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News & Features Discussion  » Defiance: Trion Rocked by Layoffs

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121 posts found
  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4527

5/19/13 7:54:47 AM#101

what MMO has done this before - none, Defiance did a lot of firsts from a technical and development perspective that caused an aggressive hiring cycle

1. Hard launch date

2. Cowritten with a TV series

3. Developed and launched on 3 platforms simultaneously

Ask any dev studio if these factors would require additional staff. The possibility of any studio keeping the highly inflated "get it out the door" staff for a long time after launch is zero.

 

  orbitxo

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/06
Posts: 1100

5/19/13 10:11:11 AM#102
if it was grossly exaggerated they should of given a close percentage on their statement.
it's a sad day in defiance.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/19/13 10:32:27 AM#103


Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Originally posted by Ikeda

Originally posted by waynejr2  Do you think facts will change their thinking?  I
Nope... and in most of their cases they instantly belittle me with the nit picks of the specifics of each situation.  Oh it was just customer service, oh it was just this, oh that wasn't exactly a month after launch.... etc, etc. And to the person above who claimed that half of those games had successful launches is just as deluded.  As someone who experienced the WoW launch first hand, heads rolled over that. Then I post an article with actual 2012 numbers and that isn't enough. People, feel free to move to Iran... they re-write history there every day. I read somewhere that Bill Nigh got boo'd out of a Texas college because he said the moon merely reflected the sun and the insinuation that the Bible was not completely accurate.  Regardless of the fact that people HAVE been to the moon, the moon does NOT in fact produce it's own light, and this person had the GALL to point out these obvious facts to the crowd.
Actual 2012 numbers where you are comparing layoffs of 8 to 9 years old games with one that is barely a month old.

So much for your facts. Your comparisons would make more sense if all other games were hit by lay offs just a months after the initial release.

Twisting the facts is what all you did to make a point here. And i am still waiting for you to answer me why Anet didn't lay off anyone if it is a standard? since both Defiance and GW2 follow same model and plan to release regular content updates.

Can you give example of any successful MMO where people were laid off within first 2 months?




Trion runs more than one game. The announcement of Rift's shift to a F2P model, these layoffs and Defiance's release were very close together. Not to mention the MMORTS that didn't get off the ground. None of these things are isolated.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Blindchance

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/09
Posts: 1079

5/19/13 12:30:46 PM#104

It's sad to hear that people are losing jobs, even in the industry where poor working conditions and job instability are legendary.

With all fairness, Defiance is a flop. No wonder as the game is generic at best.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3028

5/19/13 12:34:03 PM#105
Originally posted by tkreep
they took ma job!!

DERKA DURRRR!

Best Game Ever? Highest game rated on Metacritic!

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

5/19/13 12:45:48 PM#106
Guys this and f2p for rift is not a coincidence.


  Daranar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/11
Posts: 164

5/19/13 2:23:11 PM#107
Why is this still news?  Happens to every MMO since the days of EQ.  Once systems are developed, you only need a fraction of man-power to release expansions.   This is why game developers need a union.  Now they have to search for new jobs, change health care providers, etc..

If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

5/19/13 5:07:08 PM#108
Originally posted by Daranar
Why is this still news?  Happens to every MMO since the days of EQ.  Once systems are developed, you only need a fraction of man-power to release expansions.   This is why game developers need a union.  Now they have to search for new jobs, change health care providers, etc..

Ok, if this has happened to every MMO since EQ you should be able to find news about layoffs within the first 3 months for the following releases:

 

Everquest (vanilla)

Ruins of Kunark

Scars of Velious

Shadows of Luclin

Planes of Power

Gates of Discord

Omens of War

 

World of Warcraft (vanilla)

Burning Crusade

WOTLK

Cataclysm

Mists of Pandaria (this one was a very recent release, should be super easy to find news since this happens to all releases, right?)

 

LOTRO (Vanilla)

Mines of Moria

 

EvE Online

 

Everquest 2 (Vanilla)

Desert of Flames

Kingdom of Sky

 

Guild Wars 2

 

 

Rift (Vanilla)

 

 

Now the EQ games maybe you could say were too long ago to find articles.  but everything else should be no problem.  If this is business as usual i would imagine youd be able to find articles for half of these within 5 minutes.

 

Ill be waiting for those links...

 

 

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4527

5/19/13 6:13:49 PM#109
It is business as usual given the circumstances in my post above. Stop and think about it for a second, makes perfect sense. Defiance launch was pretty unique and unlike other titles.
  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3249

Poacher killer.

5/19/13 6:40:36 PM#110
Originally posted by Kuppa
Guys this and f2p for rift is not a coincidence.

For many, the sand is tempting to the head ;)

It sucks what's happening to Trion and it sucks for the people that are enjoying their games, but it should be pretty clear what's going on at the moment.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

5/19/13 6:45:37 PM#111
Originally posted by DMKano
It is business as usual given the circumstances in my post above. Stop and think about it for a second, makes perfect sense. Defiance launch was pretty unique and unlike other titles.
 

You know what else makes sense?  How every single MMORPG layoff announcement that I have ever seen has come at a time where either a company or a title is performing poorly.  And Defiance definitely was a poorly received game and Trion has had issues with the EoN debacle and declining Rift subs (this isnt their first series of layoffs).  But hey, if you want to ignore the obvious reasons and stick to the one you desperately want it to be, go ahead.  Nearly all layoff announcements coincide with poor performance.  However there are quite a few layoff announcements that arent within 3 months after a release (see Mythic 2007, Blizzard 2012, most SoE layoffs, etc)

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

5/19/13 6:48:04 PM#112
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by Kuppa
Guys this and f2p for rift is not a coincidence.

For many, the sand is tempting to the head ;)

It sucks what's happening to Trion and it sucks for the people that are enjoying their games, but it should be pretty clear what's going on at the moment.

 

The devs have said Rift f2p was planned before SL release.  The Rift f2p is unrelated.

The company obviously has its issues, this is what happens when a new company over extends itself.

  tkoreaper

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 406

5/19/13 8:31:40 PM#113

Anet never did any layoffs??? You should at least do some research before assuming something that you "think" you know. Just because some layoffs are more public than others it doesn't make them larger. You think construction workers are kept around the building they built and used as maintenance? This is common work procedure... You pay for something, you get the product.

Everyone that was used to make a game doesn't need to be kept around. 

  tkoreaper

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 406

5/19/13 8:41:03 PM#114
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by DMKano
It is business as usual given the circumstances in my post above. Stop and think about it for a second, makes perfect sense. Defiance launch was pretty unique and unlike other titles.
 

You know what else makes sense?  How every single MMORPG layoff announcement that I have ever seen has come at a time where either a company or a title is performing poorly.  And Defiance definitely was a poorly received game and Trion has had issues with the EoN debacle and declining Rift subs (this isnt their first series of layoffs).  But hey, if you want to ignore the obvious reasons and stick to the one you desperately want it to be, go ahead.  Nearly all layoff announcements coincide with poor performance.  However there are quite a few layoff announcements that arent within 3 months after a release (see Mythic 2007, Blizzard 2012, most SoE layoffs, etc)

Do you hear of layoffs from the smaller, less known, developers? No, you really don't cause there's not enough people to care... There's no "story". If the same thing happens to the bigger names it becomes public rather quick regardless of the severity of the layoffs. Your point would be valid if your points weren't so baseless. Show me the data proving your points and I'll retract my argument. This is just your typical hollywood-type drama.

SOE did a pretty massive layoff a while back and it wasn't due to any type of struggling... Are they hurting? I highly doubt it... they're making a killing off of Planetside 2 right now and soon EQ3. 

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

5/19/13 9:38:02 PM#115
Originally posted by tkoreaper

Anet never did any layoffs??? You should at least do some research before assuming something that you "think" you know. Just because some layoffs are more public than others it doesn't make them larger. You think construction workers are kept around the building they built and used as maintenance? This is common work procedure... You pay for something, you get the product.

Everyone that was used to make a game doesn't need to be kept around. 

Someone who is hired to do a specific task (construction worker) that finishes his task and moves on is not laid off.

When you see news about layoffs they are *not* talking about temps or contract workers or any of that.  Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

5/19/13 9:55:38 PM#116
Originally posted by tkoreaper
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by DMKano
It is business as usual given the circumstances in my post above. Stop and think about it for a second, makes perfect sense. Defiance launch was pretty unique and unlike other titles.
 

You know what else makes sense?  How every single MMORPG layoff announcement that I have ever seen has come at a time where either a company or a title is performing poorly.  And Defiance definitely was a poorly received game and Trion has had issues with the EoN debacle and declining Rift subs (this isnt their first series of layoffs).  But hey, if you want to ignore the obvious reasons and stick to the one you desperately want it to be, go ahead.  Nearly all layoff announcements coincide with poor performance.  However there are quite a few layoff announcements that arent within 3 months after a release (see Mythic 2007, Blizzard 2012, most SoE layoffs, etc)

Do you hear of layoffs from the smaller, less known, developers? No, you really don't cause there's not enough people to care... There's no "story". If the same thing happens to the bigger names it becomes public rather quick regardless of the severity of the layoffs. Your point would be valid if your points weren't so baseless. Show me the data proving your points and I'll retract my argument. This is just your typical hollywood-type drama.

SOE did a pretty massive layoff a while back and it wasn't due to any type of struggling... Are they hurting? I highly doubt it... they're making a killing off of Planetside 2 right now and soon EQ3. 

The games I listed are all from the major players in the industry.  Especially Blizzard.  And asking me to prove something like WoW never having post release layoffs is kind of moronic, because of course I can't prove it, people dont write articles "3 months after MoP and still no layoffs!"  however, since as people claim every game does layoffs after releases and Blizzard is scrutinized heavily it should be rather easy to disprove me if I were wrong.  

And SoE is an obvious example of a poorly performing company having layoffs.  In 2011, after their most expensive game ever (DCUO) was a giant flop they laid off 205 employees across three different studios, and cancelled a game that was far along in development.  Look at whats happened since 2004:  EQ2, nowhere near as successful as expected.  EQ1 subs plummet.  SWG gets NGE'd and subs drop from 250k to 50k basically overnight.  They spend 2 years and millions and millions of dollars fixing vg but no one comes back to play it.  DCUO is an epic flop.  SWG closes down.  Now the eq2 and dcuo f2ps have done well for them lately, but SoE hasnt had a hit since 2004 and its been a long steady stream of disappointments.  Oh, and the parent company has been sucking too.

  tkoreaper

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 406

5/19/13 10:09:47 PM#117
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by tkoreaper
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by DMKano
It is business as usual given the circumstances in my post above. Stop and think about it for a second, makes perfect sense. Defiance launch was pretty unique and unlike other titles.
 

You know what else makes sense?  How every single MMORPG layoff announcement that I have ever seen has come at a time where either a company or a title is performing poorly.  And Defiance definitely was a poorly received game and Trion has had issues with the EoN debacle and declining Rift subs (this isnt their first series of layoffs).  But hey, if you want to ignore the obvious reasons and stick to the one you desperately want it to be, go ahead.  Nearly all layoff announcements coincide with poor performance.  However there are quite a few layoff announcements that arent within 3 months after a release (see Mythic 2007, Blizzard 2012, most SoE layoffs, etc)

Do you hear of layoffs from the smaller, less known, developers? No, you really don't cause there's not enough people to care... There's no "story". If the same thing happens to the bigger names it becomes public rather quick regardless of the severity of the layoffs. Your point would be valid if your points weren't so baseless. Show me the data proving your points and I'll retract my argument. This is just your typical hollywood-type drama.

SOE did a pretty massive layoff a while back and it wasn't due to any type of struggling... Are they hurting? I highly doubt it... they're making a killing off of Planetside 2 right now and soon EQ3. 

The games I listed are all from the major players in the industry.  Especially Blizzard.  And asking me to prove something like WoW never having post release layoffs is kind of moronic, because of course I can't prove it, people dont write articles "3 months after MoP and still no layoffs!"  however, since as people claim every game does layoffs after releases and Blizzard is scrutinized heavily it should be rather easy to disprove me if I were wrong.  

And SoE is an obvious example of a poorly performing company having layoffs.  In 2011, after their most expensive game ever (DCUO) was a giant flop they laid off 205 employees across three different studios, and cancelled a game that was far along in development.  Look at whats happened since 2004:  EQ2, nowhere near as successful as expected.  EQ1 subs plummet.  SWG gets NGE'd and subs drop from 250k to 50k basically overnight.  They spend 2 years and millions and millions of dollars fixing vg but no one comes back to play it.  DCUO is an epic flop.  SWG closes down.  Now the eq2 and dcuo f2ps have done well for them lately, but SoE hasnt had a hit since 2004 and its been a long steady stream of disappointments.  Oh, and the parent company has been sucking too.

The points I wanted you to prove was how "poorly" these companies/games are doing. You are going off nothing more than pure speculation. SOE has made mistakes, which the CEO has admitted to, but what company never does? The way they've been going lately shows them heading in a completely different direction which I guess is why you didn't mention PS2.

  tkoreaper

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 406

5/19/13 10:18:10 PM#118
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by tkoreaper

Anet never did any layoffs??? You should at least do some research before assuming something that you "think" you know. Just because some layoffs are more public than others it doesn't make them larger. You think construction workers are kept around the building they built and used as maintenance? This is common work procedure... You pay for something, you get the product.

Everyone that was used to make a game doesn't need to be kept around. 

Someone who is hired to do a specific task (construction worker) that finishes his task and moves on is not laid off.

When you see news about layoffs they are *not* talking about temps or contract workers or any of that.  Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

If the company has no place for them they WILL lay off... Just as I was in 2008 as a CONSTRUCTION WORKER. We finished a project and they had no other, or new, project to send us to and I had been with them for over 5 years on multiple projects in different locations... But this is beside the point.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

5/19/13 10:21:35 PM#119
Originally posted by tkoreaper

The points I wanted you to prove was how "poorly" these companies/games are doing. You are going off nothing more than pure speculation. SOE has made mistakes, which the CEO has admitted to, but what company never does? The way they've been going lately shows them heading in a completely different direction which I guess is why you didn't mention PS2.

The last SoE layoffs were 2011, PS2 was released in 2012.  There havent been large scale layoffs since its release

 

As for company poor performance, yes in many cases its speculation.  In the Rift layoffs though, we do know that Trion had to buyout EoN a week or two before the Rift layoffs, and we know that the what was once 60 NA servers had become 8.  We know SWTOR did not meet expectations and was bleeding subs fast.  DCUO is widely regarded as a failure.  Oh and the one time Blizzard did layoff WoW related people (its support staff) was a year after Cataclysm's launch and we know they lost over 1 million subs that year.  (And with 1 million less subs they wouldnt need as many support staff anyway)

 

  junzo316

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/19/07
Posts: 1681

5/20/13 12:52:14 AM#120
This does not bode well for Trion as a company.  The F2P shift and then this round of layoffs is a PR disaster.  Trion may have two games on the "Worst of" list next week.
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