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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Death? What's that? (How many times do you expect to die?)

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45 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

5/16/13 12:24:38 PM#21
Originally posted by dave6660

In most mmorpg's, I no longer care how many times I die.  It doesn't really matter.  Nothing is lost, nothing changes, it's barely even an inconvenience.  Sometimes it's even useful.

I'm not even sure what the purpose of dying in an mmorpg is anymore.  In a game that never ends, where you have infinite lives and backward progress is impossible why even bother with a death mechanic.  If they made all characters immortal, what would really change?  Many players would probably be happy about it.

The purpose is to reset your challenge. Fight a boss .. if you wipe, it resets. That maintains the challenge, so you cannot zerg.

It is just a reset. There should be no penalty.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2365

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

5/16/13 12:50:04 PM#22
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660

In most mmorpg's, I no longer care how many times I die.  It doesn't really matter.  Nothing is lost, nothing changes, it's barely even an inconvenience.  Sometimes it's even useful.

I'm not even sure what the purpose of dying in an mmorpg is anymore.  In a game that never ends, where you have infinite lives and backward progress is impossible why even bother with a death mechanic.  If they made all characters immortal, what would really change?  Many players would probably be happy about it.

The purpose is to reset your challenge. Fight a boss .. if you wipe, it resets. That maintains the challenge, so you cannot zerg.

It is just a reset. There should be no penalty.

Then why not just have the boss' health reset to full and let the fight continue.  The death mechanic is still useless.

To me, death in these games seems more symbolic then anything.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

5/16/13 1:03:25 PM#23

I think my death count when I left Asheron's Call was over 4,000. I couldn't begin to guess how many times I died in WOW on the way to 60.

I don't know how many total deaths I had going from 1-32 in Aion, but I can tell you that it took exactly three deaths from level 60 players to quit the game.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Ghavrigg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 731

5/16/13 1:08:37 PM#24

I wish there was an MMO with Dark Souls mechanics. Gain xp, and continue getting it but use it as all in-game currency for buying everything, as well as leveling, but if you die, you have to run back to your corpse or you lose all your unspent XP, and if you die again on the way, you leave another corpse with nothing on it. :p

The difficulty is negotiable, however, if no one wants a crazy hard PvE game.

  Torik

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2328

5/16/13 1:11:26 PM#25
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660

In most mmorpg's, I no longer care how many times I die.  It doesn't really matter.  Nothing is lost, nothing changes, it's barely even an inconvenience.  Sometimes it's even useful.

I'm not even sure what the purpose of dying in an mmorpg is anymore.  In a game that never ends, where you have infinite lives and backward progress is impossible why even bother with a death mechanic.  If they made all characters immortal, what would really change?  Many players would probably be happy about it.

The purpose is to reset your challenge. Fight a boss .. if you wipe, it resets. That maintains the challenge, so you cannot zerg.

It is just a reset. There should be no penalty.

Then why not just have the boss' health reset to full and let the fight continue.  The death mechanic is still useless.

To me, death in these games seems more symbolic then anything.

Death in games is always symbolic.  It is usually symbolic of  you and/or your group failing the challenge set before you.  They could reset all healths to full but in more complex fights that would result in a different challenge so they use the death to reset the starting conditions to the beginning.  In group play, the death of a single party member represents the loss of a resource but the group as a whole might be able to compensate and beat the challenge anyway so the game waits for a full wipe before resetting.

 

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5825

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

5/16/13 1:17:48 PM#26

i get pissed when i get killed a lot by stupid AI with lots high damage and health. On the other hand, I love when i have to be tactical because a smart AI is giving me a hard time.

 

With that said, AI needs to be programmed in a way that is very smart (for an AI) so that if you die, or every time you die, you know you made a mistake. AI victories should not be because they had high damage or high health, it should be because they were well programmed.

 

I hate dumb AI and will always get pissed when i die by a dumb AI. If its a smart AI then im ok dying a million times because i know i am not being cautious enough.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/16/13 3:24:27 PM#27

There is no set "distance" to endgame, so 100+ deaths might be fine or 10 deaths might be too much.

People get pissed if they die "even without penalties" (even though there are penalties) because failure is failure and most people don't need to also be whipped viciously by a game to want to avoid failure.

 

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

5/16/13 3:45:40 PM#28
Originally posted by Iselin

It's actually very simple: it's all about making you feel "heroic" when soloing. Same thing with the trend to give you "personal story quests."

In older MMOs surviving was more a function of bringing along a sufficient number of friends. Now that they're all being developed with solo play in mind, they're programmed differently.

The new ones are not even balanced around you being able to kill one mob without dying. Your abilities are now balanced around you being able to take on a group of them all by yourself and surviving.

 

That's only because killing one mob at a  time (alone or with a group) is rather boring.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4155

5/16/13 4:43:12 PM#29
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Iselin

It's actually very simple: it's all about making you feel "heroic" when soloing. Same thing with the trend to give you "personal story quests."

In older MMOs surviving was more a function of bringing along a sufficient number of friends. Now that they're all being developed with solo play in mind, they're programmed differently.

The new ones are not even balanced around you being able to kill one mob without dying. Your abilities are now balanced around you being able to take on a group of them all by yourself and surviving.

 

That's only because killing one mob at a  time (alone or with a group) is rather boring.

Tell that to a single target DPS specialist... oh wait, they don't exist any more.

I'm trying to think of the UFC equivalent. I don't just fight George St. Pierre, I fight one George and 6 mini GSPs... you're right. It's less boring.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/16/13 4:47:02 PM#30
Originally posted by Iselin

Tell that to a single target DPS specialist... oh wait, they don't exist any more.

Hopefully we're not lamenting the loss of classes who were specialized in such a way that when a second mob appeared (let alone 3+) they were very sad.  Talk about a massive constraint on a designer's ability to design interesting fights, "You can only design fights where 75% of the fight is spent DPSing against one mob; otherwise either the AOEers or the Single-Target DPSers become overpowered."

  Magiknight

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 762

5/16/13 4:49:14 PM#31
Yes please. More death penalties, danger, and challenges (PvE).
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4155

5/16/13 5:03:04 PM#32
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Iselin

Tell that to a single target DPS specialist... oh wait, they don't exist any more.

Hopefully we're not lamenting the loss of classes who were specialized in such a way that when a second mob appeared (let alone 3+) they were very sad.  Talk about a massive constraint on a designer's ability to design interesting fights, "You can only design fights where 75% of the fight is spent DPSing against one mob; otherwise either the AOEers or the Single-Target DPSers become overpowered."

No. Let's just give everyone AOE, healing. mitigation and single target spike damage. Some can hold a bow, others knives others swords and one old guy with a staff....let's make them all the same but call them different things.

"Rain of arrows", "fan of knives"...please. Yes let's call the trend to make everyone equal a good thing. You know it's leading to one single class, right?

  nerovipus32

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2734

5/16/13 5:06:38 PM#33
End game, the worst thing to happen to the mmorpg genre.
  TheScavenger

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 700

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

5/16/13 5:14:39 PM#34
I don't want to ever die, so I expect to not die at all. An MMO or any game, shouldn't punish you for playing. It should be rewarding and fun.

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  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

5/16/13 5:17:41 PM#35

log in
roll face across keyboard
collect purples
log out

any deviation from this tried and true format is unacceptable.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  Velocinox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/15/06
Posts: 675

5/16/13 5:21:20 PM#36
Maybe the player was just tired of your group?

'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than the one you've become familiar with.


How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  xeniar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 817

5/16/13 5:27:31 PM#37

humz. How many deaths do it tolerate before reaching endgame.

Depends on how i awnser the question:P

I myself tolerate 0 deaths. Not that i flip out when i die, But i think i should be ashammed if i die unless contect is really really hard. and i want to be punished accordingly.

It really depends on how hard the content is. walk in the park i should not die at all. an actuall challange il give it my all means not to die. but if i would well yeah thats's oke. il vote 0

 

edit: im not sure how i feel about penalties after reaching cap.

Imo reaching Cap should be a long hard journey if you die youl hate yourself for it. When u reach Cap  it should be oke imo. other chalanges come your way then. I remember in EQOA when u died u got a death penalty of 10% on current level. so you would not lose any exp. but u needed more to level up. and during your death penatly your exp bar moved so slowly it was agonizing:P and it could stack 5 times. When i finnaly got to the level cap the first thing i did was try to kill some mobs wich we alway avoided before (and by avoiding i mean u circle around by miles not to pull aggro) Stil got three shotted but that was my reward of getting to cap i could now be a little more reckless and try new chalanges wich where around the world like terrorantula and his nasty aoe poison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c3Cs_VarZI

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/16/13 5:34:41 PM#38

I plan my adventures as if my character had only one life.  So I never go up to a monster expecting to try a fight it 4-5 times before figuring out the enemy's moves.

When my character does die, it's usually because I got bored or lazy and just tried to do something too quickly.  While the character still lives, I will keep fighting to escape from even the most impossible situation.  After the character dies, I will usually go back and complete what I was trying to do then decide if I need to take a break.  This is one the little things that turns me off of formal grouping - after a death, it doesn't feel right to rejoin the party and carry on as if nothing had happened.  And it makes PvP completely unsuitable for me.

Just because something is mathematically not a setback, doesn't mean that it doesn't matter in my imagination.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/16/13 6:35:09 PM#39
Originally posted by Iselin

No. Let's just give everyone AOE, healing. mitigation and single target spike damage. Some can hold a bow, others knives others swords and one old guy with a staff....let's make them all the same but call them different things.

"Rain of arrows", "fan of knives"...please. Yes let's call the trend to make everyone equal a good thing. You know it's leading to one single class, right?

When only certain classes have AOE it actually strongly limits the types of boss designs people can make (and also creates the whole "you can only ever fight 1 monster at a time" problem mentioned before, which isn't as fun.)

When only certain classes can heal well or mitigate well, that doesn't strongly limit the types of bosses that can be designed.

I'm actually not against giving classes access to everything, but locking them into a finite set of capabilities during combat.  As long as you need at least 3 players to be capable of fielding every required character capability, a game is going to have good fun grouping.

So if standard group combat requires 10 distinct traits (from specific buffs to taunt+mitigation to healing to DPS to AOE and beyond) and your class can literally utilize all 10 traits but only 3 at one time, then you're in a situation where you will end up being very specialized in any given group setting and provide crucial value to the group.

But if a game has a class which literally cannot ever AOE, then you suddenly can't be quite as flexible with boss designs and have to always account for that gimped overspecialized build.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

5/16/13 6:39:20 PM#40
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Axehilt
 

No. Let's just give everyone AOE, healing. mitigation and single target spike damage. Some can hold a bow, others knives others swords and one old guy with a staff....let's make them all the same but call them different things.

"Rain of arrows", "fan of knives"...please. Yes let's call the trend to make everyone equal a good thing. You know it's leading to one single class, right?

You really need to play more games other than MMORPGs.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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