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General Discussion  » Anet and class balance "sigh"

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21 posts found
  Wicoa

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1569

 
OP  5/15/13 4:19:43 AM#1

I am not complaining about a particular class V another.

/rant on

What I am annoyed about is class balance within a class.  Take the engineer for example, if its traits and skill choices were better it could be a good class.  As it is, it is a frighteningly under-par class due to spec options and needs some serious reworking.

I spoke to a friend who said we had an 80 engineer in our guild, his class got "re-worked" and instead of rerolling just simply left the game.  I know many cases like this.

At the moment Guardian, Ranger, Warrior and Elementalist are the recommended balanced classes for players by players.  So 4 out of 8? I think this is a huge problem.  When I first picked up  the game I thought I would love to be an engineer living out a TF2 play style in a fantasy setting but no, I have to pick something else because of balance issues.

/rant off

 

 

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 576

5/15/13 4:23:51 AM#2

What is funny is they created the most balanced MMORPG(Guild  Wars 1), with more classes, and more skills.

 

Yet in GW2 - with less classes, and less skills, they somehow have trouble...

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  pwain

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 124

5/15/13 4:24:41 AM#3

Playing level 80 Engineer as well. The class is still very strong. I can kill everything in 1on1 and I can die to everything in 1on1. Balanced in my point of view.

 

In tPvP many top teams are running with an Engineer (Teldo playing hybrid Engineer for Team Paradigm for example)

The class balance is really good at the moment. Warrior is in tPvP too weak, that's all.

 

T

  User Deleted
5/15/13 5:54:18 AM#4

The problem isnt the classes, its the builds. All classes have at least one viable build. For Engineer its shotgun / elixirs. Which isnt appealing to everyone. Most people play the Engineer for the turrets or for the flamethrower, but both are actually pretty bad.  Same thing with Necromancer and minions.

First thing they need to do is remove the terrible 'synergy' between trait choices and specific weapons. It ruins choice in the game.

Then they need to introduce more skills for each weapon and more utility.  I wouldnt say that GW1 was more balanced, but the vast amount of choices certainly made it a lot more fun, playing around with how the skills all worked within a set.  GW2 doesnt have that, and it is really ruining the long term appeal of the game for me.

Must... have.... more.... skills......

I was really counting on an expansion to fix that and add more classes, but the news that there wouldnt be one this year really dampened my enthusiasm for the game.   

  Zeroxin

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 2499

My words are not here to sway you,they are here to make you understand.

5/15/13 5:57:36 AM#5
Originally posted by Wicoa

I am not complaining about a particular class V another.

/rant on

What I am annoyed about is class balance within a class.  Take the engineer for example, if its traits and skill choices were better it could be a good class.  As it is, it is a frighteningly under-par class due to spec options and needs some serious reworking.

I spoke to a friend who said we had an 80 engineer in our guild, his class got "re-worked" and instead of rerolling just simply left the game.  I know many cases like this.

At the moment Guardian, Ranger, Warrior and Elementalist are the recommended balanced classes for players by players.  So 4 out of 8? I think this is a huge problem.  When I first picked up  the game I thought I would love to be an engineer living out a TF2 play style in a fantasy setting but no, I have to pick something else because of balance issues.

/rant off

 

What exactly are these "balance issues"? Because you can say "balance issues" all day and it wouldn't mean anything unless you actually spelled out what the problem is/was.

I play Engie as my main in PvP so if there's anyone who would know about "balance issues" with this class it would be me.

This is not a game.

  Zeroxin

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 2499

My words are not here to sway you,they are here to make you understand.

5/15/13 6:02:09 AM#6
Originally posted by evilastro

The problem isnt the classes, its the builds. All classes have at least one viable build. For Engineer its shotgun / elixirs. Which isnt appealing to everyone. Most people play the Engineer for the turrets or for the flamethrower, but both are actually pretty bad.  Same thing with Necromancer and minions.

First thing they need to do is remove the terrible 'synergy' between trait choices and specific weapons. It ruins choice in the game.

Then they need to introduce more skills for each weapon and more utility.  I wouldnt say that GW1 was more balanced, but the vast amount of choices certainly made it a lot more fun, playing around with how the skills all worked within a set.  GW2 doesnt have that, and it is really ruining the long term appeal of the game for me.

Must... have.... more.... skills......

I was really counting on an expansion to fix that and add more classes, but the news that there wouldnt be one this year really dampened my enthusiasm for the game.   

There's more than one viable build for Engineers. People just play Rifle/HGH or P/P HGH because it's popular and it deals a ton of damage with both condis and power.

You can just look at what Teldo is playing, he isn't playing Rifle/Elixirs, he's playing Pistol/Shield Flamethrower, Bomb kit. Allowing him to take points and deal condi damage really easily.

I myself have been playing several other builds that work very well but obviously, people only go for what the general perception is.

This is not a game.

  RizelStar

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2818

We all breathe and we all die.

5/15/13 6:03:33 AM#7

Living life...*sigh*

 

MMORPG's and class balance...*Sigh*

 

Video games with classes period...*Sigh*

 

Same shit different day...*Sigh*

 

Video games with builds...*Sigh*

 

The solution?...

 

*SIGH*

Edited: Comes back...games that take years to almost for the most part have classes and builds to be balanced...*Sigh*

 

 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16024

5/15/13 6:09:06 AM#8
Originally posted by Mkilbride

What is funny is they created the most balanced MMORPG(Guild  Wars 1), with more classes, and more skills.

Yet in GW2 - with less classes, and less skills, they somehow have trouble...

Several reasons for that, Jeff Strain have left the company and the action based combat of GW2 is harder to balance.

GW1 also had some underperforming skills, I think GW2 will be a lot better after an expansion when we get more skills so the classes becomes a bit more flexible and you can make more good speccs.

Still, I think GW2 is better balanced than most MMOs anyways (which is kinda sad).

  RizelStar

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2818

We all breathe and we all die.

5/15/13 6:12:09 AM#9
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Mkilbride

What is funny is they created the most balanced MMORPG(Guild  Wars 1), with more classes, and more skills.

Yet in GW2 - with less classes, and less skills, they somehow have trouble...

Several reasons for that, Jeff Strain have left the company and the action based combat of GW2 is harder to balance.

GW1 also had some underperforming skills, I think GW2 will be a lot better after an expansion when we get more skills so the classes becomes a bit more flexible and you can make more good speccs.

Still, I think GW2 is better balanced than most MMOs anyways (which is kinda sad).

This as well...*Sigh*

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  1vald2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/20/12
Posts: 75

5/15/13 6:13:12 AM#10
Originally posted by Zeroxin
Originally posted by evilastro

The problem isnt the classes, its the builds. All classes have at least one viable build. For Engineer its shotgun / elixirs. Which isnt appealing to everyone. Most people play the Engineer for the turrets or for the flamethrower, but both are actually pretty bad.  Same thing with Necromancer and minions.

First thing they need to do is remove the terrible 'synergy' between trait choices and specific weapons. It ruins choice in the game.

Then they need to introduce more skills for each weapon and more utility.  I wouldnt say that GW1 was more balanced, but the vast amount of choices certainly made it a lot more fun, playing around with how the skills all worked within a set.  GW2 doesnt have that, and it is really ruining the long term appeal of the game for me.

Must... have.... more.... skills......

I was really counting on an expansion to fix that and add more classes, but the news that there wouldnt be one this year really dampened my enthusiasm for the game.   

There's more than one viable build for Engineers. People just play Rifle/HGH or P/P HGH because it's popular and it deals a ton of damage with both condis and power.

You can just look at what Teldo is playing, he isn't playing Rifle/Elixirs, he's playing Pistol/Shield Flamethrower, Bomb kit. Allowing him to take points and deal condi damage really easily.

I myself have been playing several other builds that work very well but obviously, people only go for what the general perception is.

Well I have played my warrior for almost 650 hours before quitting because of frustration. I was always the type of warrior who liked to use mace and shield, but for the warrior mace is not viable in PvE (or rarely is). Additionally, I would love to use a weapon and choose my own skills like I did in so many other games such as GW1, WoW, etc. Having only 3 skills bound to my main hand gets really boring after a while. 

 

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

5/15/13 6:50:11 AM#11
Originally posted by Mkilbride

What is funny is they created the most balanced MMORPG(Guild  Wars 1), with more classes, and more skills.

 

Yet in GW2 - with less classes, and less skills, they somehow have trouble...

Until the moment you step in a forum actually discussing GW1.

It is always like this "game x is so balanced and perfect" -> go to forum of the game -> "that is imba balanced shit", "super op", "greatly up", "plz nef this", "plz buff this".

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  CoNk3r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 37

5/15/13 6:58:12 AM#12
Originally posted by pwain

Playing level 80 Engineer as well. The class is still very strong. I can kill everything in 1on1 and I can die to everything in 1on1. Balanced in my point of view.


The class balance is really good at the moment. Warrior is in tPvP too weak, that's all.

Yup, someone recently posted a video over at reddit GW2 : just shows how powerful the eng. can be, if you know the class. Not sure, but the Engineer is prolly the toughest mofo class you can face 1vs1, about the same as annoying as the ele-bunker.


And someone leaving the game or a game becuase of a small nerf of the class, must have the attention span of a boiled egg. Next time tell him/her to play with an alt, i mean its a MMORPGame and not a "i play only 1x class-til i hit the wall and get bored and start to rant" MMORPG. 

  Fion

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 2356

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We are recruiting.

5/15/13 12:29:40 PM#13

There is a minor problem with balance but it's more that certain classes have builds that are too powerful and thus unbalance the rest of the game. 0/0/10/30/30 D/D Ele for example, one build that absolutely dominates because it's so powerful. It took a few nerfs recently and now you're seeing a much wider variety of builds being used and a hell of a lot of Ele's who dropped the class because that one build isn't OP anymore. If you watch the top players of each profession they often use builds completely different than the 'standard bunker' that 'everyone' seems to run, that and they change those builds up to meet the situation and needs of the time. I've seen people suggest there is no customization to professions. That 'Ele 1 is identical to Ele 2' which is absolutely laughable. 

Engineer is no different. As someone above said, Teldo is amongst the top Engi players and he uses Flamethrower & Bomb Kit and the guy freaking owns with that setup. So I don't buy this 'GW2 is completely unbalanced' or 'certain classes never get to do x because they suck'. It's all about the build. I have a friend who plays Necro and it's certainly true that a lot of PvE groups don't take necros but he gets into groups and is very effective all the time because A: He really knows the profession and  B: he doesn't stick with 'build A' and bitch if it doesn't work perfectly. He experiments, finds cool synergies. His support Necro is fantastic.

In the end I find the game 'far' more balanced and open to allowing players to find their own builds and still rock with them WoW has over the last 8 years.

Edit: To the guy who said GW1 was the most balanced MMOG out there. Thanks for the laugh. Anyone on that games PvP scene knows how completely wrong that one is. Balanced? Yea if everyone runs the same single build. GW1 may have had ~200 powers per profession but generally only about 15 of them were worth a damn. If you didn't follow the Meta, you were screwed. No matter what profession.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/15/13 1:04:33 PM#14
Mmos can never be balanced

Esports in a mmo is a lie

Gw2 seems better balanced than most though, spvp is probably the most balanced battleground style pvp I've played after gw1.

Unfortunately minigames pvp ain't my thing and WvW is a huge disappointment compared to simmilar systems in other games. (even war did it better imo)
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/15/13 1:05:43 PM#15
I played necro, ranger and guardian.

The 1st 2 seemed balanced to me. The guardian slightly op.
  RizelStar

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2818

We all breathe and we all die.

5/15/13 1:37:41 PM#16
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Mkilbride

What is funny is they created the most balanced MMORPG(Guild  Wars 1), with more classes, and more skills.

 

Yet in GW2 - with less classes, and less skills, they somehow have trouble...

Until the moment you step in a forum actually discussing GW1.

It is always like this "game x is so balanced and perfect" -> go to forum of the game -> "that is imba balanced shit", "super op", "greatly up", "plz nef this", "plz buff this".

*Sigh* 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1479

5/16/13 4:34:03 PM#17

in GW2 the ones that complain about 'bad underpowered' classes are usually just bad at playing it.

I can kill 1 on 1 whether it's on my ranger, thief, or ele, and I die at times as well when I meet a better opponent.

 

Sure, classes are not 100% balanced, but I dare to say that the 'know your class' factor is the biggest factor of pvp outcomes.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

5/16/13 4:55:31 PM#18

I rolled an engineer first, it drove me outof the game for a while. It felt to lifeless, slow, and impotent next to something like the Guard, Warr, and Ele.

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  TheScavenger

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 672

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

5/16/13 5:08:49 PM#19

Not to bring up WoW...but it took them to nerf the hell out of the talent tree to get balanced. And even then, I haven't played MoP...so I dunno if its balanced or not. But I assume its a lot better, seeing as you don't have any choices when leveling in WoW anymore. So maybe GW2 needs to take away more choices so it can be balanced easier. Blizzard did this, but again, not sure if it worked or not.

 

 

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  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 2732

5/16/13 5:14:32 PM#20
The balancing issues are worse than ever in mop - see mmo champion. The root cause remains unchanged - gear stat inflation. This is the advantage gw2 and other horizontal progression games have - the balancing is not a moving target, the main factor is player evolution not player and stat evolution.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

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