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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » No level system , what can replace it ?

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54 posts found
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/14/13 4:22:07 PM#21

You miss hell levels?  Really?

I mean they are called "hell" levels for a reason.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/14/13 4:23:46 PM#22
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

You miss hell levels?  Really?

I mean they are called "hell" levels for a reason.

 I absolutely hate hitting max level in today's MMO so quickly. There's no achievement and there's no value in the gear you obtain during the process of the game. So yes, I hate the fact that there aren't hell levels anymore.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/14/13 4:25:47 PM#23
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

You miss hell levels?  Really?

I mean they are called "hell" levels for a reason.

 I absolutely hate hitting max level in today's MMO so quickly. There's no achievement and there's no value in the gear you obtain during the process of the game. So yes, I hate the fact that there aren't hell levels anymore.

So what if leveling took a year or so, like in old EQ, but didn't have hell levels.

Would you still want them?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/14/13 4:26:41 PM#24
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

You miss hell levels?  Really?

I mean they are called "hell" levels for a reason.

 I absolutely hate hitting max level in today's MMO so quickly. There's no achievement and there's no value in the gear you obtain during the process of the game. So yes, I hate the fact that there aren't hell levels anymore.

So what if leveling took a year or so, like in old EQ, but didn't have hell levels.

Would you still want them?

Well if the game took a year to play I wouldn't complain. However, hell levels are essentially what drew out the length of time it took to level through the game. I also do play games with hell levels that make Everquest's look like a joke in comparison. So the grind doesn't bother me that much.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  User Deleted
5/14/13 4:28:24 PM#25
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

 What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

 

There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

 

No developer is stupid enough to have hell levels in their games. (Wrong. There are developers this stupid. They just don't count as real developers due to the fact they're spawned from Satan himself.) They were called "hell levels" because no one liked them. Instead, request, find, or invent a feature that prevents EZ-MODE without resorting to a feature that 99.99999% of players are disgusted with.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/14/13 4:29:54 PM#26
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

 What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

 

There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

 We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

 I also know that the MMO genre isn't niche anymore. Any kid and their parents play the game now and I most like won't see the  difficulty level in an MMO ever again.

 However, enjoy the barrage of MMO's that only take a week to beat because developers are catering to the casual crowd.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  User Deleted
5/14/13 4:32:19 PM#27
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

 What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

 

There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

 

What does the speed of progression of "beating" a MMO in a week have anything to do with whether or not there are hell levels?

Do you really not understand the nearly limitless number of applications that could change a game from being too "easy" for people who play a lot?

Or the multitude of variables that ACTUALLY cause these games to be progressed through so quickly?

 

If you truly think not having hell levels is the only reason games are so easy to "beat" in a week, I think you fail to grasp literally ANYTHING about game design. I'd question if you even played games.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/14/13 4:38:33 PM#28
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

 What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

 

There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

 

What does the speed of progression of "beating" a MMO in a week have anything to do with whether or not there are hell levels?

Do you really not understand the nearly limitless number of applications that could change a game from being too "easy" for people who play a lot?

Or the multitude of variables that ACTUALLY cause these games to be progressed through so quickly?

 

If you truly think not having hell levels is the only reason games are so easy to "beat" in a week, I think you fail to grasp literally ANYTHING about game design. I'd question if you even played games.

 Easy, I beat Neverwinter on my Guardian Fighter. It took me /played 3 days 3 hours to level to 60 and obtain my entire T2 set of gear. When I progressed through the game I was leveling so fast that there was no need to even do side content. There wasn't even any grind in the game. I never once during my process of leveling through the game needed to equip gems into my gear because I out leveled my equipment so much.

 The same thing happens in every other MMO that I've played in the past 2-4 years. The only exception to this that I've noticed was Warhammer Online mainly because the true leveling curve within the game was RvR levels and it took a significant amount of time to level up.

 You will never see the "limitless" amounts of implementation to "slow" the curve in leveling because people don't want it. The "grind" is too much for the casual player ( such as yourself seeing as you don't want "hell levels").


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3740

RIP City of Heroes!

5/14/13 4:38:59 PM#29
Originally posted by mbd1968
Just do skill based... hit things with your sword and you get better at using your sword, etc. Hit things with a sword while wearing heavy armor and blocking with your shield makes you better with a sword and shield and more agile in your heavy armor.

 But also add in a de-leveling system when fighting scrubs and mobs below your skill level.

  User Deleted
5/14/13 4:41:43 PM#30
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

You miss hell levels?  Really?

I mean they are called "hell" levels for a reason.

I find it best to block users like this. I don't think they grasp what a video game is.

Perhaps they just communicate so drastically differently than most people, that we simply do not understand their thoughts or ideas.

I mean, someone cannot possibly actually miss "hell levels". They are literally called "hell levels" because literally EVERYONE, with the exception of perhaps delusional psychotics, hated these levels.

 

People would actually power level, progress with RL cash -> chinese PL farmer, cheat, AFK, or watch TV / surf internet while playing the game in a window.

 

 

I actually remember one time, when me and my friend were playing City of Heroes. We were in a full group, and we were fully into the game, enjoying it because that's why we were playing it. One group member spoke about how he is "multi-tasking" watching a movie, doing a task, and playing the game at the same time. Instantly, every group member starting talking about what they were doing.

None of them were actually playing the game, and I severely doubt that many were having fun. They were all doing multiple other tasks instead, while grinding. After I poked around a bit, they all admitted they weren't playing for fun, they were playing to grind. Needless to say, I was appalled and shocked, even with all my experience playing MMO's in the past. It wasn't just one or two, it was the entire group.

This is when I really began to think about how many MMO gamers don't play the game because of the fun elements, they play for the satisfaction elements or even more common the grind of trying to get to a level where the game BECOMES fun.

 

 

There is definitely a problem with games, when they are so easy that you can basically AFK grind through dungeons. There is definitely a problem with games, when they don't capture the player and immerse them into a world of wonder and adventure.

However...Hell levels is the opposite of the solution. They would cause MORE of this type of behavior. More endless hours spent by most players trying to "get to the fun parts". Fortunately for most players, they know that it is a waste of their life to "work to have fun" when playing a game. There is quite a big reason I did not resub to many many MMO's after giving it another try, and having a blast with my friend. You had to macro or grind for a month before being viable to play the game. Who wants to work for a month just to be able to have fun? This is just silly.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/14/13 4:48:55 PM#31
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

You miss hell levels?  Really?

I mean they are called "hell" levels for a reason.

I find it best to block users like this. I don't think they grasp what a video game is.

I find it very interesting that you only find fun in a game is the end where the game has nothing else to do. That's fine for you but I do enjoy playing through the game and I love insanely high level caps. It gives me plenty of time to enjoy the equipment that I obtain through doing dungeons. I hope you love getting your epics in your endgame dungeon and doing absolutely nothing with them. Because that's what you get from the current state of the genre.

Perhaps they just communicate so drastically differently than most people, that we simply do not understand their thoughts or ideas.

I mean, someone cannot possibly actually miss "hell levels". They are literally called "hell levels" because literally EVERYONE, with the exception of perhaps delusional psychotics, hated these levels.

 

People would actually power level, progress with RL cash -> chinese PL farmer, cheat, AFK, or watch TV / surf internet while playing the game in a window.

 

 

I actually remember one time, when me and my friend were playing City of Heroes. We were in a full group, and we were fully into the game, enjoying it because that's why we were playing it. One group member spoke about how he is "multi-tasking" watching a movie, doing a task, and playing the game at the same time. Instantly, every group member starting talking about what they were doing.

None of them were actually playing the game, and I severely doubt that many were having fun. They were all doing multiple other tasks instead, while grinding. After I poked around a bit, they all admitted they weren't playing for fun, they were playing to grind. Needless to say, I was appalled and shocked, even with all my experience playing MMO's in the past. It wasn't just one or two, it was the entire group.

This is when I really began to think about how many MMO gamers don't play the game because of the fun elements, they play for the satisfaction elements or even more common the grind of trying to get to a level where the game BECOMES fun.

The leveling grind in a game is fun to me. Doing dungeons on the side to help me level is even more fun. However, getting to endgame to do 5-10 different raids or dungeons that lead to no where aren't fun. Which is why I dislike end game because that's essentially the end of the game. 

 

 

There is definitely a problem with games, when they are so easy that you can basically AFK grind through dungeons. There is definitely a problem with games, when they don't capture the player and immerse them into a world of wonder and adventure.

However...Hell levels is the opposite of the solution. They would cause MORE of this type of behavior. More endless hours spent by most players trying to "get to the fun parts". Fortunately for most players, they know that it is a waste of their life to "work to have fun" when playing a game. There is quite a big reason I did not resub to many many MMO's after giving it another try, and having a blast with my friend. You had to macro or grind for a month before being viable to play the game. Who wants to work for a month just to be able to have fun? This is just silly.

I find it quite hilarious that you're only thinking that the end game is the only "fun" part of the game. That's what I completely dislike. I don't want to hit the end game. Because there's never an end game that's able to hold my attention. I want a leveling progression that I can dedicate my time to enjoying the adventure. If you think otherwise that's your opinion.

 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1631

5/14/13 4:51:32 PM#32
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

 What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

 

There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

 I also know that the MMO genre isn't niche anymore. Any kid and their parents play the game now and I most like won't see the  difficulty level in an MMO ever again.

Don't mistake leveling speed with difficulty. I haven't ever played a mmo where leveling was hard, but I have played many mmos where leveling was made artificially tedious. If content is challenging, that's great, but the content needs to be challenging intelligently. Such as, mobs who use CC and tactics to try to kill the player. However, if content is going to be "challenging" because you need 80 million xps to level and earn it at a rate of 200xps, and you and the mobs are playing whack-a-mole (which is what most "challenging" content has been in mmos), that's poor design.

More on topic:

Leveling systems exist because many gamers are goal oriented. Without something to readily measure their progress they will most likely become bored. Additionally, having some form of "end game" is important to many mmo gamers, just look at how much discussion exists pertaining to end game content. You don't need levels to have end game content, but how will you know when you reach end game in a leveless system? Simply put, the level system is the easiest way to design and gate content. Anyone who has ever been in any type of design class can tell you that the KISS method (keep it simple stupid) is pounded into you, because simple is often the best way to go. You can add layers to a simple structure after the fact.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/14/13 4:57:22 PM#33
Originally posted by Kaneth
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

 What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

 

There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

 I also know that the MMO genre isn't niche anymore. Any kid and their parents play the game now and I most like won't see the  difficulty level in an MMO ever again.

Don't mistake leveling speed with difficulty. I haven't ever played a mmo where leveling was hard, but I have played many mmos where leveling was made artificially tedious. If content is challenging, that's great, but the content needs to be challenging intelligently. Such as, mobs who use CC and tactics to try to kill the player. However, if content is going to be "challenging" because you need 80 million xps to level and earn it at a rate of 200xps, and you and the mobs are playing whack-a-mole (which is what most "challenging" content has been in mmos), that's poor design.

More on topic:

Leveling systems exist because many gamers are goal oriented. Without something to readily measure their progress they will most likely become bored. Additionally, having some form of "end game" is important to many mmo gamers, just look at how much discussion exists pertaining to end game content. You don't need levels to have end game content, but how will you know when you reach end game in a leveless system? Simply put, the level system is the easiest way to design and gate content. Anyone who has ever been in any type of design class can tell you that the KISS method (keep it simple stupid) is pounded into you, because simple is often the best way to go. You can add layers to a simple structure after the fact.

 If you slow the progression of leveling for the players they're able to at least enjoy the content you've created within the game. I believe none of you are even thinking of what I enjoy about the "hell levels". I can obtain gear that I get during those points in time and enjoy them for a substantial amount of time after that. However, with the new MMO's you don't even get to enjoy the equipment in dungeons at all because they're replaced so rapidly.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/14/13 4:57:22 PM#34

He likes grinding thats fine, it explains why he likes hell levels.

I would then submit that because you like it, it's not monotonous or boring thus not a grind.  Different argument though.

No other issues here, he likes that part of the game.

Personally I'm at odds about them.  I would like to say that I don't care how long it takes to level, which is largely true (never been to end game in any game anyway, never even finished a video game actually) however I really did notice and hated those hell levels, perhaps because it felt too monotonous and repetitious for me. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2821

5/14/13 5:00:27 PM#35
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

He likes grinding thats fine, it explains why he likes hell levels.

I would then submit that because you like it, it's not monotonous or boring thus not a grind.  Different argument though.

No other issues here, he likes that part of the game.

Personally I'm at odds about them.  I would like to say that I don't care how long it takes to level, which is largely true (never been to end game in any game anyway, never even finished a video game actually) however I really did notice and hated those hell levels, perhaps because it felt too monotonous and repetitious for me. 

 Yeah, I understand completely that a grind based game isn't for everyone. Which is why I tend to play more eastern style games because they're more into the long term progression than the short end game experience that the western audience enjoys.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6111

5/14/13 6:07:19 PM#36
I feel that all of you are looking at this the wrong way, which is why you are having a hard time coming up with a replacement. My MMO idea also doesn't have levels, yet it has a different way of handling progression that requires the new MMO gamer's mindset theory to be active.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

5/14/13 6:14:14 PM#37

If I want to play a game without leveling etc...I don't play anything with the term RPG in it.Levels and stastics are part of what defined the  CRPG genre and hence the MMORPG genre.

If I want don't want to play a game in first person that has guns in it.I don't play FPS games I don't go to a FPS forum and demand that the genre change.

Now there is plenty of place for MMOs that are not RPGs but that not the same as trying to change MMORPGs.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

5/14/13 6:15:20 PM#38

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6111

5/14/13 10:27:59 PM#39
Originally posted by Drakynn

If I want to play a game without leveling etc...I don't play anything with the term RPG in it.Levels and stastics are part of what defined the  CRPG genre and hence the MMORPG genre.

If I want don't want to play a game in first person that has guns in it.I don't play FPS games I don't go to a FPS forum and demand that the genre change.

Now there is plenty of place for MMOs that are not RPGs but that not the same as trying to change MMORPGs.

Levels don't define RPG, just like guns don't define FPS. It's just mostly done with those features in it. But they don't define the genre.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 746

5/14/13 10:30:03 PM#40
What about the flaming pile of crap system? I like that one.
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