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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Translating Eve to high fantasy.

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  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

5/17/13 8:07:55 PM#41


Originally posted by laokoko
I didn't know too much about Eve as I barely played it. 

But I always felt it is so much easier to expand Eve compare to other high fantasy game because of it being a space shooter and just the layout of the game artistically require less man power to expand the game.

I can't find the exact topic but another person talks about it in more detail. 

To me expanding the Eve universe is sort of like minecraft concept, easy to do, because all you do is use the basic building block to expand it.  Probably much harder to do in high fantasy, unless you expect all building to look the same.


If you go with continents and islands, expanding the gameworld is just as easy as adding regions to the EvE universe.

You people are really unimaginative, and I've allready laid out how EvE could be translated to high fantasy with all it's core-systems.

The problem isn't that it's not possible, the problem is that 99.9% of all devs and publishers outthere are just as unimaginative and simply don't have the balls to try something like it.

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1895

5/17/13 8:55:17 PM#42
Originally posted by Yalexy

 


Originally posted by laokoko
I didn't know too much about Eve as I barely played it. 

 

But I always felt it is so much easier to expand Eve compare to other high fantasy game because of it being a space shooter and just the layout of the game artistically require less man power to expand the game.

I can't find the exact topic but another person talks about it in more detail. 

To me expanding the Eve universe is sort of like minecraft concept, easy to do, because all you do is use the basic building block to expand it.  Probably much harder to do in high fantasy, unless you expect all building to look the same.

 


 

If you go with continents and islands, expanding the gameworld is just as easy as adding regions to the EvE universe.

You people are really unimaginative, and I've allready laid out how EvE could be translated to high fantasy with all it's core-systems.

The problem isn't that it's not possible, the problem is that 99.9% of all devs and publishers outthere are just as unimaginative and simply don't have the balls to try something like it.

You can always try to apply for a job as a game developer.  Or invest on your own money. 

That being said, you misunderstand me.  I mean the manpower need to creat the world probably cost more. 

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

5/17/13 10:20:51 PM#43


Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Yalexy  

Originally posted by laokoko I didn't know too much about Eve as I barely played it.    But I always felt it is so much easier to expand Eve compare to other high fantasy game because of it being a space shooter and just the layout of the game artistically require less man power to expand the game. I can't find the exact topic but another person talks about it in more detail.  To me expanding the Eve universe is sort of like minecraft concept, easy to do, because all you do is use the basic building block to expand it.  Probably much harder to do in high fantasy, unless you expect all building to look the same.  
  If you go with continents and islands, expanding the gameworld is just as easy as adding regions to the EvE universe. You people are really unimaginative, and I've allready laid out how EvE could be translated to high fantasy with all it's core-systems. The problem isn't that it's not possible, the problem is that 99.9% of all devs and publishers outthere are just as unimaginative and simply don't have the balls to try something like it.
You can always try to apply for a job as a game developer.  Or invest on your own money. 

That being said, you misunderstand me.  I mean the manpower need to creat the world probably cost more. 


I've allready got a job, which I love so I'd rather not change into a new field for the time being.

Anyways, for the manpower...

It's not really that complicated to design maps or static stuff like trees and buildings with the available tools. I'm doing a fair share of 3d-modelling myself and it isn't really that timeconsuming, when you're not aiming for hyperrealistic details.
Look at games like Unreal or the like, where players create lots of awesome maps with the available map-designers for some 20 years, which I did some 20 years back in school myself in DukeNukem rebuilding our school as a map :p
These tools make it really easy to build new stuff rather fast. The bugtesting usually takes longer then the modelling, but that's something the players can help with aswell on the testserver.

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1796

5/18/13 2:50:40 AM#44
Perpetuum Online tried using mech robots.  I haven't been keeping up on it but it was sitting at around 1K log in most of the time. It doesn't have the depth or diversity EVE has but the concepts are pretty much what the OP is suggesting.
  hfztt

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 615

5/18/13 3:22:12 AM#45

The secret of EVE is not unlike the secret of WoW. THye are not great be course of thier mechanics. They are great be course they are the games where you have the most likeminded people to play with.

Games like Perpetuum and Rift are mechanicly equivalent of the games they where inspired from. Some things they even do better.

So even if you made the perfect high fantasy copy of EVE it would be very likely to the same desolate wasteland that the latter games are.

  sunshadow21

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

5/18/13 3:35:15 AM#46
Originally posted by hfztt

The secret of EVE is not unlike the secret of WoW. THye are not great be course of thier mechanics. They are great be course they are the games where you have the most likeminded people to play with.

Games like Perpetuum and Rift are mechanicly equivalent of the games they where inspired from. Some things they even do better.

So even if you made the perfect high fantasy copy of EVE it would be very likely to the same desolate wasteland that the latter games are.

WoW and EVE are both successful because they pay attention to the details and make sure all the systems work together. No single system is going to be mind blowing, but the overall system works and works well for it's intended purpose. WoW may be reaching a functional breaking point to it's system, but it still works for it's original goals just fine. EVE is very similar; it has more flexibility and they've done a lot to remove the mechanical limitations, but a big part of success is that they had a vision and, for the most part, executed it quite well. That level of execution would certainly be needed to translate EVE into a fantasy game, but it's not impossible. It does require patience, however, which is in short supply in the MMO market these days.

  asdar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/05
Posts: 590

5/18/13 5:11:05 AM#47

I've gotta go back to Darkfall UW, even more than Darkfall the original. It's close in concept now. Safe zones, check, Skill progression, check, Free and important politics, check, FFA loot check, and now with classes it's a bit like the different ships so check on that. Instead of spewing hate for Darkfall you should point out some things that would need to change to make it more like Eve on land.

It's not exactly parallel, of course, but it's close. If you don't like Darkfall that's ok, it doesn't hurt my feelings, but it's a good starting point. If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve.

One of the things that I don't think is easy to translate is the variety of ships. It would have to be classes that translate and I'm not sure that would go over well. If you want to translate that would be the challenge. Figure out how each class of ship could be converted into a class of player. Eve did a very good job of interlinking all the ships so that they each had their place in battle.

Asdar

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

5/18/13 6:35:18 AM#48


Originally posted by asdar
I've gotta go back to Darkfall UW, even more than Darkfall the original. It's close in concept now. Safe zones, check, Skill progression, check, Free and important politics, check, FFA loot check, and now with classes it's a bit like the different ships so check on that. Instead of spewing hate for Darkfall you should point out some things that would need to change to make it more like Eve on land.

It's not exactly parallel, of course, but it's close. If you don't like Darkfall that's ok, it doesn't hurt my feelings, but it's a good starting point. If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve.

One of the things that I don't think is easy to translate is the variety of ships. It would have to be classes that translate and I'm not sure that would go over well. If you want to translate that would be the challenge. Figure out how each class of ship could be converted into a class of player. Eve did a very good job of interlinking all the ships so that they each had their place in battle.


If you want to make Darkfall into something like EvE, then you need to redo 90% of Darkfall.

Anyways, translating EvE into high-fantasy is no problem at all. Go back two pages and read how it's done.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

5/18/13 6:43:36 AM#49
Originally posted by asdar

 If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve...

...but with universal banks

     ...and no destruction of inventory on death

            ...and NPC crafted gear

                  ...and zero historical trade data or other market/contract support

                        ...and a completely different skill advancement system

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10557

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/18/13 6:51:05 AM#50


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by maplestone If I were attempting to do the translation, the core question is what assets are players putting at risk?   Eve revolves around its ships.  Players invest time and effort to create the ships, but every time they undock, they are risking those investments blowing up beneath them. What would be the high-fantasy equivalent?  Gear?  Mounts?  Magical auras?
Good question. Trinity is dependent on a defined and maximized set of roles. Gear replacement doesn't work well with that, so I'm interested in some of the alternatives that people come up with for where/how both loss and attrition would translate into a trinity-based MMO
Fortresses in Darkfall serve the purpose of ships in Eve, ya? So that's one way to do it. Other aspects would depend on how close you wanted to stick with the high fantasy schtick. Air ships could take the place of space ships, and they could co-exist with fortresses, but are not exactly high fantasy.  
Fortresses would be more akin to player-owned starbases (POS). Gear would be the equivalent of ships. How well do you think full loot and gear-dependent gameplay would go together? :)

 




It wouldn't, not if the gear were setup the way gear is setup in WoW. Full loot works because the items players lose are replaceable. You could do this with just gear, but it seems like large, mobile war machines that can double as housing would give players a larger money sink. It preserves the idea of cargo haulers from Eve, without needing to throw away the idea of lone warriors. It can be setup as part of a progression path as well. Players go from being on foot, then on foot in good gear to moving around in larger machines and then possibly joining an alliance with a fortress group. It can offer layers of combat. Fortress v War Machines v Armored Players v Merchants where each has strengths and weaknesses.

There would have to be advantages and disadvantages to each. Perhaps to be a focused or highly developed crafter, you must remain a foot soldier. Perhaps being a foot soldier or mounted soldier gives you the option of much more casual game play. Of course, there's no reason things would need to be that stratified either. Perhaps players could skip the armor grind, going straight for a mobile house, and use that as a base of operations for their crafting industry.

I should note that this is possibly driven by the fact that I like air ships, and have read a couple of stories about large, mobile cities roving the landscape cannibalizing smaller, slower cities. :-)

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  asdar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/05
Posts: 590

5/18/13 7:04:01 AM#51


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by asdar  If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve...
...but with universal banks

     ...and no destruction of inventory on death

            ...and NPC crafted gear

                  ...and zero historical trade data or other market/contract support

                        ...and a completely different skill advancement system

 


See, it wasn't so hard to evolve from Darkfall.

Is no destruction a bad thing? I like both systems, but I don't see that as a big difference in game.

NPC crafted gear is a bad thing in my opinion. Probably the best feature of Darkfall is that crafting is a vital part of the game. Just the same if you did have NPC crafters it wouldn't ruin Darkfall.

historical trade data and market/contract support isn't a defining feature of Eve in my opinion, but it's something that could be added to Darkfall without ruining the game.

Skill advancement is one area that I like Eve better, but it's not that big a stretch to have a game just like Darkfall but with some of the skill limits in Eve.

These differences you mention don't invalidate starting with Darkfall as a template and making changes, while starting with WoW would not be even possible. It's possible to translate Eve to high fantasy, just take Darkfall and tweak it a bit.

Asdar

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

5/18/13 7:19:32 AM#52
Originally posted by asdar

 


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by asdar  If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve...
...but with universal banks

     ...and no destruction of inventory on death

            ...and NPC crafted gear

                  ...and zero historical trade data or other market/contract support

                        ...and a completely different skill advancement system


 

See, it wasn't so hard to evolve from Darkfall.

Is no destruction a bad thing? I like both systems, but I don't see that as a big difference in game.

NPC crafted gear is a bad thing in my opinion. Probably the best feature of Darkfall is that crafting is a vital part of the game. Just the same if you did have NPC crafters it wouldn't ruin Darkfall.

historical trade data and market/contract support isn't a defining feature of Eve in my opinion, but it's something that could be added to Darkfall without ruining the game.

Skill advancement is one area that I like Eve better, but it's not that big a stretch to have a game just like Darkfall but with some of the skill limits in Eve.

These differences you mention don't invalidate starting with Darkfall as a template and making changes, while starting with WoW would not be even possible. It's possible to translate Eve to high fantasy, just take Darkfall and tweak it a bit.

Most of the features I listed are major components of the core gameplay of EVE Online. You don't seem to understand the importance of the economic gameplay of EVE and the role it plays in combat, politics and territorial control, which is why you feel you can "just take Darkfall and tweak it a bit" to achieve the same results.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

5/18/13 7:23:30 AM#53
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by maplestone If I were attempting to do the translation, the core question is what assets are players putting at risk?   Eve revolves around its ships.  Players invest time and effort to create the ships, but every time they undock, they are risking those investments blowing up beneath them. What would be the high-fantasy equivalent?  Gear?  Mounts?  Magical auras?
Good question. Trinity is dependent on a defined and maximized set of roles. Gear replacement doesn't work well with that, so I'm interested in some of the alternatives that people come up with for where/how both loss and attrition would translate into a trinity-based MMO
Fortresses in Darkfall serve the purpose of ships in Eve, ya? So that's one way to do it. Other aspects would depend on how close you wanted to stick with the high fantasy schtick. Air ships could take the place of space ships, and they could co-exist with fortresses, but are not exactly high fantasy.  
Fortresses would be more akin to player-owned starbases (POS). Gear would be the equivalent of ships. How well do you think full loot and gear-dependent gameplay would go together? :)


It wouldn't, not if the gear were setup the way gear is setup in WoW. Full loot works because the items players lose are replaceable. You could do this with just gear, but it seems like large, mobile war machines that can double as housing would give players a larger money sink. It preserves the idea of cargo haulers from Eve, without needing to throw away the idea of lone warriors. It can be setup as part of a progression path as well. Players go from being on foot, then on foot in good gear to moving around in larger machines and then possibly joining an alliance with a fortress group. It can offer layers of combat. Fortress v War Machines v Armored Players v Merchants where each has strengths and weaknesses.

There would have to be advantages and disadvantages to each. Perhaps to be a focused or highly developed crafter, you must remain a foot soldier. Perhaps being a foot soldier or mounted soldier gives you the option of much more casual game play. Of course, there's no reason things would need to be that stratified either. Perhaps players could skip the armor grind, going straight for a mobile house, and use that as a base of operations for their crafting industry.

I should note that this is possibly driven by the fact that I like air ships, and have read a couple of stories about large, mobile cities roving the landscape cannibalizing smaller, slower cities. :-)

 

What you describe may very well be an interesting game, but it is not like any incarnation of EVE that I have ever seen or played in my 10+ years of contact with the game.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  asdar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/05
Posts: 590

5/18/13 8:29:48 AM#54


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by asdar  

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by asdar  If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve...
...but with universal banks      ...and no destruction of inventory on death             ...and NPC crafted gear                   ...and zero historical trade data or other market/contract support                         ...and a completely different skill advancement system
  See, it wasn't so hard to evolve from Darkfall. Is no destruction a bad thing? I like both systems, but I don't see that as a big difference in game. NPC crafted gear is a bad thing in my opinion. Probably the best feature of Darkfall is that crafting is a vital part of the game. Just the same if you did have NPC crafters it wouldn't ruin Darkfall. historical trade data and market/contract support isn't a defining feature of Eve in my opinion, but it's something that could be added to Darkfall without ruining the game. Skill advancement is one area that I like Eve better, but it's not that big a stretch to have a game just like Darkfall but with some of the skill limits in Eve. These differences you mention don't invalidate starting with Darkfall as a template and making changes, while starting with WoW would not be even possible. It's possible to translate Eve to high fantasy, just take Darkfall and tweak it a bit.
Most of the features I listed are major components of the core gameplay of EVE Online. You don't seem to understand the importance of the economic gameplay of EVE and the role it plays in combat, politics and territorial control, which is why you feel you can "just take Darkfall and tweak it a bit" to achieve the same results.

I've played Eve, and I get that you love Eve, if you'd pay attention you'd see that I like it too.

The reason I don't play Eve is because I want a real person to play and not a ship. I think it can be done or at least something close can be done. I'm not saying that anything in your list wasn't core, I'm saying that they can be adapted to a land based game.

Universal banks are easy, so is no destruction and NPC crafted gear. They would slip right into a land based game without a hiccup.

The tough two on your list is the third and fourth examples. I don't think they're impossible to translate. It would take something more complicated than just adding a market with historical data and contract support because the skill advancement is so tied to gear. It would fit a game like Planetside 2 better where you have gear and skills that are tied to them.

Asdar

  Guler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/05
Posts: 147

5/18/13 8:36:13 AM#55
Originally posted by Rusque

It would look like this:

You and your guild go to one of 500 zones. It's fairly empty. You go to a gold mine and have your miners start mining.

Then you travel back to unload backpacks and store your ore. Then you go back and do it again!

 

Maybe someone attacks, maybe they don't.

 

But in order to make such simple gameplay complex, they'll make it so your have to read a set of encyclopedias worth of information about the metallurgy of your swords before you know which one to equip.

So very true.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

5/18/13 9:23:49 AM#56
Originally posted by asdar

The reason I don't play Eve is because I want a real person to play and not a ship. I think it can be done or at least something close can be done. I'm not saying that anything in your list wasn't core, I'm saying that they can be adapted to a land based game.

Universal banks are easy, so is no destruction and NPC crafted gear. They would slip right into a land based game without a hiccup.

I never said EVE couldn't be made into a high fantasy setting, as that wasn't your argument.

  • "If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve"
  • "It's possible to translate Eve to high fantasy, just take Darkfall and tweak it a bit."

Those were your statements. One would have to make Darkfall nothing at all like Darkfall in order to create a land-based version of EVE. It' isn't a matter of just changing targeting and controls, because the core of EVE Online is as much an economic sim as it is a combat sim. Also, that you think changes such as regional markets, destruction on death and the removal of NPC crafted equipment is something you can just 'slip right in' is further reinforcement that you really don't get how important those things are to the core gameplay of EVE.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1864

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

5/18/13 9:35:04 AM#57
Originally posted by dave6660

What part of it do you want to copy?  Being a space game and having a more RTS style combat is a big part of Eve.

Recreating the economy in another setting is possible.  Gear destruction would not be popular though.

totaly +1

 

all pre posters basically abused this thread to make an advertisment for their game.

 

if you wanna "switch" eve from sci fi to fantasy, it would be about ships. surely not with avatars.

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  asdar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/05
Posts: 590

5/18/13 9:35:08 AM#58


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by asdar The reason I don't play Eve is because I want a real person to play and not a ship. I think it can be done or at least something close can be done. I'm not saying that anything in your list wasn't core, I'm saying that they can be adapted to a land based game. Universal banks are easy, so is no destruction and NPC crafted gear. They would slip right into a land based game without a hiccup.
I never said EVE couldn't be made into a high fantasy setting, as that wasn't your argument.
  • "If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve" "It's possible to translate Eve to high fantasy, just take Darkfall and tweak it a bit."
Those were your statements. One would have to make Darkfall nothing at all like Darkfall in order to create a land-based version of EVE. It' isn't a matter of just changing targeting and controls, because the core of EVE Online is as much an economic sim as it is a combat sim. Also, that you think changes such as regional markets, destruction on death and the removal of NPC crafted equipment is something you can just 'slip right in' is further reinforcement that you really don't get how important those things are to the core gameplay of EVE.

 


I'll just disagree with you then and leave it at that. No hard feelings on this end. I do think you could leave 90% of Darkfall and make it very similar to Eve, but land based. I'd like Darkfall to have regional supply and be more of a sim, and I don't think it would ruin the game or even change the underlying feel of the game for most players. It would just add another good element to it.

Asdar

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/18/13 9:39:21 AM#59
Originally posted by Thane

 all pre posters basically abused this thread to make an advertisment for their game.

??

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2871

5/18/13 10:09:55 AM#60

The biggest obstacle in translating EVE's space-based gameplay to a planetary surface is that the resulting game would need a game world that's several orders of magnitude bigger than anything made to date.

 

EVE works because it has a tremendous feeling of scale. Hundreds of player groups are allowed to claim complete control over large areas of EVE. Each of EVE's 6500+ solar systems (not counting wormhole space) is a seperate (but permanent) instance, but each instance feels quite large, even though it essentially consists of a collection of small instances (moons, planets, asteroid belts, etc.) within the large instance of the solar system.

The EVE game world is so large that it's quite possible to move goods and resources from one part of the world to another to take advantage of regional price differences. Many people do that "for a living". The travel times between trade hubs is so long that most people seldom bother to make the trip just to save 5% or 10% on the price of an item.

 

How could that be translated into a "normal" MMO game world ?

 

Imagine that your clan lays claim to a piece of territory in "Medi-EVEal Online". To duplicate EVE's gameplay, your claimed territory would have to:

  • only be enterable through a small number of valleys, but it would be virtually impossible to completely block any of the access points, as you are not allowed to build walls or gates across these 20km-wide valleys.
  • be large enough that if you're at any one of the various features (mines, towns, guard towers, bunkers, etc.), all the other features in your "kingdom" will be so far away that they're only a spec on the map. The only way to tell if their are hostiles at any of these points would be by using highly specialised optical equipment which (if you were carrying it) would reduce your fighting effectiveness.
  • yet, even though your territory is so big that you can't even see 90% of it, you can reach most of it in a minute or two.
  • you would never have enough resources in your own territory to be self-sufficient, so you HAVE to trade and import stuff.
  • the world outside your territory is so big that it can take hours for a round-trip to a major market hub.
  • The game world is so large and hostile that it is highly unlikely that you will EVER see all of it.
 
 
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