Trending Games | World of Warcraft | Shards | Neverwinter | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

    Facebook Twitter YouTube
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:3,027,771 Users Online:0
Games:843  Posts:6,483,545
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online AD2460 ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord 2 Archlord X Armored Warfare Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Bionic Marine Command Online Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blackguards 2 Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodborne Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chroma Squad Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crowfall Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Heart Online Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dying Light Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthlock: Festival of Magic Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Fable Legends Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
GRAV GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods Rush Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Hand of Fate Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Immune Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online Kill Strain King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lords of the Fallen 2 Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Hunter 4: Ultimate Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Necropolis Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Nova Genesis Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Chronicles Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Coast Legends Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Banner Saga 2 The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Trapped Dead: Lockdown Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utherous Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles 3D Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Levels

3 Pages 1 2 3 » Search
56 posts found

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 16297

OP  5/13/13 4:14:25 PM#1

There is no question that leveling in an MMO is one of the main features of any game. In his latest column, Matt Miller talks about levels and leveling and much more. See what Matt has to say before launching into the comments to continue the discussion.

The “level cap” of an MMO is an important statistic to many people. These people will judge an MMO using just this bullet point. When Dungeons and Dragons Online launched with “10 levels”, a vast majority of players wrote it off as not having enough content. The fact that each “level” was subdivided with bonuses and perks for each partial level achieved was something that they wouldn’t even know unless they played the game (or had someone tell them, as I did trying to convince my friends to play).

Read more Matt Miller: Levels.

"We as MMO gamers need to get past the concept of levels = content."

Associate Editor:
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom


Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 136

5/14/13 8:20:45 AM#2

Levels are important, but disive a game with "level sectore" is a bad idea ..


Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/04
Posts: 102

Never sacrifice freedom for security

5/14/13 8:28:47 AM#3
Nice column. Apart from the obvious "coh 2!" remark which is bursting from my brain. Leveling is something that i used to love, now it appears as an obstacle. I would love it to be entirely free roam gear based. The only issue i can see is new players may feel alienated due to how far ahead veterans are. PvP could be an issue too due to the gear difference.

again, nice write up :)

  User Deleted
5/14/13 8:40:16 AM#4
Leveling to me is important, but not from a leveling for enjoyment perspective. Leveling to me serves as a hidden tutorial so to speak. It gets you acquainted with your class and lets you get a feel for the skills on a progressive basis. I dont think 90 levels is necessasry and I dont think it should take more than 20 hours of gametime to reach cap. If your playing an mmorpg you want to play with other people. So get everyone familiar with 20 hours of hidden tutorial aka leveling and get them on the same page. That way we are not waiting on each other to reach cap, and we are not just getting everything but the kitchen sink thrown at us right out of the gate.

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/15/08
Posts: 37

5/14/13 8:57:03 AM#5
Quite interesting, how does Matt feels about TSW way of "levelling"?

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 7209

5/14/13 9:22:09 AM#6

Levels are the absolute dumbest thing to be introduced into MMO's ever.  Give me a skill based game anytime or if you have to have levels at least institute them like Asheron's Call did where they are essentially meaningless beyond indication of progression.  AC1 also had a high initial level cap of over 100 which it took years for people to reach.

Gear was not level based in AC1 either, it was skill based.  You got points every level to put into your skills.  Still one of the better designed MMO's out there for  the mechanic design.

UO had no levels and still was a great game.  Neither did SWG initially.



Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14702

5/14/13 9:22:48 AM#7

How you use levels needs to fit around what you want to do with the game.  If you start by saying, we're going to have 50 levels, and then change other game design decisions to fit that, then you're doing it wrong.

I kind of wonder how it would be received if a game said, we're going to take the normal size of levels and subdivide them so that we'll have a level cap of 500.


Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/10
Posts: 56

5/14/13 9:27:50 AM#8
Levels are a tool, it's all about how you use it. If, in a multiplayer game, you use levels to separate players from each other then there is something wrong with your approach...

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/04
Posts: 3

5/14/13 9:29:23 AM#9

Levels in a game give me three things: a guide line to follow, a goal while playing, and a sense of achievement for playing. I have played many games since the computer age and the lack of structure, the lack of achievements and the lack of accomplishment equals the lack of fun. That being said the best game that gave me all three was City of Heroes, especially the sense of accomplishment. The badge system was very rewarding for me (probably because of my time in the Boy Scouts), and gave me a secondary goal while I played-even at maxed level. Now one game I play that doesn't have levels but progress based on time/skill points is EVE. Their system will allow you to use any item in the game but it lacks structure as compared to  a level based game. I will add they have went to great links to improve this but its no where near the quality of level based games. EVE's system allows you to be anything you want to be as long as you are willing to put in the time to train you skills online or off but it lacks the sense of achievement needed to keep playing. I remember not playing EVE for 30 some odd days while a skill trained up so I could fly a better ship and paid for those 30 days with no sense of accomplishment what so ever-an empty feeling. I might add though EVE is based on PvP with only a minor focus on PvE where the lack of direction comes from and really gets players confused on where to begin. To sum it up, level base games are needed for structure, direction and accomplishment.


Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 7148

5/14/13 9:48:05 AM#10

Like the poster above me, levels provide a measurement of progress, a goal setting mechanism, and a sense of achievement (which is tied to the progress).

My favorite leveling system was Lineage because although there was a cap, the xp curve was tremendous and took quite a while to meet.  It almost seemed the intention was not so much to meet it, but to provide a never ending sense of progression.

I'm not a fan of fast level to cap and then grind gear.  Even alternate advancement systems are no replacement for the level progression.  At best they supplement it and add depth.

Like another poster said above, how levels and caps are designed should depend on the game mechanics not the other way around.  Matt mentioned the paradigm of leveling solo and then grouping at cap.  Many games hold to this and though they provide a blend of both while leveling or at cap, the foundation is leveling = solo and cap = group gear grind.  That's not fun for me.

What made leveling fun in Lineage was that there was no specific group or solo content.  The game was open world pvp with an xp death penalty.  People grouped for safety and efficiency.  They also grouped to take on tougher mobs than their level would allow.

Most games now aren't fun for me at level cap.  I'm not interested in gear grinding or contrived group content.  I don't mind systems where leveling is obfuscated or relegated to another system (EVE and TSW), but none of my games right now gives me that same sense of progression that Lineage did.


Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/12
Posts: 299

Nemo me impune lacessit.

5/14/13 9:48:35 AM#11
As long as I can improve my skills and stats over time through use, I'd love to see levels done away with.

Have flask; will travel.


Elite Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 2055

5/14/13 9:51:11 AM#12
The system that Age Of Wushu uses works best.

Coolermaster Cosmos II Case
Corsair AX1200W Modular PSU
Intel Core i7 3970X OC 4.50GHz
Asus P9X79 PRO Intel X7
16GB (4x4GB) DDR3 PC3-1866MHz
840 Series 250GB SSDs
Seagate Barracuda 2TB HDDs


Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 589

5/14/13 9:53:47 AM#13

What’s your opinion of levels? Love them? Hate them? Have a better idea?

A quick indicator of overall character progression is helpful when competing against players or NPCs.

Is gear the answer to gating content? Should content be gated at all?

Expected progression (gear + character exp) and player aptitude should guide difficulty tuning, but I prefer the sandbox "go anywhere" approach (seamless world).  Let me wander into dangerous areas and get chased away by aggressive monsters instead of giving me a portal to click on that displays the message "sorry you are not XX level to enter".

Right now MMOs are stuck in a rut, and I’m curious to know what you guys think of this single aspect and how it can grow and modernize.

The path to "modernize" or revolutionize MMO leveling is to look for inspiration from first-generation games such as Ultima Online or Asheron's Call.  Place the burden of character experience distribution amongst attributes and skills on the player.

Darkfall: Unholy Wars employs a refreshing level system.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 68

5/14/13 9:54:32 AM#14

Levels were not the only way to do things from the early days of role playing games. Runequest used a skill based system. In many ways it was totally different from D&D and Chaosium still uses its BRP (Basic Role Playing) system to this day for games.


I am not sure how it would translate into an MMO where players demand instant gratification from the system to compel them forward. MMO's are a competitive sport now and we mine them like gold or drill them like oil until the precious substance is gone and then move on. So a system where skills moved up incrementally from use and a player had REAL choices about how to make their character and what path to follow might not be desirable by the game paying public. Right there is the crux of the issue: convincing the current slate of game payers i.e. those who spend the money on MMOs OR convincing different people to spend money on a non-traditional MMO.

Just My 2 Lunars


Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2676

5/14/13 9:54:37 AM#15

"MMO gamers need to get past the concept of levels = content."  agreed.

TSW is great with its horizontal development and the "soft levels" of 1-10 (too bad it has a huge gear grind in the end, but that's needed only for Nightmares)

STO has only 5 ranks (6 if you count your rookie starting Lt.) but I always say it has 50 levels because I met the same experience you detailed in the column... When I told a buddy there are 5 "levels" and you're progressing continously as you play he said it's a lame concept. "my bad, slip of the tongue, it has 50 levels, not 5  - oh, that's awesome" :) I guess you can't help a powerleveler-type of a player...


Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1199

5/14/13 10:08:00 AM#16

Levels aren't "content", they are a measuring stick.

TSW isn't levelless, just look at the LFG channel and see all the "QL-X healer/dps/tank LF X dungeon"

That is the truth right there. You cant have a levelless experience n a RPG, since levelless means no development. Be it gear, skill, or just flat leveling, it has to be there.

I do support a more "open concept" to leveling, and very much like the DF:UW, and the TSW system of spending my points how I like. The issue with this is when an inexperienced player misspends, and ends up gimped. This I have experience with as I ended up having to replay through several zones to gain fresh AP/SP to spend to fix my gimpy build. A personal fail I know but still one that drove me from the game.  


Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/13
Posts: 7

5/14/13 10:09:18 AM#17

I don’t think that levels are the problem in MMO’s today, its more so how the developers fail to realize on what leveling should entail.  KingofHartz said this as well, and I’ll say it again.  Leveling should be your tutorial of the game.  Leveling should provide you all the tools to learn how to play your character, while progressing thru the story of said game.  It’s when developers get waaaaay to into all of their quests; they end up forgetting what players are going to do after they just breezed thru their 300 hundred quests in 24 hours.  There has to be that sweet spot where you are satisfied with what you just accomplish leveling thru the game, but then have the whole world unlocked to you on what to do next.  And that’s where I think most games miss their mark……..

That being said I think the main problem with MMO’s right now is the lack of progression systems after you reach the level cap.  Yes purples are nice and all, but I think it’s vital that games start having ways to power up your character aside from getting purples.

I’ll use your CoH for example :).  The Incarnate system was probably one of the best after level cap progression ideas I’ve seen thus far.  Although unfinished, whenever I got that new power or passive on my character, I was excited because I knew that getting it, would make me that much more powerful.  That to me was pretty groundbreaking, because getting excited over something that wasn’t a piece of gear was not the norm…….

DCUO is another game ill mention because after you hit cap, you still had ways to progress your character.  Now they may have killed two birds with one stone, with having one of the only achievement systems actually mean something, other than titles and mounts.  Skill points gave you that extra edge in that game, and since they were tied to achievements, it also gave you a reason to get out in the world and want to have them, other than just for your epeen. 

But yea developers need to stop making their game all about the levels and see it for what it is, a tutorial.  It should progress you thru the story while teaching you how to play your character, it should not be the majority of your game.


Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1147

5/14/13 10:15:02 AM#18

"all too often gamers will look at the level cap of a game and determine if it is worth their time"

Do they really? I do pretty much the opposite. I look at what a game will require me to do at the level cap then decide if that's something I'd enjoy. If it is (usually means it has some kind of RvR system and little to no raiding), then it doesn't really matter to me whether the level cap is 40, 50, 80, or 100. The pace of leveling is different from game to game anyway so level 50 in one game could take more time to reach than level 80 in another.

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer


Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/04
Posts: 15

5/14/13 10:28:40 AM#19

I have to say, I love levels. I hate reaching the level-cap in a game as I feel that it usually means the story has largely finished and everything I do has little purpose from that point. I don't care for gear-grinding, personally I don't care what sword or breastplate my character is rocking, as long as I feel I'm progressing up that level ladder.

I'd love there to be an almost unattainable amount of levels so that you could continually progress, but as I mentioned, this would have to be tied into an ongoing story so would be impractical.


Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 65

5/14/13 11:08:00 AM#20
I loved the Guild Wars leveling system. Anet did it right when they set the cap at 20 but allowed you to still gain XP and skill points. This allowed you to unlock all the skills for all professions on your toon and also kept a level playing field(if you don't count those that made the innovative and seldom used builds). Now I just wish Anet would revert back to that system for GW2.

3 Pages 1 2 3 » Search