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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » People should stop complaining about PvE...

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82 posts found
  ZedTheRock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/13
Posts: 175

5/15/13 9:16:09 AM#61
Originally posted by DamonVile
Most of the ppl posting don't really care if the game has no pve. It's the hypocrisy of OP and those defending it that keep this thread going.

Nothing wrong with a pvp only mmo. The market needs more but...every pve mmo ever made had millions of mirror image threads of this one in them. Were the pvp players just trolling with those threads or did they see a game they'd like to play but also wanted the style of play they play most of the time added to the game.

SO very true.  Go look at the front page of the TESO Sub-Forums.  Probably 5 or 6 "We Want Open World PvP" Or please Remove Faction lock and have PvP servers or 3 factions is to many factions.  All those threads have connotations about PvP.

SUP

  skaaz1

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/13
Posts: 15

5/15/13 9:59:19 AM#62

I think there should be some PvE in the game also.

 

No character advancement from it though. It should be there basically as a hindrance on your way to the end goal. 

 

 

For example: I can't guard this crossing, but I can hire this group of NPC's to guard it for me. Will they succeed at it. Most likely not, but they will be a hindrance to my enemy and give me some more time to defend my main objective.

 

Things such as that, I could see work as far as PvE goes with CU

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

5/15/13 10:11:30 AM#63
Originally posted by skaaz1

I think there should be some PvE in the game also.

No character advancement from it though. It should be there basically as a hindrance on your way to the end goal. 

For example: I can't guard this crossing, but I can hire this group of NPC's to guard it for me. Will they succeed at it. Most likely not, but they will be a hindrance to my enemy and give me some more time to defend my main objective.

Things such as that, I could see work as far as PvE goes with CU

If you had read anything MJ has said, at all, you would know that this is exactly what he has planned for the game.  There WILL be PvE (NPCs and MOBs) just no character progression or loot drops from it.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2564

5/15/13 10:17:21 AM#64
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by skaaz1

I think there should be some PvE in the game also.

No character advancement from it though. It should be there basically as a hindrance on your way to the end goal. 

For example: I can't guard this crossing, but I can hire this group of NPC's to guard it for me. Will they succeed at it. Most likely not, but they will be a hindrance to my enemy and give me some more time to defend my main objective.

Things such as that, I could see work as far as PvE goes with CU

If you had read anything MJ has said, at all, you would know that this is exactly what he has planned for the game.  There WILL be PvE (NPCs and MOBs) just no character progression or loot drops from it.

Just remember, plans and execution are 2 different things.......

 

No character progression or mob loot - why even have it? It is useless content.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

5/15/13 10:34:22 AM#65
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by skaaz1

I think there should be some PvE in the game also.

No character advancement from it though. It should be there basically as a hindrance on your way to the end goal. 

For example: I can't guard this crossing, but I can hire this group of NPC's to guard it for me. Will they succeed at it. Most likely not, but they will be a hindrance to my enemy and give me some more time to defend my main objective.

Things such as that, I could see work as far as PvE goes with CU

If you had read anything MJ has said, at all, you would know that this is exactly what he has planned for the game.  There WILL be PvE (NPCs and MOBs) just no character progression or loot drops from it.

Just remember, plans and execution are 2 different things.......

 

No character progression or mob loot - why even have it? It is useless content.

Ugh!  Why do I even try?!

The game is PvP.  The end game is PvP.  The initial game is PvP.  The middle game is PvP.  The raison d'etre is... you guessed it.... PvP.  The goal of the game is to be victorious in PvP... not to be the first one to 50 or the one with the best gear or some other PvE oriented carrot-on-a-stick.

In this context, the term "useless content" is an oxymoron.  If it's content at all, it isn't useless.  You're only perceiving it as useless because your personal goal in an MMO is to "progress."  That's fine for other mainstream games.  That is NOT the focus of this game, as MJ has said about a bzillion times.

EDIT:  I'm using the term "your personal goal" in a general sense, here.  I'm not saying skaaz1 shares that goal.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1134

5/15/13 10:37:39 AM#66
Originally posted by ZedTheRock

Becasue not having PvE is detriment to an mmoRPG.  Progression has always been based on killing mobs and/or questing.  To not include it is to strip a game of the fundamental core system of an MMO.  I liken it to not including a system to determine combat role or to nat having a monetary system for the games economy.

No it has not. In DAOC you progress in RvR by killing enemy players which earns you realm points. After you reach certain levels of total realm points, you are granted realm skill points which you can then spend on realm abilities. CU will have something similar and it will work great.

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2564

5/15/13 10:43:16 AM#67
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by skaaz1

I think there should be some PvE in the game also.

No character advancement from it though. It should be there basically as a hindrance on your way to the end goal. 

For example: I can't guard this crossing, but I can hire this group of NPC's to guard it for me. Will they succeed at it. Most likely not, but they will be a hindrance to my enemy and give me some more time to defend my main objective.

Things such as that, I could see work as far as PvE goes with CU

If you had read anything MJ has said, at all, you would know that this is exactly what he has planned for the game.  There WILL be PvE (NPCs and MOBs) just no character progression or loot drops from it.

Just remember, plans and execution are 2 different things.......

 

No character progression or mob loot - why even have it? It is useless content.

Ugh!  Why do I even try?!

The game is PvP.  The end game is PvP.  The initial game is PvP.  The middle game is PvP.  The raison d'etre is... you guessed it.... PvP.  The goal of the game is to be victorious in PvP... not to be the first one to 50 or the one with the best gear or some other PvE oriented carrot-on-a-stick.

In this context, the term "useless content" is an oxymoron.  If it's content at all, it isn't useless.  You're only perceiving it as useless because your personal goal in an MMO is to "progress."  That's fine for other mainstream games.  That is NOT the focus of this game, as MJ has said about a bzillion times.

EDIT:  I'm using the term "your personal goal" in a general sense, here.  I'm not saying skaaz1 shares that goal.

All I am saying is, in the design, they said the PvE will have the above. That is non-content, really. What I mean by that statement is why would players even do any such thing without any reward? The only reason if it adds something to the over all of the game but saying PvE will be killing mobs and NPC's with no return IS USELESS.

 

Make it all PvP and see how many people will really play. That is what the plan for the game is anyway.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/15/13 10:46:55 AM#68
I'm sure MJ would be more than happy with planetside 2 type numbers. And that's pure pvp.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/15/13 10:50:26 AM#69
Hmm regarding teso

I think there are more "remove all pvp" threads. (or ghetto it off into minigames)

Than there are "make the entire game ffa pvp" threads

Definetly more uproar from the usual eq/swg brigade on the TESO forums than the eve/uo types.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/15/13 10:52:50 AM#70
Oh forgot the other group on the TESO and Indeed the cu threads including this one.

The panicing gw2 zealots scared of some competition to their declining game.
  Ogrelin

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 640

MMORPG-Player - Since 1997!
GM of Svea Ulvar

5/15/13 10:54:24 AM#71

As I understand it mobs WILL drop stuff (hides, leather, bone, scales, claws), not gear or give exp.

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

5/15/13 12:11:25 PM#72
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by skaaz1

I think there should be some PvE in the game also.

No character advancement from it though. It should be there basically as a hindrance on your way to the end goal. 

For example: I can't guard this crossing, but I can hire this group of NPC's to guard it for me. Will they succeed at it. Most likely not, but they will be a hindrance to my enemy and give me some more time to defend my main objective.

Things such as that, I could see work as far as PvE goes with CU

If you had read anything MJ has said, at all, you would know that this is exactly what he has planned for the game.  There WILL be PvE (NPCs and MOBs) just no character progression or loot drops from it.

Just remember, plans and execution are 2 different things.......

 

No character progression or mob loot - why even have it? It is useless content.

Ugh!  Why do I even try?!

The game is PvP.  The end game is PvP.  The initial game is PvP.  The middle game is PvP.  The raison d'etre is... you guessed it.... PvP.  The goal of the game is to be victorious in PvP... not to be the first one to 50 or the one with the best gear or some other PvE oriented carrot-on-a-stick.

In this context, the term "useless content" is an oxymoron.  If it's content at all, it isn't useless.  You're only perceiving it as useless because your personal goal in an MMO is to "progress."  That's fine for other mainstream games.  That is NOT the focus of this game, as MJ has said about a bzillion times.

EDIT:  I'm using the term "your personal goal" in a general sense, here.  I'm not saying skaaz1 shares that goal.

All I am saying is, in the design, they said the PvE will have the above. That is non-content, really. What I mean by that statement is why would playe

rs even do any such thing without any reward? The only reason if it adds something to the over all of the game but saying PvE will be killing mobs and NPC's with no return IS USELESS.

 

Make it all PvP and see how many people will really play. That is what the plan for the game is anyway.

That's where your perception is skewed.  You aren't perceiving a reward because there may be no loot or coin drops... in other words, the only "rewards" you are considering are loot, coin or XP.

There are other reasons for fighting NPCs or MOBs... they may be impediments to a greater goal, they may be guarding an objective, they may be exploiting a resource node or they may just be beating on your head with a blunt axe.

This game will NOT be about leveling or amassing gold or cultivating the top tier template.  You have to re-orient your thinking.

EDIT: And, as has been stated in other posts, NPCs and MOBs may "drop" crafting materials.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1823

5/15/13 1:12:25 PM#73
About PVE ... just off the top of my head:

 

1. There IS pve! Pve mechanics will be bound to RvR mechanics in unique ways. They play a role. In some cases you will be able to take over and control mobs to fight the enemy. In open world RvR when you take over an area the zone changes to match your realm theme. The mobs change as well. Some likely even become your allies in the fight against other realms. BSC ideas included pve like mechanics that hinder veilwalkers. There is also the unknown interaction of the Dragons which will play an active  role in RvR as well.

 

2. Mobs DO have loot! They drop items that can be used for crafting. They do NOT however give xp or drop equipment. Only crafters will make player equipment. Even though you can't level off of mobs you still will be required to hunt what is needed for your crafters, combat mobs in enemy controlled lands to reach your objectives, fight mobs in the Depths that MAY even be controlled by real players and however else CSE decides to use PvE mobs. There could be many ways to utilize them in ways never though of before. Just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean they can't.

 

In general Pve is being used to support and enhance RvR in a lore rich, living fantasy world and isn't designed as a totally separate level mechanic or mini-game that has nothing to do with RvR. It is that simple really.

 

Part of why there isn't "traditional pve" is due to budget (stated by MJ many times). Another reason though is game design. MJ clearly wants PvE to be a system supporting RvR and not just a separate system. MJ seems to have gone out of his way to not call the game a sandbox (I assume he wanted to not be trapped into existing stereotypes) but the game pretty much is that but simply more focused on pvp. I have zero idea on how the game will play once made. I am only stating what should be easily known before posting anything on the subject of PVE.

 

CU is to be an RvR game set in a living world concept rich in lore  ... you know, F A N T A S Y. It isn't just a really big team death match game. If you think it is just a fantasy Planetside then you will never grasp the concept of an rpg game.

You stay sassy!

  Teh_Axi

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

5/15/13 1:30:09 PM#74
Originally posted by botrytis

 No character progression or mob loot - why even have it? It is useless content.

There are two main reasons, firstly they can be a source of resources and secondly they are in themselves an obstacle in the game world. An area that would otherwise be empty terrain can instead be an area with difficult to deal with NPCs. I know its hard for a PvEer to think of NPCs as anything more than walking bags of loot but they can be more than that even in a PvP game.

So no, they arent useless just because they cant be farmed for "epic" items. 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/15/13 1:59:40 PM#75
Planetside isn't "just a really big team death match game"

It's the 2nd best implementation of rvr ever, after daoc.
  MajiinX

Novice Member

Joined: 5/30/07
Posts: 85

 
OP  5/15/13 2:56:24 PM#76

The point I was trying to make and I'm glad other CU loyalists agree with me on this is that this is designed to be an RvR game which creates a very unique environment and experience for players. Adding in PvE can completely creates quite a few problems when making an RvR or PvP focused game here are a few:

 

1. Balancing: When you mix PvP and PvE you create problems in balancing because as you buff and nurf certain things it effects both aspects of the game especially when it comes to things like damage, healing and crowd control then the devs are forced to constantly play a balancing act. Example: A wizards primary damage spell is fireball, fireball is doing an absurd amount of damage in PvP so the devs nurf the damage but as a result the wizards PvE damage has drooped substantially 

2: Content: PvEers blow through content faster then devs can put it out. Devs have to constantly create new dungeons, raids, factions and loot. PvPers on the other hand compete with each other for not just gear but for rank, titles and bragging rights. PvPers will usually play the same arena, maps and battlegrounds for months at a time and we are ok with that in fact look at WoW they still use AV, AB and WSG which are over 8 years old and they have since then only added 1-2 BGs per xpac. 

3: Gear: You have the issue of having different stats for pvp and pve gear and making it so that one set of gear is not viable for the other because you usually end up with having the BiS gear acquired through PvE due to the ilevel usually being higher since raid usually come with higher item level gear.

4: Atmosphere, when you have an RvR game you are constantly fighting, your not safe anywhere you can't just casually go out and gather crating mats, do dailies and things of that nature your realm is in a constant state of war and you have to fight there is danger everywhere and that creates a very different experience. Creating a PvE server and PvE content and safe zones would completely change the atmosphere and experience.

5: And my last reason is logistics: Why should CSE waste time, money and man power to create PvE content when that could be used to help make CU a better RvR experience, sure its a niche game but I think myself and the other backers are totally fine with that.

Oh and I also wanted to point out, that yes there are many games that people complain about not having PvP content and I'm sure it can be frustrating to PvErs but it comes down to the competitive nature of players people enjoy competing against each other and getting together with their guild, faction, friends etc.. and competing with other people its one of the few aspects of MMOs that are purely social unlike PvE which is becoming more and more solo friendly and has gotten to the point in some games where you simply just queue up for a dungeon or a raid and just breeze through the content with minimal interaction with other players.

 

  TigsKC

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 139

5/15/13 3:43:20 PM#77
Originally posted by MajiinX

The point I was trying to make and I'm glad other CU loyalists agree with me on this is that this is designed to be an RvR game which creates a very unique environment and experience for players. Adding in PvE can completely creates quite a few problems when making an RvR or PvP focused game here are a few:

 

1. Balancing: When you mix PvP and PvE you create problems in balancing because as you buff and nurf certain things it effects both aspects of the game especially when it comes to things like damage, healing and crowd control then the devs are forced to constantly play a balancing act. Example: A wizards primary damage spell is fireball, fireball is doing an absurd amount of damage in PvP so the devs nurf the damage but as a result the wizards PvE damage has drooped substantially 

2: Content: PvEers blow through content faster then devs can put it out. Devs have to constantly create new dungeons, raids, factions and loot. PvPers on the other hand compete with each other for not just gear but for rank, titles and bragging rights. PvPers will usually play the same arena, maps and battlegrounds for months at a time and we are ok with that in fact look at WoW they still use AV, AB and WSG which are over 8 years old and they have since then only added 1-2 BGs per xpac. 

3: Gear: You have the issue of having different stats for pvp and pve gear and making it so that one set of gear is not viable for the other because you usually end up with having the BiS gear acquired through PvE due to the ilevel usually being higher since raid usually come with higher item level gear.

4: Atmosphere, when you have an RvR game you are constantly fighting, your not safe anywhere you can't just casually go out and gather crating mats, do dailies and things of that nature your realm is in a constant state of war and you have to fight there is danger everywhere and that creates a very different experience. Creating a PvE server and PvE content and safe zones would completely change the atmosphere and experience.

5: And my last reason is logistics: Why should CSE waste time, money and man power to create PvE content when that could be used to help make CU a better RvR experience, sure its a niche game but I think myself and the other backers are totally fine with that.

Oh and I also wanted to point out, that yes there are many games that people complain about not having PvP content and I'm sure it can be frustrating to PvErs but it comes down to the competitive nature of players people enjoy competing against each other and getting together with their guild, faction, friends etc.. and competing with other people its one of the few aspects of MMOs that are purely social unlike PvE which is becoming more and more solo friendly and has gotten to the point in some games where you simply just queue up for a dungeon or a raid and just breeze through the content with minimal interaction with other players.

Nice post!

Basically, adding PvE servers to CU is like saying, "What this football game needs is more basketball courts!"

 

 

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

5/15/13 6:23:32 PM#78


Originally posted by ShakyMo
Planetside isn't "just a really big team death match game"It's the 2nd best implementation of rvr ever, after daoc.

are you referring to planetside 1 or ...2...

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1823

5/15/13 6:36:14 PM#79
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Planetside isn't "just a really big team death match game"

It's the 2nd best implementation of rvr ever, after daoc.

It's a fps game action game with vehicles, no pve, no crafting and nothing like block/cell based construction nor a player based economy. Totally different genre and approach at RvR. The only thing close to what CU will be is that there are 3 factions fighting each other.

 

Yes it is a massive team death match game compared to DAoC or even what CU will be (CU is actually vastly more sandbox like that DaoC or most mmos for that matter).

 

Also the point I was making had absolutely nothing to do with comparing CU with Planetside. It was about players not understanding what an RvR rpg game is. You reinforced this opinion with your reply.

You stay sassy!

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1134

5/16/13 8:18:39 AM#80
Originally posted by TigsKC

Basically, adding PvE servers to CU is like saying, "What this football game needs is more basketball courts!"

Heh. Or it's like saying, "Your cornerbacks need to win a 3 point shooting contest before they are allowed in the game and they won't be effective at tackling unless they have beaten up an NBA center and now are wearing his jersey."

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

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