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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » No level system , what can replace it ?

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54 posts found
  Prenho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 306

5/14/13 10:30:12 PM#41
I prefer levels, because for me when I reach the end of progression, the game ends. But there are ways to make a game without level, the progression must be through items and skills.
  Magiknight

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 809

5/14/13 10:33:29 PM#42
Originally posted by Prenho
I prefer levels, because for me when I reach the end of progression, the game ends. But there are ways to make a game without level, the progression must be through items and skills.

A real MMO should never end :( Like you said, most do when you reach max level. Or at least there is only raiding and PVP to do at endgame.

  Prenho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 306

5/14/13 10:42:56 PM#43
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by Prenho
I prefer levels, because for me when I reach the end of progression, the game ends. But there are ways to make a game without level, the progression must be through items and skills.

A real MMO should never end :( Like you said, most do when you reach max level. Or at least there is only raiding and PVP to do at endgame.

Yes, I like to be in constant progression-farming in MMO, because of this I can't stay more than 1 month in most MMOs nowadays.

WoW, GW2, and others are good examples, 1 month playing and the game had no meaning for me anymore.

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 307

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

5/15/13 12:03:49 AM#44

To me, the way you develop your character can be a compelling part of gameplay, beside whether or not to use standardized levels or separately developed stats, character development can consist of combat (hopefully renewably challenging combat), as well as all sorts of activities or endeavors such as exercise, mystical education, sparring, combat observation, apprenticing, so on so forth, not to mention the gear acquisition and creation elements.

Various activities which are spelled out in different methods can be used to grow and achieve which add diversity, but hopefully are done in interesting and amusing ways. Fitting in story, characters, and minigames which are fun to play on their own, and combining them can allow an MMO to be the every game you'd expect from what you intend to spend obnoxious amounts of time on.

Now if the stats are developed separately, or in various couplings, than more activities can be devised to develop each, or various couplings. Given the fact that many MMOs fail to even have compelling combat, adding this measure of diversity and depth is a great way to improve the experience. Many console RPGs with better gameplay expected to last an insignificant fraction of the time spent in comparison to an MMORPG have litters of Minigames just to clear and area, to get an item, or make some money, yet games which are expected to entertain you THOUSANDS of times longer don't even have minigames as decent as a basic browser based puzzle...

If theirs one thing my first MMO engrained in me, and the reason why I haven't committed to an MMO since, is that if I'm going to put that kind of time into a game, it's gonna be to enjoy myself, it's going to be incredibly fun for hours on end, the every day typical activity is going to be fun! I'm past that phase where achieving and growing characters is entertaining, I've done thousands of hours.... hundreds of thousands of hours in RPG character development, and I'm done, I don't wanna do it just for the sake of doing it, not anymore, not in another game. I expect my RPGs to be fun to actually play now, I have nothing against those who haven't moved on from that amusement, but it's not good enough for me anymore, I need strategy, and tactics, or action or puzzles, I need gameplay, tacking on character development is fine so long as it's done it good taste, but plain old milling mundane gameplay endlessly just to develop my character, it's no good anymore.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  DrunkWolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 1184

5/15/13 12:18:14 AM#45

Im really surprised nobody has copied Asherons Call leveling system. its pretty simple and works really well.

as you kill mobs or turn in quest  you get whats called unassigned XP, you can save up this XP as long as you want and when ever you want you use it to raise up any skill you have. for example

I kill a Shadow and gain 15k xp towards my level and also gain 15k unassigned XP,  My sword skill cost 100 XP to raise it one point, so i spend some of my unassigned XP and raise it a point. now it cost 175 XP to raise it again and so on. each skill and attribute is raised like this in the game.

plus raising attributes also raises skills, for example. every 2 points i raise in strength or coordination will raise my sword skill a point, or every 2 points into quick/coord will raise melee D and so on.

Levels are still good because every 5 levels or so you get a skill point to train other skills if you want. but levels arnt everything in the game.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6388

5/15/13 12:28:55 AM#46
Originally posted by DrunkWolf

Im really surprised nobody has copied Asherons Call leveling system. its pretty simple and works really well.

as you kill mobs or turn in quest  you get whats called unassigned XP, you can save up this XP as long as you want and when ever you want you use it to raise up any skill you have. for example

I kill a Shadow and gain 15k xp towards my level and also gain 15k unassigned XP,  My sword skill cost 100 XP to raise it one point, so i spend some of my unassigned XP and raise it a point. now it cost 175 XP to raise it again and so on. each skill and attribute is raised like this in the game.

plus raising attributes also raises skills, for example. every 2 points i raise in strength or coordination will raise my sword skill a point, or every 2 points into quick/coord will raise melee D and so on.

Levels are still good because every 5 levels or so you get a skill point to train other skills if you want. but levels arnt everything in the game.

because thats more "Obvious" Grind.

Better the grind is hidden now days the better the game is in the public eye.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

5/15/13 3:38:26 AM#47

DayZ is example of how mmo could be no stats lvls xp armor or any enhancement just what you find you use to survive no increase health armor or any defense just weapons and survival stuff like drinks and food medicine to survive.

Ultimate survival game if some just enter game with nothing and find a handgun and he see a guy playing for days full packed with all uber loot he can kill him with one shot or several good aimed axe blows.

World also feels mmo hope dean rocket hall delivers and servers can handle 200 players im all for DayZ standalone.

Pure survival simulator and you can destroy and build alot pure sandbox.

  MikeJezZ

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 1205

Only in death, does duty end.

5/15/13 3:44:26 AM#48
Eve Online's system is pretty nice.

Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  IAmMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/08
Posts: 1355

5/15/13 4:13:18 AM#49

 What can replace it? Building actual virtual worlds where the game becomes about the community creating a virtual society within.  The progression should be the person getting better at the game with time and not the game making you better with time. Starting out should  be about the lack of money, weapons, resources, armor  and reputation. Instead of Level 1 go level up to earn your abilities and money etc. You should start out with access to all abilities in the game for a character you make. How you kit out determines what abilities you can use. Realtime combat is the way forward for making it about the player getting better at the game with time, and not  about game making the player better with time.

 

  Crafting should be about the money, equipment and resources, not crafting for hours to reach a level to make a better item. The better the item you're trying to make the more money and bits of different resources you'll need which will come from dangerous areas in the world.  Dynamic mobs and seamless worlds area must to fit this into.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 17508

5/15/13 4:28:24 AM#50

Pen and paper games have had many solutions for this in the past and I see no reason why they shouldn't work in MMOs as well. Here are a few:

Shadowrun: Karma. When you complete stuff you get karma which you use to buy skill increases and other stuff. Simple and works, a lot more flexible than levels.

Basic roleplaying/Runequest: Skill based. When you use a skill it will increase. In some versions all skills you used for a day/session have a chanse to increase depending on high they are at the time, in others your skills get XP every time you crit and raising increases with how high the skill is. Simple and similar systems have actually been used in MMOs before. Note that hitpoints dont increase in RQ.

Vampire/World of darkness: Experience points. You get XP for time played and buy stuff for those points, sometimes you get bonuspoints as well. Simple.

Warhammer: Class progression. In WHFRPG you start as a pathetic class, like ratcatcher and as you gain XP you slowly fill it out and can change to cooler classes as you go. You can have unlimited number of classes but there is a limit to how high you attributes can go.

These are all basic mechanics that have worked in P&P games for many years. All of them are more flexible than levels and you might need to put on a "Reccomended" button to not confuse noobs. Respeccing should be pretty expensive in some of the systems though.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 17508

5/15/13 4:33:08 AM#51
Originally posted by Prenho
I prefer levels, because for me when I reach the end of progression, the game ends. But there are ways to make a game without level, the progression must be through items and skills.

There is also attributes, feats, hitpoints and player skill... And probably a few more things.

Levels is just a fast and simple way to handle progression but it is hardly the best, all characters of the same class and level tends to be very similar with levels.

 

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1064

5/15/13 6:39:14 AM#52

There's systems that could replace levels. Look at EvE or TSW for example. Both systems are based on horizontal progression rather than vertical.

Vertical systems are usually the level-systems, where you climb the ladder until you reach the top, and then you start the gear-grind.

A horizontal system let's people hop into "endgame" much earlier, allthough they haven't maxed all talents and skills before. The horizontal system let's you specialize early on, and then opens more options afterwards, without making you any stronger really (increasing HP, dps, etc).

Anyways, there's another option, that no developer has tried so far, and that would be an aproach found in some pen&paper RPGs like Shadowrun for example. Create a character and play it as it is, with no skill/talent-progresssion at all. A system like this would even allow for permadeath, as you don't loose anything really but only some gear and credits you haven't put into the account-wide storage/bank.
A system like this would be awesome for a sandbox-MMO.

So yeah, there's atleast these two systems that could totally replace the odd level-systems found in most MMOs.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3585

5/15/13 6:43:21 AM#53

Any form of progression system is a level system. The problem with most MMO level systems is that they create too many restrictions. Silly arbitrary chosen gated content and outleveled content that becomes meaningless as a result.

So I don't think it needs replacement, just better implementation.

 

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1881

5/15/13 6:53:02 AM#54

A few have used EVE as an example but to clarify, EVE in the way you fit your ships, not the way you skill out.

If a land based MMO had the EVE ship fitting method of creating templates for your character the possibilities would be unlimited. It wouldn't matter if they gave you the eternal template options EVE gives through SP building. It could require you to limit yourself to 6 or 8 and you drop and pick them up according to what you wanted at the time. It's a gear based game that has huge variety in the type of gear and even the quality in each type and people can spend weeks just testing various fits .aka gear templates.

 

Levels are not the end all be all for games or MMO games.

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