG vs a team geared with raid items - we could not freaking kill their carrier. Too much mitigation and HP. And their mages and rogues just gibbed people. PVE gear was also always bigger in item levels (or would appear earlier). And legendaries - no such thing in PVP. So nothing really changed here.

However, now when gear is level capped, you would not be able to take your heroic elite epics and legendaries and have a benefit in PVP because you are good at PVE. Because it's capped to the item level PVP gear has. And now that there is PVP Power on items, if the stat is balanced all right, PVP gear will actually be better for PVP than PVE gear because PVE gear will not have this stat. So hopefully PVE legenday weapons will finally be LESS good at PVP than PVP weapons, for the first time in history.

Before, no matter how hard Blizz tried, they could not ever make PVE gear unattractive in PVP because it had flat bonus stats! It was just better, and after you got your desired resi amount, you'd have to get PVE gear to improve. However, now they actually have a way to balance this - because they can tweak PVP Power stat, making it more powerful if PVE gear seems to good in PVP. Why can they do it now and couldn't before? Because item level is capped! So no matter how cool that legendary is, it will be downgraded to your normal weapon level everybody has.

So, can someone explain to me, why this patch is actually bad for PVPers (except for the fact it won't be as easy to pwn pve noobz as it was before?)
  Shadoed

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1484

5/23/13 7:43:06 AM#25
Originally posted by fat_taddler
Originally posted by Shadoed

I am not a dedicated PvP player, i hold a couple of the old titles from way back but only as far as Sergeant as i enjoy a little PvP from time to time. One of the things that has put me off BG's and other PvP related stuff over the past few years has been the fact that you knew for damned sure that you were going to get owned 100% by the guys who had full PvP gear.

Doesn't this flatlining of PvP advantage via gear encourage more people to participate and therefore promote PvP across the board or am i just not seeing where the major issue is? Surely it gives dedicated PvP players more of a chance to show their skill within their own arena?

It's called paying your dues.  Do you honestly think that all of the guys in full PvP gear magically started that way?  

 

This is another problem with the genre in general, everyone wants to be on par with the hardcore players without investing any time and effort.  

 

Gear progression in PvP is just as fair as skill progression.  You invest time to improve your character and become more effective at the style of gameplay you enjoy.  

 

We've gotta stop with this entitlement mentality or at least stop disguising it as the "skill vs. gear" argument.    I like games where it takes both to be optimal and taking that away isn't doing much to improve the genre. 

 

I stand to be corrected but didn't you just make an argument for your 'entitlement' to your own niche of the game because you have 'paid your dues'?!? Do you think that all those raid geared people magically started that way as well, did they not pay their dues to collect their gear too?

To be fair across the board, you know that in the game the way it is now you don't need to be fantastic at either to get yourself some decent gear, you just have to invest the time, so is gear that meaningful now anyway?

What you are saying is that a whole swathe of the game community should be locked out of any meaningful involvement in PvP because they have decided to 'pay their dues' in terms of PvE instead, their choice, their loss, is that it? But hasn't that been the problem for a long time, not enough people involved in PvP to give it any meaning within the game anymore?

Am i saying that some level of dedication to yuor particular facet of the game should not be recognised, of course not and that is where i think the titles made a difference all that time back, more people were involved but only those that dedicated their time to PvP and 'paid their dues' if you like were able to achieve those titles, but i still achieved my titles as a PvE orientated player and not a PvP dedicated player because i could still get involved.

 

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1744

5/23/13 7:49:29 AM#26
Vanilla WoW was a good time (bonkers pvp, but still a good time) and they had no pvp stats. Maybe they should just go back to that, I know pvpers love to cry about pve gear, but how about pvpers stop ruining MMO's with their incessant whining and go play counter-strike/dota and let developers make proper MMO's with PvP as an added bonus?
  NobleNerd

Elite Member

Joined: 2/08/08
Posts: 467

Try not!Do or do notThere is no try.

5/23/13 7:53:02 AM#27
Originally posted by Robokapp

wow's traditional pvp problem: burst + cc = kill

 

wow's solution: slow down damage.

 

wow's new problem: they didn't also slow down healers.

 

wow's new solution: redistribute power across dps.

 

wow's new end result: clunky balancing at all levels.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

you know what the solution to wow's pvp problems would be ? "in battlegrounds, all character health is increased by 1000%.

 

problem solved.

WoW has always offered a solution to be met by reality. Not one time have they ever been able to come close to balancing pvp. Played that game for 6yrs. Every time they patched and changed stats, gear, abilities, etc. it always failed and created more problems. That is why after the Panda invasion I left.

  DigitalLeash

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/08
Posts: 28

5/23/13 7:53:51 AM#28

IstrebiteI, i completely agree with your post.

As for the last sentence. I believe the problem this patch brings to the PvP community is in world PvP. Without that item level cap, all those things you were saying about legendaries and epic trinkets ect. will be free to wreak havoc in wPvP.

Now in my opinion, PvP gear should be dominate to PvE gear (or atleast equal) in any kind of PvP, whether that's inside of an arena, or out in the open world. As it stands, PvE gear has a decent advantage in the latter.

  User Deleted
 
OP  5/23/13 7:57:54 AM#29
Originally posted by Shadoed
Originally posted by fat_taddler
 

I stand to be corrected but didn't you just make an argument for your 'entitlement' to your own niche of the game because you have 'paid your dues'?!? Do you think that all those raid geared people magically started that way as well, did they not pay their dues to collect their gear too?

To be fair across the board, you know that in the game the way it is now you don't need to be fantastic at either to get yourself some decent gear, you just have to invest the time, so is gear that meaningful now anyway?

What you are saying is that a whole swathe of the game community should be locked out of any meaningful involvement in PvP because they have decided to 'pay their dues' in terms of PvE instead, their choice, their loss, is that it? But hasn't that been the problem for a long time, not enough people involved in PvP to give it any meaning within the game anymore?

Am i saying that some level of dedication to yuor particular facet of the game should not be recognised, of course not and that is where i think the titles made a difference all that time back, more people were involved but only those that dedicated their time to PvP and 'paid their dues' if you like were able to achieve those titles, but i still achieved my titles as a PvE orientated player and not a PvP dedicated player because i could still get involved.

 

Absolutely not, raiders certainly pay their dues and are rewarded the same as PvP players who invest in that aspect of the game.

 

But you bring up a good point, most players don't expect to go into the latest heroic tuned raid and down the boss on their first try.   However in PvP,  the new mindset is that someone just starting out should somehow be on par with players who have invested a large amount of time and effort to tune their characters for optimal effectiveness in PvP activities.

 

We've really gotten off topic from my OP.  My concern is more about how PvE gear is now more effective than PvP gear in many situations especially world PvP (which is my guilds primary focus).   

 

A good debate though, we could probably go on for quite some time.

 

 

  IstrebiteI

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 272

5/23/13 8:03:13 AM#30
Originally posted by DigitalLeash

IstrebiteI, i completely agree with your post.

As for the last sentence. I believe the problem this patch brings to the PvP community is in world PvP. Without that item level cap, all those things you were saying about legendaries and epic trinkets ect. will be free to wreak havoc in wPvP.

Now in my opinion, PvP gear should be dominate to PvE gear (or atleast equal) in any kind of PvP, whether that's inside of an arena, or out in the open world. As it stands, PvE gear has a decent advantage in the latter.

Well, if they balance it so that in areana/rated bg, best PVP gear is by a big margin better than PVE gear, hopefully in WPVP it will be equal.

And you see, there is a problem with your point (even though I understand why you think that way). See, WPVP is where two worlds - PVPers and PVErs meet. It's not some big place for PVPers only, like in Guild Wars 2, its THE game world. World with quests, pve quests that is, also pve mobs, pve locations. So, I think it is actually okay if in WPVP, best PVE gear is roughly equal to best PVP gear, because otherwise, PVErs won't be able to show their faces outside protected areas to actually do PVE (play versus environment) because people in PVP gear are there to pwn their faces with superior gear.

Think about it - pve focused player is already at a disadvantage because he's on a different mindset. He's not probably ready for pvp, or at least not as prepared as a player who's out to do some ganking. So if he's also disadvantaged because he didn't spend time farming arenas/bg's... i don't think that's a good idea.

Of course, if PVE gear is better than PVP gear by a reasonable margin in WPVP, that is a problem, but I think it can be solved by adjusting the level cap (rasing this cap, and consequently, ilvl of pvp items, will tilt balance in PVP items favor, and opposite way for opposite effect).

  silverreign

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 325

It is what it is

5/23/13 8:06:20 AM#31


Originally posted by fat_taddler
Over the years, I have watched as Blizzard catered to PvE players while we PvP'ers (the only ones actually bringing "war" to Warcraft), have been somewhat neglected. 

 

With patch 5.3,  Blizzard has finally managed to get me to stop playing WoW by basically handing PvP superiority over to PvE focused players.

 

Until now, Blizz had done a pretty good job at providing separate progression for PvP players, including ranks, achievements, and of course gear.   

 

Implementing PVP specific stats ensured that PvE players had no place in our aspects of the game the same way that PvP gear is useless in raids.  

 

Patch 5.3 has officially castrated PvP players by removing all PvP specific stats while capping item levels in all battlegrounds (not just rated) and arenas.  

 

On top of that, Blizz decided not to give PvP gear any sort of replacement stats to compensate which has made PvE gear way more effective for PvP in terms of damage output.

 

You may be asking, "what about damage mitigation?"  Well this is where Blizzard really turned the screws on us by giving all characters 65% resilience regardless of gear.   This makes tank specs and PvE tank gear the only viable way to dramatically enhance damage mitigation (through dodge & block).

 

Well at least we can go tank spec for PvP if we want better damage mitigation, right?   You can but in their infinite wisdom, Blizz has also decided to implement a debuff that significantly increases the amount of damage taken by tank spec'd characters in battlegrounds.

 

I understand that Blizz wants to normalize PvP gear to make it more about skill but don't give PvE players a distinct advantage in the process.   Also, if I want skill based PVP, there are plenty of non-sub options out there.

 



this was how blizzard got u to stop playing wow? really? of all the reasons this was it? lmao

  silverreign

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 325

It is what it is

5/23/13 8:08:07 AM#32


Originally posted by Rusque
Vanilla WoW was a good time (bonkers pvp, but still a good time) and they had no pvp stats. Maybe they should just go back to that, I know pvpers love to cry about pve gear, but how about pvpers stop ruining MMO's with their incessant whining and go play counter-strike/dota and let developers make proper MMO's with PvP as an added bonus?

+1ooooooooo

  DigitalLeash

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/08
Posts: 28

5/23/13 8:13:55 AM#33
Originally posted by IstrebiteI
Originally posted by DigitalLeash

IstrebiteI, i completely agree with your post.

As for the last sentence. I believe the problem this patch brings to the PvP community is in world PvP. Without that item level cap, all those things you were saying about legendaries and epic trinkets ect. will be free to wreak havoc in wPvP.

Now in my opinion, PvP gear should be dominate to PvE gear (or atleast equal) in any kind of PvP, whether that's inside of an arena, or out in the open world. As it stands, PvE gear has a decent advantage in the latter.

Well, if they balance it so that in areana/rated bg, best PVP gear is by a big margin better than PVE gear, hopefully in WPVP it will be equal.

And you see, there is a problem with your point (even though I understand why you think that way). See, WPVP is where two worlds - PVPers and PVErs meet. It's not some big place for PVPers only, like in Guild Wars 2, its THE game world. World with quests, pve quests that is, also pve mobs, pve locations. So, I think it is actually okay if in WPVP, best PVE gear is roughly equal to best PVP gear, because otherwise, PVErs won't be able to show their faces outside protected areas to actually do PVE (play versus environment) because people in PVP gear are there to pwn their faces with superior gear.

Think about it - pve focused player is already at a disadvantage because he's on a different mindset. He's not probably ready for pvp, or at least not as prepared as a player who's out to do some ganking. So if he's also disadvantaged because he didn't spend time farming arenas/bg's... i don't think that's a good idea.

Of course, if PVE gear is better than PVP gear by a reasonable margin in WPVP, that is a problem, but I think it can be solved by adjusting the level cap (rasing this cap, and consequently, ilvl of pvp items, will tilt balance in PVP items favor, and opposite way for opposite effect).

Good points. Sadly, the way the item levels have been sorted out this patch, top PvE gear simply wipes the floor with PvP gear out in the open. That just rubs me the wrong way.

In the past, to be effective in wPvP, you worked your way through BGs, arenas ect. to get that epic PvP gear. You did PvP, to be effective at it. Now, you work your way...through raids? Bleh

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1412

5/23/13 8:15:52 AM#34
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Arthasm
Skills. No gear. Period.

 

No stats. Is no rpg. Period.

This.  People that want 100% balance need to go play a console game.  I could never figure out how the "skill only" crowd ended up in MMORPG's.  RPG and character building is not for you, go play a super shallow console game where everyone is the same.

 

Blizz should have separated the skill abilities for instanced PvP and PvE/ open world PvP from the beginning.  Now they have a mess on their hands.  I have no idea why MMO's makers refuse to separate PvE and PvP abilities in a primarily instanced PvP game.

 

PvP attempts at balance have gutted PvE abilities since the beginning.  Really the only answer is to separate things for the good of both PvP and PvE.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2817

5/23/13 8:18:07 AM#35
Originally posted by Wizardry

MY many years of gaming both PVE and PVP has taught me that they CANNOT co exist on the same platform.Having pvp specific gear is not the answer either,that is just another meaningless grind that is not needed.

PVP should always be straight up fair,no way can you possibly pull that off with rpg class designs..100% impossible.

That is why i can't stand pvp in rpg's it has no satisfaction knowing there is no balance.It is tough enough to play FPS's with just the latency imbalance.

What you need if designing a rpg style is a whole different set of game mechanics and it has to really be well thought out.First of all you need dmg to be equal across the board.You need to create specially designed maps,you need melee/mid range and long range,you need splash damage and combos,preferably several options in combos like 2/3/4 player combos instead of the usual solo combo.

If the game does not offer this setup you are simply playing a game that gives unfair advantages,that is not hardcore that is shallow gaming.Point is Wow NEVER had it right,that is why they keep making changes,they simply do not "get it".

When i play the best pvp game ever UT99,i don't hear players bitching at the game,it is usually at me ,complaining about the way i play or the weapons i use.You see it comes down to the players,not gear or how much time i played and you have CHOICE in weapons,so every play style is there for you to play and get better at.

I think that RPGs can be very good games for PvP as long as you give everyone access to all skills/items etc. So everyone is playing on a equal footing. Also what games should balance around is team play not stupid 1v1s. 1v1 can't be balanced of course as different classes have different abilities. Only mirror 1v1 are "balanced". GW1 did this very well. The only thing they should have done is have all skills/items unlocked right off the bat like GW2 did.

FPS games are "fair" and "balanced" but they are very simplistic and lack depth in the tactics department imo. They are all about twitch response gaming, control and very basic co-ordination. RPGs have different classes, skill builds and item builds and as a result have the potential for much more depth. Look at Dota, it has tons of classes and everyone plays on an equal footing and I think it has way much more depth than any FPS game. FPS games focus too much on shooting and too little on tactics. I would pick Dota or SC2 as the ultimate form of PvP game any time over a game like CoD/CS/BF.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Epicent

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 671

Die clickers Die!!!

5/23/13 8:20:19 AM#36
You would think after 8 years they would have this fine tuned by now. The fact that they keep changing the game around completely disgust me. I hope they lose even more subs.
  cura

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/04
Posts: 868

5/23/13 8:23:14 AM#37

That would be greatest news for me if i were playing WoW. I always hated games which separated PvP from PvE as i like to do both and hate mindless grind. I would even say i hate those acronyms as they became a sole definition of current mmo(rpg)s. 

 

Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Arthasm
Skills. No gear. Period.

 

No stats. Is no rpg. Period.

 

RPG is not about numbers. Excell is.

  Sulaa

Elite Member

Joined: 7/13/11
Posts: 898

5/23/13 8:43:44 AM#38
Hint:  If you're looking for arena type of PVP, maybe it's a time to play actual lobby mutliplayer PVP games that focus on this and do it good, instead of playing an mmorpg ?   Just saying.
  deniter

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/08
Posts: 639

5/23/13 8:57:36 AM#39

You can't implement any kind of balanced and equal ground PvP into a game where your only purpose is to gain power stat and gear wise.

Arenas and Battlegrounds are ok if you dont have any kind of PvP gear in a game. Those who have the best gear from dungeons, raids and faction reputations are on the top, and rightly so. They have played the game and succeed.

Wanna play PvP where player skill matters? Go play CS, LoL, Moba, Dota, or whatever but leave MMORPGs alone.

  IstrebiteI

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 272

5/23/13 9:10:23 AM#40
Originally posted by deniter

You can't implement any kind of balanced and equal ground PvP into a game where your only purpose is to gain power stat and gear wise.

Arenas and Battlegrounds are ok if you dont have any kind of PvP gear in a game. Those who have the best gear from dungeons, raids and faction reputations are on the top, and rightly so. They have played the game and succeed.

Wanna play PvP where player skill matters? Go play CS, LoL, Moba, Dota, or whatever but leave MMORPGs alone.

Hmm? MMORPG is massive multiplayer online roleplaying game. RPG does not equal item progression, it equals playing a role. It means the game is supposed to be more than just a mechanic (unlike Minesweeper or Pinball) but rather have a character that you control, character you can play a role of, not just an avatar/player figurine (unlike Super Mario).

Why should not MMORPG have PVP where skill matters? Skill should not be the ONLY thing that matters, of course, there should be a sense of progression to it, but still, you're saying PVP that has SKILL >> GEAR has no place MMORPGs?

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