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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Our Games, Our Money, Our Morality.

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115 posts found
  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1917

5/19/13 12:34:39 PM#81
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Drakynn

OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

 

It's true there is a lot of socialism = communism floating around here but "no" they are not trained that "a free market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporation will take care of them because the free market works that way". That was never once "taught in schools".

It's just those who want to get the maximum out of the system who try to push that agenda.

It may not be taught at schools but it's a view that is pushed politically by certain parties and has been bought into by a sizeable part of the population over the last century.This,political corruption,the birth of the short term stock exchange and a general attitude of complacency and laziness on consumers part has lead IMO to the "free market"  being lopsided in favor of big business now now.

 

Did you read Sovraths earlier post about the nature of big business and the common fallacies as to it being evil and self interested? I guess not.

I don't see what his posts have to do with it.A Free market lopsided toward one economic force is not healthy.Big Business in itself is not inherently evil but if not kept in check by opposing market forces and kept in balance leads to bad things.

 

Thats applies moreso to Governments as they hold more power than any corporation can ever dream of.

That would be true if Corporations remained apolitical and politicians incorruptible neither of which will ever be true.Also Corporations especially Multinational ones wield lots of political power through influence.Government oversight is supposed to be part of what maintains a free market as is consumer activism both of which are failing right now.

I would agree that  business as a market force should try to maximize their profits that is their role,however I do not agree that they should be allowed to do so amorally or without limits.

 

I'm interested in how Government oversight and consumer activism are failing? or is this another fallacy in regards to big business. Companies have collaspsed under the weight of their own hubris to the fact that big Banks, Insurance companies and financial firms had to be propped up by the Government or let collapse. Isn't that a free market righting itself when abused?

No, that was tax payer money bailing out the cheaters.  The market self correcting would have been every single one of those bankers and hedge funders going out of business and into prison.

  Demalis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/13
Posts: 134

5/19/13 12:35:40 PM#82
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Demalis

Originally posted by lizardbones  







I don't think you are in danger of getting banned just by posting in this thread, plus you're not insulting people, calling them out by name or anything of the kind. I wouldn't sweat it too much. Unless you don't think the discussion will be fun, which seems entirely possible. :-)

 

I hope you are right, I am pretty new to forum pvp. I have deleted three replies and a pm in fear of getting banned.  In all honesty I feel sort of responsible for this whole discussion from one of my first replies using the term "capitalist drones" and felt compelled to comment on this post.

@Damonville BC rules, but the conclusion that professor came to reminds me more off Orwell's 2+2=5 equation more than anything. Just imagine a system where the grades you got in school reflected how far you could advance in your career. F= entry level, and an a = ceo or your own business. Impossible to test this theory out, but I am curious to the results.

I am living in Alberta, and I miss BC so much, lol probably the reason why these quantityvrsquality arguments always grab my attention.

@Drakynn Thanks for putting it into words, that pretty much sums it up. I have my doubts about the free to play model as it is slowly consuming the genre, and it looks deceitful to me.

@lizardbones thanks for bringing me back.

edit:  @Maplestone, wow just wow. My brain is old and foggy, and I have a hard time getting my thoughts and words to make their way to paper properly.

  Destai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 496

5/19/13 12:36:24 PM#83
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?

Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

I'd honestly like to see more socialism in our games (Making the games devs themselves want to play, funded by crowds of gamers who like the idea), and less capitalism (WoW clones, boring pieces of crap, free 2 play vampirism).

I also don't understand people's backwards-logic defending companies, simply because they are "in the business to make money, not video games."

I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

Does no one have integrity or a sense of morality anymore? An idealogy that confirms the need for developers to get payed, but NOT at the expense of awful shitty products? Is the Almighty Dollar worshiped by many here as God, truly important enough to defend companies when they act out of a false idea of self-preservation (that is not preservation, it is simply overindulgent greed) instead of shun these companies for surrendering to greed watering down OUR games?

After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

You're misunderstanding what capitalism is. Essentially, capitalism is where the means of the production are owned privately. That does not dictate how a venture is funded. The market economy is the conduit for the electricity of capitalism. It can also be used in more market-oriented socialist systems. Furthermore, Kickstarter is capitalism at its finest. It's the market using the democratic power of the dollar to determine if a game should even be made. That does not give the players ownership of the game or its intellectual property. 

Second, f2p is what the market has given us. Don't like it, don't support it. Campaign against it. Do what I do and rail against every shitty title that can't bother to name their classes something understandable. If you have a socialist model, you wouldn't be able to do that. Games would be politicized. 

Third, I have a strong sense of morality. Capitalism and the market economy are moral institutions when you participate in them. I don't buy games that shaft their customers, I don't buy games that encourage gambling. I buy games that make a product worth playing. 

 

Current MMOs: Wildstar, Guild Wars 2, the Secret World, World of Warcraft

Past Loves: Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

5/19/13 12:45:11 PM#84
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Drakynn

OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

 

It's true there is a lot of socialism = communism floating around here but "no" they are not trained that "a free market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporation will take care of them because the free market works that way". That was never once "taught in schools".

It's just those who want to get the maximum out of the system who try to push that agenda.

It may not be taught at schools but it's a view that is pushed politically by certain parties and has been bought into by a sizeable part of the population over the last century.This,political corruption,the birth of the short term stock exchange and a general attitude of complacency and laziness on consumers part has lead IMO to the "free market"  being lopsided in favor of big business now now.

 

Did you read Sovraths earlier post about the nature of big business and the common fallacies as to it being evil and self interested? I guess not.

I don't see what his posts have to do with it.A Free market lopsided toward one economic force is not healthy.Big Business in itself is not inherently evil but if not kept in check by opposing market forces and kept in balance leads to bad things.

 

Thats applies moreso to Governments as they hold more power than any corporation can ever dream of.

That would be true if Corporations remained apolitical and politicians incorruptible neither of which will ever be true.Also Corporations especially Multinational ones wield lots of political power through influence.Government oversight is supposed to be part of what maintains a free market as is consumer activism both of which are failing right now.

I would agree that  business as a market force should try to maximize their profits that is their role,however I do not agree that they should be allowed to do so amorally or without limits.

 

I'm interested in how Government oversight and consumer activism are failing? or is this another fallacy in regards to big business. Companies have collaspsed under the weight of their own hubris to the fact that big Banks, Insurance companies and financial firms had to be propped up by the Government or let collapse. Isn't that a free market righting itself when abused?

Consumer Activism is failing because though you always see big stinks on the net about things that hardly ever translates to speaking with their wallets.Also consumers when it comes to spending(Which is their market force) shouldn't care about Business' profits they should only care about getting the best bang for their buck.What should set price is the meeting of that with business trying to max their profit margins.

But right now unlike previous items in the past,a large part of the consumer base isn't trying to maximize their bang for buck and instead rationalizes doing nothing or spending more by siding with big business or  saying one thing with their mouths/typing and doing the complete opposite with their wallets.

Oversight is clearly failing because your examples should of never been able to get to the state where they collapsed in the first place.If you think such collapses are good for the economy or that government bail outs are good either I do not know what to tell you.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17242

5/19/13 12:46:37 PM#85
Originally posted by Drakynn
 

I don't see what his posts have to do with it.A Free market lopsided toward one economic force is not healthy.Big Business in itself is not inherently evil but if not kept in check by opposing market forces and kept in balance leads to bad things.

I wouldn't disagree.

But we've seen abuses on both sides of the spectrum.

Oversight is necessary. The question is how much. Too much and nothing gets done or invention gets stymied. Not enough and people take advantage.

Capitalism isn't necessarily evil or bad and neither is socialism. I believe in both but sort of cherry picked for their best qualities.

Still, if people actually tried not to "not be evil" (to use google's little mantra - which was later thought to be a poor choice using the world "evil" as it's not defined) either one might have a better chance of working.

I look at both as powerful component's of humanity. We as humans are just driven to succeed and be rewarded and we as humans are capable of great compassion and a sense of social "right".

We just have problems with individuals who want to see what they can get away with. Absolutely no system is "fool proof" because we humans are the fools. At times.

  Cochran1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 460

"Fish can't sit down cause they got no laps!!"

5/19/13 12:47:17 PM#86

Kickstarter doesn't equal socialism. For that to be true the projects would have to be under some form of social ownership meaning the collective that contributes would be entitled to an equal share of the project itself and any profits that come from it. It's actually closer to preemptive consumerism since the backers only really get a chance to receive a product or service from the project. In some cases they're only allowed to purchase the product or service after the project is completed. 

vizzledrix Xfire Miniprofile
  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/19/13 1:09:21 PM#87
Originally posted by Calerxes

You mean like Mark Shuttleworth, Canonical and Ubuntu?

Yes, an excellent example of what I imagined.

( I couldn't in clear conscience recommend a game endowment over any number of potential humanitarian projects such a person could embrace, but if you have enough multi-multi-millionaires trying to figure out what to do with themselves, you're eventually going to start to see some start funding hobbies just because, well, it's their money and hobbies are fun )

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3808

5/19/13 1:23:49 PM#88

Interesting thread. Considering only 1/3 of the world even has access to the Internet, and only a fraction of that third play MMOs, and an even smaller fraction of MMO players hang out at The Pub on a Sunday... I wonder which economic system would be most popular here?

Go ahead...take a guess.

 

That said.... KS socialist? Lol. Only a bored, spoiled, affluent MMOer with a belly full of Cheetos and pop could even come up with that one.

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

5/19/13 1:24:30 PM#89

The central issue of the OP was that game publishers are companies and they're in the business of making money, not making good games—and that's terrible. We can address this without getting baited into politics.

How long do you think it would take to make a perfect MMO? If you answered anything other than "Infinity squared, and then some", you don't know much about software development. You'll never hit perfect. In fact, even without worrying about implementation, you can't even design a perfect MMO. Anytime you say "okay, finished", are you really saying that if you had another month or another year to sit there designing it, you couldn't make it even a teensy bit better?

It is super easy to say "Game X was released in terrible shape because they cut corners and didn't want to spend the amount of time and money it would have taken to fully develop the game." But the stone cold truth is that no game is ever fully developed. Without someone to say "This game is done as of this date" or "This game is done as soon as this and this are fixed and this and that are finished", no game would get finished. There's no way we'd have a better caliber of games if publishers just said "We'll keep throwing money at it for as long as it takes for the game to be completely done and perfect." We wouldn't have any games at all.

This is especially true when you consider just how huge games are now. If you go back to the NES, for example, the games were only a few hundred kilobytes at most. There was an unsurpassable limit imposed upon developers. You couldn't add any more sprites, any more levels, any more music, any more text. You could (very quickly) reach the physical limit of what the game cartridge's ROM chip would hold. That's not true anymore. If you're creating an MMO and decide to add in one more quest, one more dungeon, one more continent, you're never going to hit a limit where nothing else can be added.

  Theodwulf

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/01/12
Posts: 207

5/19/13 1:55:11 PM#90

 For a minute I thought i stumbled on some left wing wackery site  like the Daily-kos.

 

   A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

 

Is socialism better?  Kickstarter isn't socialism , it has NOTHING to do with government. If anything it is an extension of capitalism.   A group of people decide to use their resources together to make a good or service. All involved chose to do this, they didn't need to be compelled by the police powers of government.  What is a corporation but a group of people that have chosen to combine their resources to provide some good or service. Some corporations work for profit, to grow their money, or protect their assets.

 

  In other words you are clueless on a great many things. Lay off the reefer! 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19849

5/19/13 2:22:13 PM#91
Originally posted by Disatisfied9

After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

You are describing capitalism right here.

In fact, the free market is great. I have not paid for a single game that is not fun. Why? Because i have choices, and there are also f2p games that i pay nothing to play.

 

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

5/19/13 2:22:13 PM#92
Originally posted by free2play
Crowd sourcing is about as Capitalist as it gets. You pull stuff like that in China they would seize the assets.

Not only that, but it doesn't guarantee you get the product you want, just because you threw in a couple of bucks.  Once the developer has your money, no matter what they promised, they can produce any kind of game they want and you have no say over what is actually released.

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  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/19/13 2:25:28 PM#93
Originally posted by Theodwulf

  In other words you are clueless on a great many things.

There are two basic paths a person can take when you enter a forum: they can try to understand and communicate, or they can pick up any stray words they find laying around and swing them about like a club.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19849

5/19/13 2:25:28 PM#94
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by free2play
Crowd sourcing is about as Capitalist as it gets. You pull stuff like that in China they would seize the assets.

Not only that, but it doesn't guarantee you get the product you want, just because you threw in a couple of bucks.  Once the developer has your money, no matter what they promised, they can produce any kind of game they want and you have no say over what is actually released.

Plus, the current market is working fine. You don't have to spend a single penny on games you don't like.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

5/19/13 2:33:26 PM#95
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by free2play
Crowd sourcing is about as Capitalist as it gets. You pull stuff like that in China they would seize the assets.

Not only that, but it doesn't guarantee you get the product you want, just because you threw in a couple of bucks.  Once the developer has your money, no matter what they promised, they can produce any kind of game they want and you have no say over what is actually released.

Plus, the current market is working fine. You don't have to spend a single penny on games you don't like.

Plus, it was just trolling, 10 pages later and the OP has never come back.

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  BlueTiger33

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/13
Posts: 169

5/19/13 2:40:57 PM#96

AKA, "our ability to be freeloaders." Companies are realizing (as they should) freeps (f2p'ers) are disposable gamers. Get that shiney while you can!

 

I knew it was going to come to this eventually. Rather then sub, there would be nickel and dime shops. Either way I pray that no single person anywhere can freeload all the way through an MMO ever. If so, they the game publishers, are contributing to whatever sort of entitlement or lack of income of it's gamers. If those with less think their dollars are worth more then mine...then give me a distinct advantage over them.


I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
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  Attend4455

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 166

5/19/13 2:58:26 PM#97
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?

Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

I'd honestly like to see more socialism in our games (Making the games devs themselves want to play, funded by crowds of gamers who like the idea), and less capitalism (WoW clones, boring pieces of crap, free 2 play vampirism).

I also don't understand people's backwards-logic defending companies, simply because they are "in the business to make money, not video games."

I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

Does no one have integrity or a sense of morality anymore? An idealogy that confirms the need for developers to get payed, but NOT at the expense of awful shitty products? Is the Almighty Dollar worshiped by many here as God, truly important enough to defend companies when they act out of a false idea of self-preservation (that is not preservation, it is simply overindulgent greed) instead of shun these companies for surrendering to greed watering down OUR games?

After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

I agree with you OP, you should start a nice socialistic game that is awesome and F2P so we can all play it. Thanks

BTW what's an idealogy?

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12319

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

5/19/13 3:14:59 PM#98
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Theodwulf

  In other words you are clueless on a great many things.

There are two basic paths a person can take when you enter a forum: they can try to understand and communicate, or they can pick up any stray words they find laying around and swing them about like a club.

 



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  Sybnal

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/04
Posts: 260

5/19/13 4:12:23 PM#99
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Sybnal
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by Disatisfied9

I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

That really made me laugh. It is totally ABSURD to think that a company, in an effort to make more money, would intentionally put out an inferior product. Pretty dumb to think that, you explain to me how that makes sense in ANY way shape or form.

Let's forget about the OP for a second, his post is silly anyway. 

 

Companies make inferior products for profit all the time. You've never heard of the phrase planned obsolescence I take it?  Our whole economy is based on making shit products. We live in a world with the technology to make a fridge that would last a thousand years and run off sunlight.  Yet, for some reason, your fridge will break after 10 years and it runs off a grid powered by coal and nuclear energy. You're right, it is absurd.   But profitable.  You can buy "generic" or no name versions of pretty much anything that are half the price and break twice as fast.  There are whole industries based on making inferior products for profit. 

 

If you want an MMO example, Cryptic is perfect.  They put out games 1/4 of the size  of their competitors, with half the development time and cost.   They arn't nearly as good as most games that come out, but they are producing more of them for less money.  They are intentionally making an inferior product compared  to their competitors, for profit. 

 

So how would the world economy work when everybody buys 1 car, 1 fridge, 1 kettle, 1 cooker, 1 toaster? and when I die I basically give that to my kids and then they give it to their kids and so on. It not that simple and where is your proof that we can make these everlasting product of super high quality for sensible prices? If you cannot see the difference in quality from a Toyota to a Ford then you really are not looking properly.

 

 

Oh! and guys the OP is female.

Well, that's the point isn't it?  A capitalist system wouldn't function if we weren't buying new products constantly.  It depends on planned obsolescence, if people arn't buying their new fridges/kettles/toasters and land filling their old ones every decade then the economy crashes.  We are literally just existing to create mountains of garbage right now.  What's worse is everyone thinks that they NEED to buy new shit all the time. It's the way the economy works. It depends on infinite growth and higher profits that eventually get funneled to a very small percentage of the population. 

It's worked for us great so far, but, It doesn't take a genius to see that it isn't going to be a sustainable system for much longer.   It's not even a realistic system NOW,  it's gutting our resources at a frightening rate, filling the oceans and land with plastic and trash, polluting the air, melting our freaking ice caps and who knows what else.   People and society arn't making smart decisions about the way we live on the planet, they are making profitable ones.  

As for the fridge example , did you know that Einstein designed a refrigeration system with no moving parts that would last 100 years and patented it in 1930?   That was with pre-ww2 tech.  Hell, the beer fridge in my garage is from the 50's, still working....., build like a TANK.  Finland is building a nuclear waste containment facility designed to last 100,000 years right now.  Believe me, we can build things to last if we want to.

 

Oh and the OP being female really has nothing to do with nothin'

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1659

5/19/13 5:38:27 PM#100
Originally posted by Sybnal
Originally posted by Calerxes
SNIP

Well, that's the point isn't it?  A capitalist system wouldn't function if we weren't buying new products constantly.  It depends on planned obsolescence, if people arn't buying their new fridges/kettles/toasters and land filling their old ones every decade then the economy crashes.  We are literally just existing to create mountains of garbage right now.  What's worse is everyone thinks that they NEED to buy new shit all the time. It's the way the economy works. It depends on infinite growth and higher profits that eventually get funneled to a very small percentage of the population. 

It's worked for us great so far, but, It doesn't take a genius to see that it isn't going to be a sustainable system for much longer.   It's not even a realistic system NOW,  it's gutting our resources at a frightening rate, filling the oceans and land with plastic and trash, polluting the air, melting our freaking ice caps and who knows what else.   People and society arn't making smart decisions about the way we live on the planet, they are making profitable ones.  

As for the fridge example , did you know that Einstein designed a refrigeration system with no moving parts that would last 100 years and patented it in 1930?   That was with pre-ww2 tech.  Hell, the beer fridge in my garage is from the 50's, still working....., build like a TANK.  Finland is building a nuclear waste containment facility designed to last 100,000 years right now.  Believe me, we can build things to last if we want to.

 

Oh and the OP being female really has nothing to do with nothin'

 

My God do you live in the 1970's or something? most electrical products are now recycled and disposed of ecologically under the weee directive in the UK.

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/topics/waste/139283.aspx

 

Cars are being built in such a way that they can be dismantled safe and ecologically. You are spouting outdated rhetoric from a bygone era. The future is cleaner fuels, more recycling of materials, better more efficient energy usage, energy efficient housing and workplaces. I personally recycle 75% of my household waste and I'm looking for ways to recycle the rest, mainly food waste, I've been doing this for 13 years, there are many other things happening as well like lead free solder in all electrical goods. Thes system is working Its called evolution and progress, maybe you should read up on it sometime.

 

Knowing the sex of the poster you are responding to is just a matter of respect when you are responding instead of assuming all gamers are males and calling them He all the time, we have many female gamers and posters on MMORPG.com.

 

 

 

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