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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Dreaded Death Debate

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78 posts found
  centkin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 723

5/15/13 9:49:50 PM#41

While I like the idea of there being realistic travel times, I do not like the idea of corpse runs.  I can remember losing a corpse in EQ1 -- You then ended up back to really crappy equipment and nobody wanted to group with you.  The worst was when you were in a corpse run situation then the server had trouble -- you now got to decide to wait until it came back up and then try to get your corpse or go to bed and maybe lose all of your stuff. 

 

Having it take 30 minutes travel time to get to a nice hidden area with significantly better results than the normal places is nice.

 

Actually in my ideal game, death would remove a small amount of permanent stats.  Your strength might go from 85% to 84%.  A clean character would be able to wear better equipment etc than one who had died several times during their tenure.  You could then reset your stats if you got reincarnated.  This would cost you 5 levels and allow you to reset your stats to their original levels.  It would also allow you to shift one class type.  IE from pure healer to hybrid dps/healer or hybrid dps/healer to dps or dps to hybrid dps/tank etc.  One step(each class would have 3-5 options).  This mechanic would also allow people to change up how they play every once in a while at a cost. 

  flizzer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 790

5/15/13 9:53:53 PM#42
I'm against harsh death penalties. Currently I'm playing GW2 and often I've crashed in the battle zones and log back to find I'm dead. Some days this is frequent.  Harsh death penalties would make this miserable. I look at harsh death penalties as a barrier to actually playing the game. Some armor damage or temporary weakness is all I want from death.
  Magiknight

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 607

5/15/13 10:00:48 PM#43
More harsh death penalties please.
  ElRenmazuo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3459

5/15/13 10:12:14 PM#44
it was a similar death system in final fantasy 11 and I liked because of the memories, of course i got pissed when it did happen when i played but I look back its funny now. I remember one of my in game friends corpse was stuck somewhere and me with two other friends one of which was a white mage kind of went on a little adventure through the incredibly tough monster zone to save his ass so he wouldnt lose a bazillion exp and de-level, GOOD TIMES!!! Now thats true PvE fun.  In general even things like the death penalty brings back fond memories of old school mmos...i cant think of anything from playing any modern day theme park mmos cuz theres nothing realy worth remembering.
  baphamet

Elite Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2579

110100100

5/16/13 11:16:25 AM#45


Originally posted by Storm_Cloud

Originally posted by baphamet  

Originally posted by olepi I think if you get killed, it should:   - cost some XP, perhaps 1/4 of a level's worth - leave a tombstone that can be 100% recovered if you go back, or summoned to an altar for a cost. Either way, your equipment is heavily degraded. Summoning also loses you more XP. - any mounts or pack animals with you when you die just stay, but will die if you don't come back to get them. If they die, you HAVE to do a corpse run within a certain amount of time, or lose everything on that animal - items cannot just be repaired at any vendor, you have to craft an equivalent level "repair kit", or buy one from another crafter. If your super-duper swords gets damaged because you died, you need a super-duper repair kit. Only players can make these. - you also lose some stats, like strength, resistances, etc. These can only be restored by player-made potions of equivalent level - getting killed also affects your faction. You lose faction wherever you respawn, and also lose faction points against the creature that killed you. I would also add fairly severe item decay, especially after being in use. Shields take a lot of hits, and break down quickly. Same with melee weapons. Range weapons should have a chance of mis-fire, which causes severe damage, taking them out of action. Make all weapons/armor/jewelry/etc player made. No mob drops anything except mats to make things from. This along with rapid item decay and penalties for dying, will make crafters and the economy important.
  don't agree with the xp loss to that degree, that is way too harsh especially if its as hard to level in EQnext as it was in vanilla EQ or early on. a 1/4 of a level in one death? at high levels that's like a week of playing for some people (or more). what if you then die on a corpse run? make that two weeks down the drain. i think the xp penalty vanilla EQ had stung you good enough and was perfect. i also support the idea of losing coin and a piece or two of gear when you get killed in pvp and possibly pve as well. but not something that will force you to quit the game because you had a bad night and died a couple times. JMO  
If I remember correctly, the xp loss for death in EQ (on release and after) was much worse than 1/4 of a level. I want the penalty exactly the way it was then. Nothing else. Sure, if you don't get a rez, and you die on a corpse run, it will suck, but you'll live and you will gain that xp back, sooner or later. I know I did, always. :)

This would be for Original difficulty servers, if they will have them. Compared to today's style of MMO's, this is not for everyone.


just imagine dying then running back and dying once on your CR and losing half a level.

yeah, i am quite confident that never happened in EQ, nowhere near it.

i remember it being about three blue bars of xp loss per death.

there were 5 blue bars in one yellow bar and 5 yellow bars in a full bar of xp.

in other words, a 1/4 of a level loss per death would have been more than double of what it actually was in EQ.

it definitely was not that harsh of an xp loss in EQ at any point that i can remember.

but still,at high level without a rez that 3 blues or so of xp loss was a stinger.

if EQnext is going to feature similar slow xp gains like EQ had, you don't need xp loss to be any harsher than it had in EQ IMO

anything much more than that will turn people off i would think.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7649

Logic be damned!

5/16/13 11:30:12 AM#46

Corpse runs to get your gear back worked in UO because the gear didn't really matter - there really wasn't any gear worth going through hoops to recover.

If you could get back / had friends to help - great!

If not, any decent player had stacks in their bank to replace it.

Same reason corpse looting worked for PvP.

EQ is built on the vertical progression and acquiring gear.

It may work in EQNext if they make death rare and hard to do - but then how to you create proper risk without making everything too easy?

These issues do not exist in a vacuum. Death penalties tie directly to how combat is handled and how gear acquisition and power work (crafted, dropped, etc.)

You can't logically just say "death penalty should be like this" without knowing how everything else in the game works.

How much you can solo versus forced grouping is a HUGE determination to how death penalties should be done.

Also whether or not you have the Trinity.

Death can sting much more if the vast majority of the time you are playing in groups with solid healing/tanking mechanics.

You rely on others, others rely on you, death can be avoided through good teamwork etc.

If the game is very solo friendly, death penalty cannot be harsh. Unless you homogenize classes / builds to the point everyone is self sufficient enough to avoid death - but then how do you do group content if everyone is the same? (looks at GW2)

But how do you build combat mechanics to challenge and engage players knowing everyone is a Tank/Healer/Control/Damage hybrid?

I could go on and on...

Now Playing: D3:RoS
Looking Towards: Destiny

  centkin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 723

5/16/13 12:06:04 PM#47

Note there were only three places where you lost over 1/4 of a level in the original everquest. 

While most people realized that 35, 40, and 45 were WAY longer than normal levels, a smaller number of people realized the other issue with those levels...

In 36 41 and 46 deaths were figured as a percentage of the exp from the extremely long levels before them and would be MUCH harsher than any other death in the game.  It also made those points the most likely to unding you and throw you back into the long level before it.

Note that this is before they put in the patch to smooth out the levels.

  asdar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/05
Posts: 590

 
OP  5/19/13 12:43:52 PM#48

For me the xp loss is good, I wouldn't even call it harsh, just meaningful.

Losing all your gear at max level, that was harsh. Both together is what made EQ death so feared and hated.

I think if you had the xp loss it would accomplish the same goal of making death meaningful, but without the fear and loathing.

Asdar

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1843

5/19/13 12:48:15 PM#49

I want harsher death penalty. Maybe they should make those special mouse and keyboards which sends many volts of electric current through my body every time i die. I want to be punished and smell my own burning flesh for sucking at video games.

Nothing less will do!!

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Ppiper

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/08/13
Posts: 599

5/19/13 12:55:55 PM#50
Originally posted by Margrave

I loved EQ1 a ton. Played it way more than I'd like to admit.

Hated the death system with a bitter passion. Corpse runs, naked, with the chance of losing hard earned gear is just dumb. No other word describes it better.

I could live with losing xp, and as equally dumb as it was de-leveling was almost tolerable. But the naked corpse runs are a deal breaker for me personally.

If anyone implements a system similar in any game, I won't touch it. Not even a free trial.

I agree. Back then there were few options. Now with so many other games and a whole culture of WoW enthusiasts, I doubt it will come to that unless like someone posted earlier they have EQ1 type servers for those who enjoy that. I preferred DAOC death where you could lose XP but never delevel, that helps.   

  zoinx

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/05
Posts: 15

5/20/13 12:45:26 PM#51
Bring back the death penalty! It was good having to fear death.
Bring back corpse runs /shout anyone able to help me on a CR? It helped build the great community that EQ was.
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

5/20/13 2:45:58 PM#52
I don't 'dread' it. Just nothing left to say about it, after 17 years.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

5/21/13 7:12:43 AM#53
Originally posted by zoinx
Bring back the death penalty! It was good having to fear death.
Bring back corpse runs /shout anyone able to help me on a CR? It helped build the great community that EQ was.

You can't build MMOs like they were in Vanilla WoW and in Everquest.

 

You would be a terrible business person to make a game incredibly similar to Everquest 1, where grouping was a near necessity. MMOs are at a time of anonymity, where you cant be punished for being a total tard because you likely wont run into them ever again. Especially considering Smedley said SOE's future as a business is dependant on the success of EQN, so they have to cater to the masses. They cant just win over EQ vets and be in the clear, they have to win over the MMO crowd and even gamers who havent played MMOs before.

 

For all the good things you can say while wearing your nostalgia rose-tinted glasses about Everquest, there are annoyances that in 2013 would drive a majority crazy.

 

 

  Nurf3duk

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/13
Posts: 33

5/21/13 8:48:45 AM#54

You can't blame people for wanting a game of substance instead of the instant gratification we see in mmo's today, it's no wonder people long for a game similiar to the original Everquest, why wouldn't they make a game similar to the original in some respects when that game has brought them 14 years of income. I would also like to add that Planetside 2 generates more daily income than any other of its current titles for SoE its a booming success, they are also making it for the next gen consoles for even more $$$.

So I find the statement "this will make or break our company" to be a little dramatic from SoE, eitherway we will get a better idea of what to expect in August...I just don't understand why people are so against making a game difficult again.

 

p.s If you think Vanilla WoW was hard you were doing it wrong.

  Superman0X

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 867

5/21/13 9:15:04 AM#55

The death penalty (and corpse run) was an important part of the SOCIAL element of the game. It provided a common ground, on which players would work together. This was a form of forced grouping (indirectly) designed to bring the community together. Players were willing to help others recover their corpse, because they knew that they would need this help themselves. This scenario was very good for the game... and should be replicated in other games, even if with different mechanics.

 

You have to remember that the goal of a game is to teach us (without us realizing it). There have to be challenges, and we have to learn the ways to overcome them. Building in positive benefits for these behaviors is an age old game designer trick. This has been applied to games for centuries, and the best games are those that do this without the player realizing it.

  SyDiko

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/08
Posts: 2

5/21/13 12:38:08 PM#56
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by zoinx
Bring back the death penalty! It was good having to fear death.
Bring back corpse runs /shout anyone able to help me on a CR? It helped build the great community that EQ was.

You can't build MMOs like they were in Vanilla WoW and in Everquest.

 

You would be a terrible business person to make a game incredibly similar to Everquest 1, where grouping was a near necessity. MMOs are at a time of anonymity, where you cant be punished for being a total tard because you likely wont run into them ever again. Especially considering Smedley said SOE's future as a business is dependant on the success of EQN, so they have to cater to the masses. They cant just win over EQ vets and be in the clear, they have to win over the MMO crowd and even gamers who havent played MMOs before.

 

For all the good things you can say while wearing your nostalgia rose-tinted glasses about Everquest, there are annoyances that in 2013 would drive a majority crazy.

 

 

 

Why are you trying to wear the Voice o' Reason hat, when it isn't necessary? Also, a strict death penalty promotes smarter gameplay and also brings back social aspects as stated.

Additionally, what you're forgetting is the fact that if they follow the current model or a warped version of it - the game will be beaten within 6 months of launch and they'll lose subscriptions out of bordem. So it's a lose/lose or try and might/might not lose situation. And, they already tried the current model in Vanguard, and look how far that got them.

  djcincy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 85

5/21/13 4:52:05 PM#57
I will be writing an article on my website later this month on this very topic at eqnexus.com.  I personally feel that without a strong death system in place the player never fully feels in danger in a game.  The thought of losing your corpse or deleveling haunts me to this very day.
  Cochran1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 460

"Fish can't sit down cause they got no laps!!"

5/21/13 4:57:14 PM#58
Depends on progression being level based, but if it's not then the death penalty might have to be re-envisioned.
vizzledrix Xfire Miniprofile
  Vahrane

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 366

5/21/13 4:58:03 PM#59
Originally posted by asdar

The majority ruins everything!

I think to make it easier they could make coffins at low level so you could always get your gear back, but I hope they do have some kind of penalty.

I don't understand how people in new MMO's can be so worried about getting just the right class and gear and then play all reckless wandering through areas without half the caution we'd have used in EQ.

     It's because new mmo's require less than half the caution  of original EQ. This trend is a major contributor to my inability to find a non-mindless mmorpg nowadays.  

  asdar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/05
Posts: 590

 
OP  5/24/13 5:05:35 AM#60


Originally posted by Cochran1
Depends on progression being level based, but if it's not then the death penalty might have to be re-envisioned.

Too true Cochran, good point. I don't like the idea of losing skills, and gear is precious to some so that doesn't seem to be a good way either.

In any case I'd like death to be at least respected.

Asdar

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