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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We've removed the healer class - What about the tank as well?

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108 posts found
  theAsna

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 303

5/12/13 3:53:53 PM#21


"... MMOs should just keep the most populated roles. That being damage and support. ..."


What exactly are Tank and Healer roles? They support the party with different abilities / skills. The first role exerts some kind of CC (i.e. binds opponents and prevents them from attacking other party members). Other classes may offer better and more versatile forms of CC (i.e. that works both in PvP and PvE). Since the tank is supposed to be more durable but not invincible he/she needs some healing. That's where the second role comes into play which will take care of the tank and with a lesser priority the other party members.


Removing these two roles from MMOs won't change much in PvP. Most of the tank's special abilities work on NPCs but not so well on human players. Healers are usually the target of focus fire if the enemy team plays smart. Tanks and Healers work best in PvP when their teams support them likewise. But that requires more than just the "Fast Food PvP" that you see especially in themepark MMOs.


Regarding PvE things look different. A lot depends on the exact game mechanics. Some MMOs allow players to run through NPCs and other Players. Under such conditions removing aggro mechanics and the trinity is not going to work smoothly. If a game doesn't allow players to run through opponents then things might work better due to blocking techniques (in combination with narrow passages) being now a valid option.

 

The bottom line is that it's easier to build a new game with certain game mechanics in mind than changing existing games in such a radical way.

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

5/12/13 3:59:48 PM#22
Originally posted by Thresh
GW2 has done away with the trinity. Look at its group PvE combat - pisspoor at best. Bunch of people chaotically rolling around to avoid damage.

maan :) +1 .. couldnt say it better

 

Dps is boring and dungeon with bunch of dps rolling all over the place, jumping into the wall and trying to outdace boss with it is something i dont want to be part of ...

I get it, you are just angry that there are more important role than your dps .. but man, get over it

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1367

5/12/13 4:00:49 PM#23
Originally posted by TheScavenger

Since MMOs have removed the healer class. Why not the tank as well? A group is FORCED to have a tank, without a tank you can't do anything. Granted, a healer is beneficial...but not nearly required as a tank role is.

 

Now, I'm sure there are some that like tanking...like wise...there are some that like healing. But, a tank is just too required in a MMO. Plus, tanks are so rare to find....even rarer than healers usually are. This makes finding groups much harder.

 

Removing the tank would speed up the group gathering process, remove the forceful need of certain classes in a group and this benefits getting into a group quick and easy. Now, could just remove both tank and healer...this way, no class is forceful needed. Then everyone has a role to play in a group, and you don't wait 30 minutes to over an hour (in the lesser populated MMOs) to wait for a certain class that almost no one plays.

 

MMOs should just keep the most populated roles. That being damage and support. These two roles are the most common (so much easier to find a group if that is all there is). This would also help balance, and make PvP far better as well.

 

 

The mmo I play has healing and tanks. Thanks
  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1367

5/12/13 4:01:55 PM#24
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by Thresh
GW2 has done away with the trinity. Look at its group PvE combat - pisspoor at best. Bunch of people chaotically rolling around to avoid damage.

maan :) +1 .. couldnt say it better

 

I feel the exact same way about gw2 lol
  asrlohz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 663

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

5/12/13 5:00:44 PM#25
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by Thresh
GW2 has done away with the trinity. Look at its group PvE combat - pisspoor at best. Bunch of people chaotically rolling around to avoid damage.

maan :) +1 .. couldnt say it better

 

Dps is boring and dungeon with bunch of dps rolling all over the place, jumping into the wall and trying to outdace boss with it is something i dont want to be part of ...

I get it, you are just angry that there are more important role than your dps .. but man, get over it

In case you were trying to reply to me, no. It was an example. I would love to see dungeons where the optimal party would consist of squishy mages that had to melt a weapon encased in ice with firespells or heavy tanks having to outlast a golem trying to escape from certain death.

 

I believe that you are the angry one. The one whom cannot fanthom innovation. You are the lowest common denominator which is trying to grasp onto something that is clearly flawed. I never claimed that the Trinity is bad. But it isn't good either. It should exist but it should not limit the game to a dungeon party to two DPS, one tank and one healer as the most optimal party.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12276

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

5/12/13 5:04:26 PM#26
Originally posted by Dogblaster

I am not playing ANY mmorg that has no trinity ... again.

 

trinity is way to superior, fun and best just to ignore it ... everyone dps? everyone self healer? nah thank you. rpgs were always about roles

If a person never tried PvP at all and never experienced PvE outside of EQ/WOW mechanics, I can easily see them thinking the way you do.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

5/12/13 5:13:42 PM#27

All dps?

-or-

All hybrid healer/tank/dps?

And.....because GW2 doesn't have healers.....why does that mean they have been 'removed'?

Seems to me NW has a healer. Looks like they haven't gone anywhere.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/12/13 5:14:00 PM#28
???

Healers and tanks have their place in pvp done right.
  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

5/12/13 5:21:10 PM#29
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by Thresh
GW2 has done away with the trinity. Look at its group PvE combat - pisspoor at best. Bunch of people chaotically rolling around to avoid damage.

maan :) +1 .. couldnt say it better

 

Dps is boring and dungeon with bunch of dps rolling all over the place, jumping into the wall and trying to outdace boss with it is something i dont want to be part of ...

I get it, you are just angry that there are more important role than your dps .. but man, get over it

This is exactly the  problem with the system. Roles by themeselves shouldnt make one more important than the other, it should be the player himself. Thats why GW2 is such a fantastic pve game, you are set apart by actual skill and not a role.

I just think that people who say this kinda stuff are selfish players. Why should a player be punsihed by liking dps style gameplay?

  Hatefull

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/09/04
Posts: 750

Your tears make my gun work better.

5/12/13 5:23:44 PM#30
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Dogblaster

I am not playing ANY mmorg that has no trinity ... again.

 

trinity is way to superior, fun and best just to ignore it ... everyone dps? everyone self healer? nah thank you. rpgs were always about roles

If a person never tried PvP at all and never experienced PvE outside of EQ/WOW mechanics, I can easily see them thinking the way you do.

I have played every game you mention and I tend to disagree with you...and your evident elitism.  Ignoring the second part of my statement I disagree with you completely about EVE.  They use stealth bombers (rogues), carriers (support/cc) I can't remember the bigger boats (been awhile and I have TBI, so meh) but they most definitely build for tanking and pure damage.  So in that regard, you are full of crap at the least.

The trinity works for people that like working as a team to accomplish something.  The big issue I see is trying to make one toon or type of toon that can both PvE and PvP equally well.  To my way of thinking, a tank has really no place in PvP.  They are the last toon targeted and for good reason, they generally do crap damage. 

Basically, leave PvE with the trinity, and figure out something else for PvP.  This is coming from a guy that plays PvE/PvP PC, consoles, PnP you name it I game it.  

I don't hate on innovation, but lets not remove the roles and team from RPG games please.

If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

5/12/13 5:23:58 PM#31
Who is we?  Not all of us play GW2, I have a healer in many MMO's.  We didn't remove them.

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  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1612

5/12/13 5:24:57 PM#32
Originally posted by Damage99

Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

 

Great plan.

On the other side you could explain it like this:

"in a cookie cutter themepark MMO you can't do sh*t if you don't have a group to fall back on."

Multiplayer does NOT mean that you are forced to grouphug 100% of the time. It just means a lot of players on 1 single server.

Blizzard has brainwashed you all....

 

 

I take it you don't take a sh*t with your family in the toilet room to hold your hand.

 

Although you have some weirdo's.....

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  User Deleted
5/12/13 5:26:51 PM#33

Once again, another person looking to do away with roles because it's too hard for them to find a group.  

Sorry it's such an inconvenience to get your dungeon run going but these types of suggestions do nothing to improve game play.  

Unfortunately, some developers are attempting to attract players like the OP by continuing to strip away core elements of the MMO genre in favor of convenience.  

Even more unfortunate is the fact that the players who think it's such a good idea to remove these classes really don't even like MMO's but instead of finding another genre, they bitch and moan about being inconvenienced by the game play mechanics that the genre was built on. 

Go play an FPS or single player RPG.  There are TONS of those games out there and none of them require you to wait for a tank or healer.

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1612

5/12/13 5:28:29 PM#34
Originally posted by fat_taddler

Once again, another person looking to do away with roles because it's too hard to find a group.  

Sorry it's such an inconvenience to get your dungeon run going but these types of suggestions do nothing to improve game play.  

Unfortunately, some developers are attempting to attract players like the OP by continuing to strip away core elements of the MMO genre.   Even more unfortunate is the fact that the players who think it's such a good idea to remove these classes really don't even like MMO's but instead of finding another genre, they bitch and moan about being inconvenienced by the game play mechanics that the genre was built on. 

Go play an FPS or single player RPG.  There are TONS of those games out there and none of them require you to wait for a tank or healer.

You sir, are also brainswashed by Blizzard by the fact that you think a MMO MUST be designed around a healer/tank/dps class group doing all content.

 

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1566

5/12/13 5:31:22 PM#35
Originally posted by TheScavenger

Since MMOs have removed the healer class. Why not the tank as well? A group is FORCED to have a tank, without a tank you can't do anything. Granted, a healer is beneficial...but not nearly required as a tank role is.

 

Now, I'm sure there are some that like tanking...like wise...there are some that like healing. But, a tank is just too required in a MMO. Plus, tanks are so rare to find....even rarer than healers usually are. This makes finding groups much harder.

 

Removing the tank would speed up the group gathering process, remove the forceful need of certain classes in a group and this benefits getting into a group quick and easy. Now, could just remove both tank and healer...this way, no class is forceful needed. Then everyone has a role to play in a group, and you don't wait 30 minutes to over an hour (in the lesser populated MMOs) to wait for a certain class that almost no one plays.

 

MMOs should just keep the most populated roles. That being damage and support. These two roles are the most common (so much easier to find a group if that is all there is). This would also help balance, and make PvP far better as well.

 

Really! did i miss the news that MMO's have removed the healing class.

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  User Deleted
5/12/13 5:31:31 PM#36
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by fat_taddler

Once again, another person looking to do away with roles because it's too hard to find a group.  

Sorry it's such an inconvenience to get your dungeon run going but these types of suggestions do nothing to improve game play.  

Unfortunately, some developers are attempting to attract players like the OP by continuing to strip away core elements of the MMO genre.   Even more unfortunate is the fact that the players who think it's such a good idea to remove these classes really don't even like MMO's but instead of finding another genre, they bitch and moan about being inconvenienced by the game play mechanics that the genre was built on. 

Go play an FPS or single player RPG.  There are TONS of those games out there and none of them require you to wait for a tank or healer.

You sir, are also brainswashed by Blizzard by the fact that you think a MMO MUST be designed around a healer/tank/dps class group doing all content.

 

You sir have no idea what you're talking about.  Roles like tanks and healers were around long before WoW.    I realize that you probably started playing MMO's when WoW came out so I'll give you a pass.

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1612

5/12/13 5:34:55 PM#37
Originally posted by fat_taddler
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by fat_taddler

Once again, another person looking to do away with roles because it's too hard to find a group.  

Sorry it's such an inconvenience to get your dungeon run going but these types of suggestions do nothing to improve game play.  

Unfortunately, some developers are attempting to attract players like the OP by continuing to strip away core elements of the MMO genre.   Even more unfortunate is the fact that the players who think it's such a good idea to remove these classes really don't even like MMO's but instead of finding another genre, they bitch and moan about being inconvenienced by the game play mechanics that the genre was built on. 

Go play an FPS or single player RPG.  There are TONS of those games out there and none of them require you to wait for a tank or healer.

You sir, are also brainswashed by Blizzard by the fact that you think a MMO MUST be designed around a healer/tank/dps class group doing all content.

 

You sir have no idea what you're talking about.  Roles like tanks and healers were around long before WoW.    I realize that you probably started playing MMO's when WoW came out so I'll give you a pass.

My first MMOs were UO and EQ, tuvm, but I think it's a shame that you can't think outside the themepark cookie cutter template.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  ZoeMcCloskey

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 1126

INTJ, fun is fun except when it's not

5/12/13 5:36:30 PM#38
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Damage99

Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

 

Great plan.

I agree with you. This would be the perfect compromise in terms of balance. This would make PvP far better, and no one would worry about one class being overpowered by 1 dps or underpowered by 1 dps.

...I don't think he was being serious, mate.

 

Also, there is something called "Perfect Imbalance" (or Imperfect Balance). For example, look at league of legends and you'll notice that sometimes one extremely OP champion is released. And there is no argument against it. The champion is just over the top OP. At this moment people are forced to switch tactics against this opponent by playing champions that before were really unpopular but turned out to have a great kit against this new OP threat. This is what makes it all so intriguing.

 

Much like in MMO's how spellcasters hit really heavy and might have great CC and escape mechanisms, a well placed rogue could take that threat out of the picture because the spellcaster was not ready for that. However that wouldn't work too well against a tank in most cases.


The reason I keep playing LOL and find it so fun is the paper-rock-scissors-endlessly of it all.  So many random outcomes for party composition and how those parties play out against each other.  I have gotten better at predicting which team will "win" based on the 5v5 but am still very often surprised when the outcome goes completely against what I expect.

On the subject at hand.  People grr about the holy trinity and all that but it does bring a sense of being "needed" for what you bring to the table.  That said I do like GW2 and still have been playing it but ironically given the subject of this, I like to be a tank most of all.  In GW2 it is fairly hard to be in any way a reliable tank in any traditional sense.  The closest I come to it is with my Necromancer built to be a brick wall.

Eh I think the holy trinity is here to stay in one form or another, at least until some game company hires me to setup a system for them.

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6509

"I fight so you don't have to."

5/12/13 5:36:48 PM#39
Originally posted by Damage99

Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

 

Great plan.

Yeah, and while we are at it. Let's just have one type of weapon and armor as well. 

How far will this dumbing down of MMOs go?

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1612

5/12/13 5:41:54 PM#40
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Damage99

Better yet all MMO's should just have 1 class that everyone plays and is exactly the same that way you dont need to depend on anyone else in the MULTIPLAYER world.

 

Great plan.

Yeah, and while we are at it. Let's just have one type of weapon and armor as well. 

How far will this dumbing down of MMOs go?

As long as players keep subbing on such games.

If the income is rising/steady, then the ppl behind those games will keep thinking they are doing a good job. Money says all.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

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