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WildStar

WildStar 

General Discussion  » I want to pay for the game and have a sub.

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209 posts found
  udon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1614

5/21/13 9:39:07 PM#181
Originally posted by Thupli
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by Thupli
Originally posted by udon
 

What I am saying is that your average raider is not going to look twice at a F2P or B2P game because of the stigma they still carry about quality and long term content support.  IF a game wants to draw top end raiding guilds to their game in large numbers they will need to be a sub.  

That's all I am saying, I am not saying catering to raiders is what NCSoft should do or even what they will do just what they need to do if that's their goal.

I dont understand where you are getting this info from.  You could easily make a F2P or B2P game that had raiding in it and people would play it.  Those games are already out there. 

 

Raiders care about content and gameplay, not payment models.  If W* does well with both of those, it won't matter what the payment model is, raiders will play it.

 

You talk about what F2P and B2P games could do and I talk about what they have done.  F2P and B2P games focus new content on getting people to spend money in the cash shop so it tends to be disposable in nature, sub games create new content to add a new level to the treadmill of progression.  It's a very subtle difference but a important one.

I know a lot of raiders that have high hopes for Wildstar but very few of them will tolerate a F2P or B2P game.  If Wildstar really wants to bring back raiding they are going to have to make the game a sub.  If that's really not a primary goal of theirs than it's hard to beat the 1-2 year return on investment that F2P or B2P gives you.  I think the jury is still out regrading the long term viability of either of those models over the time span of a classic MMO.

I'll play the game regardless but how I play it will vary greatly on the sub model.  If it's F2P or B2P it's a disposable distraction to pass the time until something better comes along.  If it's sub I will at least give end game raiding a try as long as I feel that they are serious about supporting it long term and not just release a few raid zones at launch to check a box ala SWTOR.

 

"You talk about what F2P and B2P games could do and I talk about what they have done. "

Specificallly, no, I talk that W* can do whatever they want, but there are plenty of other F2P games that are F2P that have raiding in it.

 

Honestly, it just sounds like you are projecting that since you want subs, you are claiming that so does every other raider.  IMO, they dont care anymore than anyone else.  Anecdotally, I am a raider and I prefer a B2P model and will not tolerate a sub again.

Name one that launched F2P/B2P or doesn't have a sub option?

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3140

5/21/13 9:43:11 PM#182
Originally posted by DamonVile

It blows me away that there are ppl out there that think a cash shop selling ANYTHING in a sub game is ok.

Even blizzard has said the age of subs is probably coming to an end. The market has changed.

I don't like cash shops in any game.  All should be buy box, and pay subscription.  Been playing MMOs since 1991, a long time before F2P was even around.  I've spent more in F2P games than I ever did in P2P games...I don't get why everyone wants F2P, P2P is so much cheaper.

 

F2P is like socialism, I pay alot more than P2P to make up for someone who probably doesn't have a job and just sits around playing games all day lol.

 

I guess it could be worse.  We could go back to the old AOL model Neverwinter had, where you had to pay by the hour XD

  Ticonz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 126

5/21/13 9:45:19 PM#183
 I dont' mind it being box to play but if it is.. I hope it at least costs 150 dollars to keep certain types of players out...  ( we all know what type of players those are.   )      XD

  markibog

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/11
Posts: 5

5/21/13 10:07:27 PM#184
Nah its rather b2p or p2p.
  Battlerock

Elite Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 811

5/21/13 10:08:44 PM#185
Originally posted by Rinna

I don't want Wildstar to be free to play.  I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's.  Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop.

I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why.  20 bucks a month... sound fair?  Please give me back sub based gaming.

What you actually want, is for this game to be good enough to warrant a sub, unlike almost all the other trash that is generated.

  User Deleted
5/22/13 2:58:46 AM#186
Originally posted by KingofHartz
Originally posted by Rinna

I don't want Wildstar to be free to play.  I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's.  Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop.

I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why.  20 bucks a month... sound fair?  Please give me back sub based gaming.

What you actually want, is for this game to be good enough to warrant a sub, unlike almost all the other trash that is generated.

Archeage, Albion, I could even go into the freeware games area of things and point out titans of their niche such as Dwarf Fortress. Free does not equate trash, p2p does not equate quality of gameplay, SWtOR is a clear cut example of this, good production values, good story, good aesthetics, shit ass gameplay.

  Snigerknud

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/13
Posts: 60

5/22/13 3:05:15 AM#187
Its NCsoft so I think they will make same model as GW2 and that one is working very well.. B2P model
  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

5/22/13 3:11:31 AM#188
Originally posted by Demalis

I have read many posts in these forums, one of my favorite is refunds on GW2, I really don't want to discuss ethics now. And to top it off P2P dying, lmfao. do the math 100k subs x 15$/month = 1.5 mil$/month, and 18mil$/year if you can not make that kind of budget work, I don't think you should be in business in the first place.  Sure they make more on F2P cash shops, I want a good game to play, not a my game is better than yours epeen contest.

But ya one of the reasons I have a hard time with fantasy games, is I am getting so tired of trolls.

Wait a sec, you really think your investors will stand buy and wait for ~8 years for you to just pay them back? Before even starting to turn a profit? I do not think you understand timescales nor how expensive mmo's are to produce.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  User Deleted
5/22/13 3:23:30 AM#189
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Demalis

I have read many posts in these forums, one of my favorite is refunds on GW2, I really don't want to discuss ethics now. And to top it off P2P dying, lmfao. do the math 100k subs x 15$/month = 1.5 mil$/month, and 18mil$/year if you can not make that kind of budget work, I don't think you should be in business in the first place.  Sure they make more on F2P cash shops, I want a good game to play, not a my game is better than yours epeen contest.

But ya one of the reasons I have a hard time with fantasy games, is I am getting so tired of trolls.

Wait a sec, you really think your investors will stand buy and wait for ~8 years for you to just pay them back? Before even starting to turn a profit? I do not think you understand timescales nor how expensive mmo's are to produce.

Depends on the MMO though, quite a few less visually stunning but solid gameplay experience MMOs from the indie scene are coming down the pipes one of which I can vouch from experience feels fresh and play really well at an early stage of development but does this using the unity engine so it looks , from a graphics fidelity point of view, no better than lets say Torchlight 2 but point still stands that if the devs do it right the MMO won't be a several dozen maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars in budget. The soul of the game is not in the budget, that comes from the dedication of the whole dev team towards their dream and that is a rare, rare thing these days in gaming as a whole.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6744

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

5/22/13 4:11:34 AM#190
Originally posted by Snigerknud
Its NCsoft so I think they will make same model as GW2 and that one is working very well.. B2P model

That depends on WHO it is working for,I rather see a subscription and content that justifies it.With zero income coming in after the initial sales burst,there is no incentive to do anything for the game.

Every game i have played that was any good,encourages a ton of RMT that ruin the game.I can only imagine a f2p setup how out of hand it would get.That would of course depend on how dependent game currency is and item sales .

What i have also seen in f2p is even when a game gets boring,example not enough content,those players still login because it is free,they make a nuisance of themselves in chat.Things like "This game sucks" "I'm going back to Wow threats" "This game has a crap end game" trust me i have seen a million of them.Quite often they will ljust sit in chat and argue with other players over nothing,more or less just insulting each other

So you know if there was a sub fee and those players didn't lie kthe game anymore or got bored,they would msot likely leave,but they don't have to when it's f2p.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6744

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

5/22/13 4:20:36 AM#191
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Demalis

I have read many posts in these forums, one of my favorite is refunds on GW2, I really don't want to discuss ethics now. And to top it off P2P dying, lmfao. do the math 100k subs x 15$/month = 1.5 mil$/month, and 18mil$/year if you can not make that kind of budget work, I don't think you should be in business in the first place.  Sure they make more on F2P cash shops, I want a good game to play, not a my game is better than yours epeen contest.

But ya one of the reasons I have a hard time with fantasy games, is I am getting so tired of trolls.

Wait a sec, you really think your investors will stand buy and wait for ~8 years for you to just pay them back? Before even starting to turn a profit? I do not think you understand timescales nor how expensive mmo's are to produce.

There is a MAJOR problem with gaming>>> "investors".Free money,not your own.I guarantee you put out a better effort when working with your own money and have your whole life on the line because of it.

FFXI was just that game that took 5 years to turn a profit and reason it is imo the best rpg game ever made.There was no investor,they used their own money,made their own game engine,so no licensing fees either and published their own game,run their own servers,so no publisher fees.

That is imo the best setup for a developer,nobody to answer to but yourselves,no added loss of income to outside sources like publishers ,investors.Having a sub fee also gives you a much better understanding on how many players and how much bandwidth and server space will be needed.

Even more bad things come about f2p,they have no income coming in ,so they  create a game that runs very cheap,example shards.I can't speak for others but i absolutely hate shards.

I also have no doubt what so ever that future content xpacs will be cheap as well as that is their only source of income.All a game needs to do is create a carrot and gamer's keep coming back even if the game is shallow in content ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Zalmon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 323

5/22/13 9:59:38 AM#192

In the end after all being said and done..... P2P model depends upon the players and not the gaming company. If players are not ready to spend 15 bucks a month just to get access to the game well then you can not blame the companies.

  Panzerbase

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 431

5/22/13 10:00:01 AM#193
Sub or bust, not going to go near it if they go FTP and any variation of B2P.
  udon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1614

5/22/13 10:07:21 AM#194

The more I think about the F2P business model the less interest I have in playing their games.  The really big issue I have with F2P and yea even multiplayer B2P games is that money plays a part in the decision process for how you play the game.  Back in the days when they had true sub games with no cash shop that wasn't the case.  What you did in game was based on what you and your friends wanted to do not what you needed to do in order to avoid spending money in the cash shop.

Need a few examples?

1.  Inventory management.  Sub games let you purchase inventory slots with in game currency where F2P and B2P games make you buy it with real money.  This means that every time you get something you want to keep in a F2P or B2P game you have to judge it's value against your willingness to take up valuable inventory spots that you ultimately will need to spend real money to expand.

2.  Real money to in game money conversations.  I remember when buying in game currency was taboo.  The people who did it didn't brag about it.  Now it's accepted practices that activities that a few years ago dev's would ban your account for because of how detrimental to the game economy it was now are a core part of the game mechanics.  All the issues that buying game currency with real money create still exist just like they did years ago when it was bad for the game the developers have just cut out the middle man.

3.  Gambling boxes.  I have no issue with gambling and I really look forward to my yearly trips to Vegas but this is really ridiculous.  I have to say that STO is probably the worst example of this.  Why is it that players would have a fit if a developer put a item up for sale for $100 on the game market but don't think twice about spending $1 at a time trying to get a item that has 100 to 1 or worse odds of winning?  I really wise developers would be required to release the odds because than we would see just how bad this system really is.

I could go on but I'm hungry.

  Isaelyn

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/12
Posts: 3

5/22/13 10:48:21 AM#195

From my point of view the real problem with subscription based games at this point is the sense of "obligation" that comes with paying that sub, in that sense that once it's payed any free time you spend NOT playing that game feels like money wasted. What this creates is an environment where every sub game is directly competing against every other sub game in a way that's make or break because most people ( in my opinion ) will only choose one or the other. Your game has to be without a doubt better in every possible way because that little payment obligation dictates that there can be only one, creating a metaphysical game of mmo-highlander. 

 

Now, don't get me wrong. In practice it doesn't always play out like this, historically speaking many sub based mmos have been running at the same time and a lot of the older ones are even still around. What that doesn't change however is that subscriptions create a very narrow market space, where your game has to compete against monitory investment ( of the players into your competition ), the quality of the competition itself, and then nostalgia and time investment on top of it. 

 

Those last two points are particularly brutal and are two very important things that need to be addressed if you want to compete against something like say, WoW. People have been playing wow for a long time, they have a lot of free time invested and fond memories. In order to successfully "steal" players, what you need to compete not only against WoW itself, but also the players memories and commitments, which is what I believe is what led to what span a while back where virtually every mmo on the market was an "easymode wow-clone" because, in the end what better way to try to compete with time and memory than a similar system that's easy to catch up in? By that same token, if that is the most logical way to attract subs what investor is going to dump money into development of anything but?

 

What free-to-play creates, is a shared space where players can always go to where there friends are and because you can play whenever you want, it eliminates that sense of  "What game do I play this month" and the complications that come with "All my friends are playing X but I really kind of want to try Y...." ( the latter of which was actually what stopped me from playing rift a lot when it was new, because while I wanted to play it all of the people who I play with had just went into one of their "I miss wow" phases ).

Now, this isn't to say that free to play itself isn't without problems, it most assuredly is. Price gouging, demanding payment for things that you need. EQ2 for example, while better as of late is guilty of one of the things I find the most annoying which is having to pay to wear gear above a certain quality level, and to learn the max rank versions of your skills. Then you get into the realm of anyone with a computer can get in, which really does bring in some negative people ( which is not to say that mmos don't have negative players with a sub model, but at least in my experience you're less likely to see people running around past beta spamming chat with "Omg this game sucks" half the time, or using baby accounts to troll people ).

Personally, one way I would handle that in a free to play game that also has a sub option, is to have 3 server types. Free to play servers, a few for people who've spent money at least once, and then a couple more just for people who sub ( with free character moves to those server types if you should choose to ).

 

That brings me to my final point however. One thing free to play does bring? New players, granted you'd probably get more from a sub game converting to free to play, as opposed to a game that's just free to play from the get go but... at the end of the day, new players are the life-blood of any online game. Without them the population stagnates, and with a sub, you have to compete against all the factors that keep people playing wow, and eventually all of those people with wow accounts are going to get wow nostalgia and if your game doesn't provide them that fix, they're going to be going back for a while and then, even if it does? Well if they wanted to play wow they'd be playing wow. 

  udon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1614

5/22/13 12:35:28 PM#196
Originally posted by Isaelyn

From my point of view the real problem with subscription based games at this point is the sense of "obligation" that comes with paying that sub, in that sense that once it's payed any free time you spend NOT playing that game feels like money wasted. What this creates is an environment where every sub game is directly competing against every other sub game in a way that's make or break because most people ( in my opinion ) will only choose one or the other. Your game has to be without a doubt better in every possible way because that little payment obligation dictates that there can be only one, creating a metaphysical game of mmo-highlander. 

I have a subscription to Netflix and don't feel like I have to watch movies every night to get my money worth from it so why is a game sub different?

Yea F2P/B2P does have the advantage of being able to drop in and out of the game whenever you like but I have yet to play one that had anything resembling a game system I would want to stay around more than a month or two for so that;s a good thing.

My personal opinion is that F2P and B2P MMO's make great short term distractions that you can do whenever you feel like where a SUB game done right is a virtual 2nd home that you can retreat to after a long days work.  It's a subtle difference but a important one and one that I have found myself missing.

I don't know about anyone else but I have never played a F2P or B2P MMO a fraction of a precent as many hours as I have put into a sub based game.  They just don't have the depth or compelling content to hold my interest that long.  Part of it is community but also I think part of it is design.  F2P and B2P games are designed to suck as much money out of as many players as quickly as possible before they get bored and move on where sub games done right are designed to keep people playing the game for years.

I really hope Wildstar is a Sub game done right.

  Twigmansam

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/30/12
Posts: 10

5/22/13 1:53:57 PM#197

The game will have a hybrid model.

Source: an interview with Jeremy Gaffney from gamebreakernation on YouTube posted earlier today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfnpbIhY2PU

:)

 

The last few minutes of the video is when he answers the "undisclosed" game model, 15:56(ish) seconds in.

 

  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

5/22/13 1:57:17 PM#198
We've all been playing the same mmo since 2004 give or take a few gimmicks, no mmo in 2013 is worth a monthly sub.
  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2940

5/22/13 2:10:46 PM#199
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by Isaelyn

From my point of view the real problem with subscription based games at this point is the sense of "obligation" that comes with paying that sub, in that sense that once it's payed any free time you spend NOT playing that game feels like money wasted. What this creates is an environment where every sub game is directly competing against every other sub game in a way that's make or break because most people ( in my opinion ) will only choose one or the other. Your game has to be without a doubt better in every possible way because that little payment obligation dictates that there can be only one, creating a metaphysical game of mmo-highlander. 

I have a subscription to Netflix and don't feel like I have to watch movies every night to get my money worth from it so why is a game sub different?

Yea F2P/B2P does have the advantage of being able to drop in and out of the game whenever you like but I have yet to play one that had anything resembling a game system I would want to stay around more than a month or two for so that;s a good thing.

My personal opinion is that F2P and B2P MMO's make great short term distractions that you can do whenever you feel like where a SUB game done right is a virtual 2nd home that you can retreat to after a long days work.  It's a subtle difference but a important one and one that I have found myself missing.

I don't know about anyone else but I have never played a F2P or B2P MMO a fraction of a precent as many hours as I have put into a sub based game.  They just don't have the depth or compelling content to hold my interest that long.  Part of it is community but also I think part of it is design.  F2P and B2P games are designed to suck as much money out of as many players as quickly as possible before they get bored and move on where sub games done right are designed to keep people playing the game for years.

I really hope Wildstar is a Sub game done right.

Absolutely 100% agree with that last paragraph.

 

It's been a long time since I could "settle down" in an MMO and enjoy a rich game experience to the full.

I'm really hoping Wildstar delivers...

  Eir_S

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4701

GW2 socialist.

5/22/13 2:13:29 PM#200
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

I'll sure not sub anything anymore with market filled with A+++ f2p. GW2 was my last lesson...

Huh?

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